Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 1261-?

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Rebecca

Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 1261-?

Legg inn av Rebecca » 08 jun 2006 18:02:56

I've come across several versions of this family and most of them fall
into one of 2 catagories regarding the birth/death dates. Notice the
listing of Robert de Lathom and Katherine de Knowsleigh/Knowsley's
children -- there are two "sets" of them because the dates are weird.
Most of the second set of children are born after poor Robert died.
Can anyone verify the dates or help me straighten this out?

Descendants of Robert II de Lathom

1 Robert II de Lathom 1254 - 1302
..... +Katherine de Knowseligh 1261 -
......... 2 Thomas Lemar de Latham 1268/69 - 1369
......... 2 Jane Janette de Latham 1269/70 - 1344
......... 2 Hugh Sebastion de Latham 1272 - 1294
......... 2 Phillip Andrew de Latham 1277 - 1377
......... 2 Joan de Lathom 1296 -
......... 2 Thomas Lathom 1301 - 1370
......... 2 Hugh de Lathom 1303 -
......... 2 Phillip de Lathom 1305 -
......... 2 Isabel De Lathom 1308 -

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I have a second question from the same family line. Sir Thomas de
Lathom (1334 - 1381/82) has 2 wives. Various sources (dubious at best
sometimes) have assigned his daughter, Isabel, Lady Stanley, to both of
them. Who is Isabel's Mother? Joane de Venebles or Isabella
Pilkington?

2 Thomas Lathom 1301 - 1370
.....+Alianore de Lianore 1305 -
.........3 Sir Thomas de Lathom 1334 - 1381/82
..............+Joane De Venables 1334 -
..................4 Isabel deLathom, Lady Stanley 1364 - 1414
.......................+ John deStanley, K.G. 1350 - 1413/14


......*2nd Wife of Sir Thomas de Lathom:
...............+Isabella Pilkington 1348 -
...................4 Isabel deLathom, Lady Stanley 1364 - 1414
.......................+ John deStanley, K.G. 1350 - 1413/14


Regards,
Rebecca

Sutliff

Re: Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 12

Legg inn av Sutliff » 08 jun 2006 22:49:50

Since Edward de Lathom died in 1380 and left no issue by his wife Ellen le
Boteler of Great Marton (daughter of John le Boteler and hsi wife Margaret
de Redmayne) and his only brother Thomas died with only the posthumous
daughter who died at age seven, the only descents of this generation would
be from the four daughters. I am only aware of marriages for Isabel and
Margaret, with only knowledge of issue from the former.

So any descent would necessarily be from previous generations. For some
reason, I seem to remember seeing a Latham pedigree from somewhere and it
was not connected to Lancashire. With France Latham from Bedfordshire, this
would only add to the unlikeliness of a link.

The only generation of this family with a Royal Descent would be the
immediate previous generation of Sir Thomas de Lathom who was buried at
Burscough Priory in 1370. His wife was Eleanor de Ferrers, daughter of John
de Ferrers, 1st Lord Ferrers of Chartley by his wife Hawise de Muscegros.
John de Ferrers would have a descent from Henry I as well as Scottish and
French kings.

HS

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:e6a3tl$ioa$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
Sutliff wrote:
This needs to be pruned quite a bit. As it was not customary until
perhaps the 17th century for individuals to have middle names, you should
automatically be suspicious of any pedigree which includes middle names
for children as below.

Robert de Lathom d. abt 2 March 1325 and his wife Katherine Knowsley d.
aft 1345 had 3 sons (Thomas, Hugh and Philip) and 1 daughter (Joan) for
which there is documentation. See VCH Lancs.



One big question of this family line is, was Frances Latham, wife of
Thomas Dungan and Jeremy Clarke, a descendant of the
early generations of the line? It appears that the actual answer is yes,
but there is no conclusive proof, as the generation before Frances is
somewhat murky. Is there any trace or chance of royal ancestry here? Given
the social class of Clarke, there is the usual amount of chance.

Doug McDonald

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 12

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 jun 2006 22:52:02

Rebecca wrote:

I have a second question from the same family line. Sir Thomas de
Lathom (1334 - 1381/82) has 2 wives. Various sources (dubious at best
sometimes) have assigned his daughter, Isabel, Lady Stanley, to both of
them. Who is Isabel's Mother? Joane de Venebles or Isabella
Pilkington?

Others have pointed out other problems, but:

2 Thomas Lathom 1301 - 1370
....+Alianore de Lianore 1305 -

This too is suspicious. There is no such place as Lianore - it is
nothing but Alianore without the A. A lot of confusion here.

taf

Rebecca

Re: Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 12

Legg inn av Rebecca » 09 jun 2006 19:25:57

Thanks, HS, for this information. It was very useful in helping me
straighten out a couple of the knots in my tree.

I didn't know about the middle names. This is good to know. I wonder
where the original author got the information. (Source is Gregson, The
Antiquites of Lancaster, 1869 -- imported with the other information.)

Thanks again,
Rebecca

Sutliff wrote:
This needs to be pruned quite a bit. As it was not customary until perhaps
the 17th century for individuals to have middle names, you should
automatically be suspicious of any pedigree which includes middle names for
children as below.

Robert de Lathom d. abt 2 March 1325 and his wife Katherine Knowsley d. aft
1345 had 3 sons (Thomas, Hugh and Philip) and 1 daughter (Joan) for which
there is documentation. See VCH Lancs.

As to your second question Sir Thomas de Lathom d. bef 20 Mar 1382, grandson
of the above, was married once only and to Joan de Venables. Her affair with
(her future second husband) Roger Fazarkerley (she married thirdly Sir
Nicholas Harrington) was openly scandalous at the time of Thomas' death.
They had two sons Edward and Thomas and four daughters: Isabel, Cecily,
Katherine and Margaret. It was the son Thomas who was married to Isabel
Pilkington. This Thomas died a year after his father leaving a daughter
Ellen who was born pothumously and died at seven years old. Isabel
Pilkington was mother of Sir Richard Dalton from her second marriage to Sir
John Dalton.

Hope this helps.

HS

Rebecca

Re: Robert de Lathom 1254-1302 m. Katherine de Knowseligh 12

Legg inn av Rebecca » 09 jun 2006 19:29:13

I didn't look it up as a place name, but I thought it looked a bit off.
Now I know that his wife's name was Eleanor de Ferrers and have
corrected my information to reflect that.

Rebecca

2 Thomas Lathom 1301 - 1370
....+Alianore de Lianore 1305 -

This too is suspicious. There is no such place as Lianore - it is
nothing but Alianore without the A. A lot of confusion here.

taf

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