Why visit the PRO?

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Ye Old One

Why visit the PRO?

Legg inn av Ye Old One » 13 jun 2006 19:54:45

Following a mention that I planned a trip to the PRO in Kew I got a
private email which raised an interesting point that I thought the
group would benefit from a short discussion on this board.

The message read
======================================================================
I hope I'm not insulting an experienced researcher of medieval
manuscripts, but I thought I ought to mention, before you arrange a
visit to the PRO, that like all medieval documents this petition will
be in Latin, with many words difficult to interpret due to
abbreviation to just a few letters, written in a medieval hand which
differs substantially from early modern hands, and in an extremely
formulaic style which can be difficult to decipher. If you haven't
worked with original medieval records before you might find the visit
frustrating and the journey wasted.

If you've done this before then I do apologise for mentioning these
matters.

Regards,
======================================================================

Now I must be honest (or my Grandmother will come back to haunt me)
and say I don't have a dickybird's chance of reading more than the odd
word in latin, and I'm not that good on really old handwriting either.
But I did know that in advance.

So why waste time going to the PRO to see documents? Easy - to judge
if they are worth ordering high quality digital copies and to find out
just how large the file is.

One of the problems with the PRO site from the day they started it is
that they give no idea of the number of pages, their quality or state
of preservation. Now I understood that when the site was first
launched the details were just a copy of pre-existing index/catalogue
files. But I always found it hard to understand that a count of pages
was never included in that information.

At the moment the only way to find out what is there is to ask for an
estimate for printing/digitizing, but you still don't actually know
what is there. So you have to order their jpeg images which helps....
sometimes but costs yet more money :)

So, a day out in Londinium with an afternoon at the PRO sounds like a
very good idea to me.

--
Bob.

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Why visit the PRO?

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 14 jun 2006 00:43:35

Ye Old One wrote:
Following a mention that I planned a trip to the PRO in Kew I got a
private email which raised an interesting point that I thought the
group would benefit from a short discussion on this board.

The message read
======================================================================
I hope I'm not insulting an experienced researcher of medieval
manuscripts, but I thought I ought to mention, before you arrange a
visit to the PRO, that like all medieval documents this petition will
be in Latin, with many words difficult to interpret due to
abbreviation to just a few letters, written in a medieval hand which
differs substantially from early modern hands, and in an extremely
formulaic style which can be difficult to decipher. If you haven't
worked with original medieval records before you might find the visit
frustrating and the journey wasted.

If you've done this before then I do apologise for mentioning these
matters.

Regards,
======================================================================

Now I must be honest (or my Grandmother will come back to haunt me)
and say I don't have a dickybird's chance of reading more than the odd
word in latin, and I'm not that good on really old handwriting either.
But I did know that in advance.

So why waste time going to the PRO to see documents? Easy - to judge
if they are worth ordering high quality digital copies and to find out
just how large the file is.

One of the problems with the PRO site from the day they started it is
that they give no idea of the number of pages, their quality or state
of preservation. Now I understood that when the site was first
launched the details were just a copy of pre-existing index/catalogue
files. But I always found it hard to understand that a count of pages
was never included in that information.

At the moment the only way to find out what is there is to ask for an
estimate for printing/digitizing, but you still don't actually know
what is there. So you have to order their jpeg images which helps....
sometimes but costs yet more money :)

So, a day out in Londinium with an afternoon at the PRO sounds like a
very good idea to me.


Hi Bob and others

Many thanks for your information. For those thinking of ordering
digital copies of medieval documents online from PRO a word of caution.
You are only able to get low resolution digital images (150 dpi) sent
to you via the Internet. Generally speaking these documents, as I found
out, are extremely difficult to decipher because of the resolution. It
is better to order high resolution colour digital images on a CD-ROM. I
found 300 dpi resolution to be satisfactory. However in some
circumstances even a higher resolution might be necessary. I found
digital images to be better than paper copies, as you can magnify
difficult parts using your photo software programs. Also if necessary
you can enhance the image, by adjusting tone, contrast, and sharpen edges.

When requesting an estimate they also require you pay 10 pounds which is
subtracted from the price of your order when made.

Despite all the difficulties with these documents, it is good fun trying
to translate them. I am only a beginner in transcribing and translating
these documents. If anyone wants to pursue research in this area, I
found the following to be of assistance in translating these documents.

1. There are many sources online to help with abbreviations. See e.g
http://www.bibliographics.com/PALAEOG-lite/HECTOR.htm
2. "The Record Interpreter" compliled by Charles Trice Martin, publisher
Phillimore. This is extremely helpful with the abbreviations.
See also "Introduction of the Study of the Pipe Rolls" reprinted by
KRAUS REPRINT LTD 1966.
3. "The Revised Medieval Latin Word-List" from British and Irish
sources. prepared by R.E. Latham, M.A. This book is extremely helpful
for words that are commonly used in the medeival documents.
4. The CD-ROM "The Parliament Rolls of Medieval England" by SDE. This
can be ordered online. This CD-ROM has both the text in Latin and
sometimes old french with the corresponding text in English of all the
Parliament Rolls from 1272 to 1504. It has a search engine which allows
you to search for a Latin word you are interested in and find the
corresponding meaning in English. It really comes handy, when you cannot
determine the Latin because of difficulties with the image or
handwriting. The search allows limited wild card searching. But a word
of caution it is a bitch of a program, in that it crashes a lot. Evenso
the information on it and what you can use it for far outweigh its problems.
5. Toronto Deeds online. This database contains many deeds in latin.
Generally no translations. It is useful when you are transcribing latin
text when you are having difficulty with the image or abbreviation.
Allows wild card searching. I have found you can transcribe whole
phrases of latin text.
6. A Good Latin-English Dictionary. I use Cassels Latin Dictionary. I am
sure there are many others.
7. There are software programs available online which attempt to
translate Latin to English. They are not very successful. Though you
may like to check them out.
8. Latin Courses in Grammar. There are a number of them online, which
are very helpful.
9. A friend. Sometimes you get stuck on the transcribtion and/or
translation and cannot seem to move forward. A friend comes in real handy.

Kind Regards

Paul

Queensland
Australia

Renia

Re: Why visit the PRO?

Legg inn av Renia » 14 jun 2006 08:52:24

Many of the medieval documents would not necessarily be counted in the
"number of pages" but in the size of the document. Some of them are 3 or
4 feet wide and just as long.

Renia

Ye Old One wrote:
Following a mention that I planned a trip to the PRO in Kew I got a
private email which raised an interesting point that I thought the
group would benefit from a short discussion on this board.

The message read
======================================================================
I hope I'm not insulting an experienced researcher of medieval
manuscripts, but I thought I ought to mention, before you arrange a
visit to the PRO, that like all medieval documents this petition will
be in Latin, with many words difficult to interpret due to
abbreviation to just a few letters, written in a medieval hand which
differs substantially from early modern hands, and in an extremely
formulaic style which can be difficult to decipher. If you haven't
worked with original medieval records before you might find the visit
frustrating and the journey wasted.

If you've done this before then I do apologise for mentioning these
matters.

Regards,
======================================================================

Now I must be honest (or my Grandmother will come back to haunt me)
and say I don't have a dickybird's chance of reading more than the odd
word in latin, and I'm not that good on really old handwriting either.
But I did know that in advance.

So why waste time going to the PRO to see documents? Easy - to judge
if they are worth ordering high quality digital copies and to find out
just how large the file is.

One of the problems with the PRO site from the day they started it is
that they give no idea of the number of pages, their quality or state
of preservation. Now I understood that when the site was first
launched the details were just a copy of pre-existing index/catalogue
files. But I always found it hard to understand that a count of pages
was never included in that information.

At the moment the only way to find out what is there is to ask for an
estimate for printing/digitizing, but you still don't actually know
what is there. So you have to order their jpeg images which helps....
sometimes but costs yet more money :)

So, a day out in Londinium with an afternoon at the PRO sounds like a
very good idea to me.

Ye Old One

Re: Why visit the PRO?

Legg inn av Ye Old One » 14 jun 2006 10:54:24

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:52:24 +0300, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:

Many of the medieval documents would not necessarily be counted in the
"number of pages" but in the size of the document. Some of them are 3 or
4 feet wide and just as long.

Renia

Indeed, a very good point Renia.

--
Bob.

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