Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments

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Stewart Baldwin

Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 09 jun 2006 06:34:54

Below are some of my comments on the treatment of the ancestry of
Baldwin I of Flanders in the new "Medieval Lands" website. I think
that this is a good example to look at because it based mostly on
primary sources, and because I recently wrote up my own thoughts on
the ancestry of Baldwin based on many of the same primary sources
(posted a few days ago in four parts), so people can read two
independent interpretations based on similar evidence. The obvious
difference is that the "Medieval Lands" site regards three generations
of ancestry as evidently being real with only weak qualification
(e.g., "The ancestry of Count Baudouin I is uncertain." in the
introduction), whereas my interpretation of the evidence is that at
least the first two of these generations need to be discarded. The
"Medieval Lands" accounts of these three "ancestors" are marked by the
symbol ">" in the usual way for quoting internet postings, followed by
my comments. (Those interested in more details should check my recent
postings and the "Medieval Lands" website.)

LIDERIC, son of --- (-808 or 817, bur Harlebeek). The
Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini records that, while
the Saracens were in Spain, "miles iuvenis christianus
partibus Ulixibone seu Portugallie, regia stirpe
progenitus, Liedricus" was given "terram Flandrie" by
Emperor Charlemagne[10]. The Annals of St Bavo record
that "Lydricus comes Arlebeccensis comitatum Flandrie
suscepit" in 794[11]. The Cartulaire de Saint-Bertin
records the death in 808 of "Lidericus Harlebecanus",
first in the list of counts of Flanders[12]. Graf van
Harlebek. 802. The Annales Formoselenses record the
death in 817 of "Lidricus comes" and his burial at
"Harlabecce"[13].
m ---. The name and origin of the wife of Lideric are
unknown. The Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini refers
to the wife of "miles…Liedricus" as "filiam Gerardi de
Rossilione"[14].

The thing that struck me the most here was the use of late sources.
Thus, the source giving the Portuguese origin, "Chronica Monasterii
Sancti Bertini", is a fourteenth century source, which has Lideric
arriving during the reign of Charles Martel (not noted above, see
transcription and translation in my posting), and the suspicious 60+
year career is also not noted. The list of counts of Flanders cited
in "Cartulaire de Saint-Bertin" is in fact an addition to the
cartulary which was obviously written no earlier than the sixteenth
century in its present form (since it extends to the 1500's), and has
no real authority. The earliest appearance of Lideric in the records,
in Annales Blandinienses, is explained away as an error (below).

ENGUERRAND (-825). The Genealogia Comitum
Flandriæ names "Ingelramnus comitem" son of "Lidricus
Harlebeccensis comes"[15]. The Cartulaire de Saint-
Bertin records the death in 825 of "Engerranus
Harlebecanus", second in the list of counts of Flanders,
although it does not specify that Lideric was his
father[16].
m ---. The name and origin of the wife of Enguerrand >are unknown.

Here, the author has overlooked that Ingelramn was a historical count
of Flanders, whose career actually overlapped that of Baldwin I, and
the obvious question is whether or not this information should have
been overlooked. Ingelramn appears in Annales Blandinienses, on the
same page as cited below. More importantly, in going over the various
versions of "Genealogiae comitum Flandriae", the author (who clearly
used this source) should have looked at the oldest version to mention
Lideric, Ingelramn, etc., "Genealogia comitum Flandriae Bertiniana",
where, on page 305, note 6, he would have been led to the necessary
contemporary references to Ingelramn.

Incidently, the identity of Ingelramn's wife is known (see my
posting). "Medieval Lands" also notes the marriage (see Richwin,
count of Verdun), but did not make the identification.

ODACRE [Audacer/Odoscer] (-837). The
Genealogia Comitum Flandriæ names "Audacer" son of
"Ingelramnus comitem"[17]. The Cartulaire de Saint-
Bertin records the death in 837 of "Audacer", third in
the list of counts of Flanders, although it does not
specify that Enguerrand was his father[18]. The Annales
Blandinienses record the death in 836 of "Lidricus
comes", an error for Odacre unless the information in
other sources concerning the early counts is incorrect,
specifying that he was buried at "Arlabeka"[19].
m ---. The name and origin of the wife of Odacre are
unknown.

As before, the early Annales Blandiniensis is rejected in favor of
later sources of lesser authority.

In addition to the above comments on the "ancestors" of Baldwin I,
"Medieval Lands" adds [in brackets] a supposed daughter to the list of
children of Bladwin I, supposedly the mother of Gauthier:

GAUTHIER . The History of Waulsort monastery names
"Walterus…Rodulfi sororis filius" recording that he
attempted to avenge the death of his maternal uncle[63].
No other reference to this person has been found.]

The History of Waulsort monastery is worthless as a historical source.
The Rodulfus of this legendary source is based on the younger Raoul de
Gouy, and the source is a corrupt description of events just after the
death of Heribert II of Vermandois [see Flodoard's annals under the
year 943; also see Auguste Longnon, "Nouvelles recherches sur les
personnages de Raoul de Cambrai", Romania 38 (1909): 219-253].

Thus, we can see that the careless use of primary sources (and
especially the use of late sources of dubious value) has caused the
creation of errors that were not in ES.

Stewart Baldwin

Chris Phillips

Re: Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 09 jun 2006 09:54:17

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
Below are some of my comments on the treatment of the ancestry of
Baldwin I of Flanders in the new "Medieval Lands" website. I think
that this is a good example to look at because it based mostly on
primary sources, and because I recently wrote up my own thoughts on
the ancestry of Baldwin based on many of the same primary sources
(posted a few days ago in four parts), so people can read two
independent interpretations based on similar evidence.

Thank you for these detailed comments, which I'm sure will be helpful to
Charles Cawley. I don't think he follows the newsgroup, but I plan to copy
relevant comments to him.

Thus, we can see that the careless use of primary sources (and
especially the use of late sources of dubious value) has caused the
creation of errors that were not in ES.

One thing I'm not clear about is how far ES takes the ancestry of Baldwin.
Has everything in "Medieval Lands" before Baldwin (or Odacre?) come from
these late primary sources rather than from ES?

Based on the criticisms that have been posted here, my feeling is still that
it would be helpful for the author to make more use of recent scholarly work
in evaluating and interpreting the primary sources.

Chris Phillips

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 12 jun 2006 23:52:32

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:54:17 +0100, "Chris Phillips"
<cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

One thing I'm not clear about is how far ES takes the ancestry of Baldwin.
Has everything in "Medieval Lands" before Baldwin (or Odacre?) come from
these late primary sources rather than from ES?

Schwennicke's ES (1984), volume 2, table 5, starts the genealogy with
Balduin I Graf von Flandern, d. 879, and does not state a parentage
for him. I don't know what any newer version of ES might say.

"Medieval Lands" has also made heavy use of "Medieval Flanders" by
David Nicholas (London & New York, 1992), which states that Baldwin I
"was the son of one Audacer". Like ES, Nicholas cites mainly
secondary sources, and rarely indicates the primary evidence on which
statements are based.

Stewart Baldwin

Leo van de Pas

Re: Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 jun 2006 02:19:02

Dear Stewart,

If I am not wrong, I doubt families in ES Volume II have been repeated.
Volume I (which I do not have) has been repeated in 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. In
the later volumes is always an additional Index, just to show which volume
has which family. Volume XXII shows still only Volume II for these counts of
Flanders.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Ancestors of Baldwin I: comments


On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:54:17 +0100, "Chris Phillips"
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

One thing I'm not clear about is how far ES takes the ancestry of Baldwin.
Has everything in "Medieval Lands" before Baldwin (or Odacre?) come from
these late primary sources rather than from ES?

Schwennicke's ES (1984), volume 2, table 5, starts the genealogy with
Balduin I Graf von Flandern, d. 879, and does not state a parentage
for him. I don't know what any newer version of ES might say.

"Medieval Lands" has also made heavy use of "Medieval Flanders" by
David Nicholas (London & New York, 1992), which states that Baldwin I
"was the son of one Audacer". Like ES, Nicholas cites mainly
secondary sources, and rarely indicates the primary evidence on which
statements are based.

Stewart Baldwin


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