Monday, 22 May, 2006
Dear Doug, Will, Don, et al.,
A recent attempt to access the LOC copies of the Registrum
Honoris de Morton was unsuccessful. However, I did have access
to Wood's edition of Sir Robert Douglas' Peerage of Scotland.
The account given therein for Douglas, Earl of Morton included
the following text and marginal notes concerning Sir James Douglas
of Dalkeith and his wife Agnes Dunbar:
' By her he had issue,
1. James
Carta penes 2. William de Douglas, to whom he gave the
Com. de Mor- barony of Mordingtoun.
ton. D.
Ib. at An. 1. Janet, married to Sir John Hamilton
1381. D. of Cadzow.
Ib. ad An. 2. Margaret, married to Philip Arbuthnott
1380. D. of Arbuthnott.
Ib. D. 3. Agnes, married to Sir John Livingston
of Calendar.
Ib. D. 4. _____, married to Tweedie of Drumelzier. '[1]
With some luck, the relevant text from the Morton charters will
be obtained and subject to further scrutiny.
I discussed the matter further with Andrew MacEwen, who feels
that the Tweedie marriage was likely to a sister (not daughter) of
Sir James Douglas, but he did suggest obtaining the underlying
documents, and reviewing the original of Sir Robert Douglas'
Peerage. He agreed that Margaret Douglas (wife of Philip
Arburthnott) was not a daughter of Agnes Dunbar: further, he
stated that a mortification by Sir James Douglas in 1406 made it
clear that he had only two wives (Agnes Dunbar and Egidia Stewart),
so that Margaret Douglas was certainly illegitimate, and that if
the Douglas who married Tweedie was in fact a daughter of
Sir James Douglas, she too would have been illegitimate.
Doug (Richardson) had noted in a previous post to this thread
on 8 May 2006 that he believes that there were two successive men
named Walter de Tweedy, and that " For reasons not known to me,
the Tweedie website collapses the two Walter's into one person"[2].
Given the overall chronology as is currently developed, this
appears most likely to be the case. I would suggest the
sequence of generations would appear as follows:
Approx. Birth Name(s)
Date
born say 1330 James Tweedy
I
I
born say 1350 Walter Tweedy, m. say 1380 NN Douglas
_____________I_________
I I
born say 1380/85 Christian Walter Tweedy 'junior'
= William de fl. 1426-1435
Caldecote I
I _____I_________
I I I
born say 1400/10 Elizabeth James Elizabeth
de Caldecote Tweedie Tweedie
= ca 1421 = ca 1422 = 1434 or before
William Katherine Richard
Livingston Caverhill Brown
This version appears to me to have the best correlation to
the known chronology. Further, it matches well with the
documentation as currently known:
1. Walter Tweedy of Drumelzier (fl. ca 1373/1380) was
the husband of a daughter of Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith (d. 1420), not by Agnes of Dunbar but by a
previous mistress (likely also mother of Margaret
(Douglas) Arbuthnott).
2. Elizabeth Tweedy, intended wife of Richard Brown,
is shown as a granddaughter of the sister (actually
half-sister) of the younger Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith (d. 1441). As a great-niece of Sir James,
she would have been accurately described as
<neptem> in the 1434 document, but with this understood
as meaning "great-niece", not "niece" or "granddaughter".
3. Elizabeth de Caldecote, related to William Livingston
of Kilsyth in the third degree of kindred ( <tertio
consanguinitatis gradu> in the dispensation of 1421)
would be accurately reflected as such (they were in
fact related in the 2nd and 3rd degree, under this
reconstruction, but the "third degree of kindred"
description was typical of the time).
I am appending a more detailed pedigree for your review. Any
additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. In
particular, should anyone have access to the full Registrum
Honoris de Morton, relevant insights from the Morton charters
would be especially welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Sir Robert Douglas (John Philip Wood, ed.), The Peerage of
Scotland (Edinburgh: G. Ramsay and Company, 1813), II:267.
[2] Douglas Richardson, <Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de
Caldcotis (and Livingston of Kilsyth)>, SGM, 8 May 2006.
=========================================
1 William Tweedie
----------------------------------------
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles
Children: James (->1389)
1.1 James Tweedie
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Feb 1389[2]
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles
' JAMES OF TWEEDIE, perhaps a son of William, or at least a grandson
of Roger. Among the Drumelzier writs preserved at Duns Castle are
two charters in his favour, one dated 8th December, 1355, by Robert,
the Steward of Scotland, as King's Lieutenant, confirming to him all
his heritable possession within the Kingdom because he had been
received to the faith and peace of the King by William, Lord of
Douglas, as Warden of the Eastern Marches - this shows that Tweedie
must have been in trouble of some sort - and the second charter,
which is by King David II. on 4th July, 1358, confirms the first.
He was also the proprietor of part of Hopkailzie, and there is a
confirmation by David II. in 1362-3 of a mortification by Margaret
of Monfode, the widow of Alexander of Cockburn of Stirling, of nine
merks sterling due to her by Tweedie from Hopkailzie for a
chaplainry in Dalmeny. On 8th February, 1389-90, he is mentioned
in a document dealing with Hartree estate in the parish of
Kilbucho. ' [Buchan III:418 et seq.[2], courtesy Kerry Sipe ]
' In 1362 there is mention of payment of nine merks yearly due from
the lands of Hopkelloche by James of Tuedi and his heirs.'
[Kerry Sipe[1], cites RMS I:130[3]]
' James of Tuedy of Drummelzier was made her nominee by Jonet
of Graham, Lady of Watchtone, by a document dated 8th February
1389, for the purposes of dealing with the lands of
Hartree. ' [Hist. MSS. Comm., Edmonstone, p. 78, courtesy
Michael Forbes Tweedie]
" Jacobo de Twedy ", witness [together with Sir William Monypenny,
Sir Nicholas Douglas and others] to will of Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith, 30 Sept 1390 [Bannatyne Misc. II:105-112[4]]
Children: Walter
1.1.1 Walter Tweedie
----------------------------------------
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles
' On the 27th March 1373, the name of "Walter de Tuedy", "locum
tenens Vicecomitis de Peblis" appears in proceedings recorded in
the Exchequer Rolls, and in the same records, under the date 12th
June 1388, we find mention of a "William de Tuedi" in matters
connected with the borough of Peebles. ' [M. F. Tweedie] [10]
_____________________________
Stevenson identifies the heraldic seal of one ' Caldecote,
Christiana, widow of William Caldecote, daughter of Walter Twedy '
[Scottish Heraldic Seals, II:268[5]]. She evidently was his daughter.
re: his wife:
she was (according to Wood's edition of Douglas' Peerage] a
daughter of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith (d. 1420) as indicated
by the following entry, part of the list of the issue of Sir James:
' 4. _____, married to Tweedie of Drumelzier. ' [Douglas,
Peerage II:267[6], cites " Ib. [Carta penes Com. de Morton
ad An. 1380] D." Andrew MacEwen notes that the initial
"D." is Wood's notation that the reference cited is in
Sir Robert Douglas' Peerage of Scotland (1764 edition)]
[note that Wood identifies her as a daughter of Agnes Dunbar.
This is virtually impossible.]
Spouse: NN Douglas
Father: Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith(-1420)
Mother: NN [not married]
Children: Christiana (->1424)
Walter (->1435)
1.1.1.1 Christiana Tweedie
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 Jan 1424[5]
' Kyrstiane de Caldcottis ', her heraldic seal is identified on a
charter of 8 Jan. 1424-5:
' Caldecote, Christiana, widow of William Caldecote, daughter
of Walter Twedy. A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the
latter charged with a star in dexter and two escallops.
Legend (l.c.): KYRSTIANE DE CALDCOTTIS. Diam. 1 3/16 in.
Laing, ii. 158. Reg. Ho. Ch., 6 Jan. 1424-5, two of same
date - Cast. ' [Scottish Heraldic Seals, II:268[5]]
Spouse: William de Caldcotis, of Graden, co. Berwicks.
Death: bef 6 Jan 1424[5]
Father: John de Caldcotis (->1387)
Children: Elizabeth (->1459)
1.1.1.1.1 Elizabeth de Caldcotis
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Nov 1459[5]
had a third of the lands of Graden, co. Berwicks. as her
maritagium or inheritance[7]
' dilecti filii nobilis viri Willelmi de Leuynston Domicelli et
delict in Christo filie nobilis mulieris Elisabeth de Caldcotis
Domicelle', postnuptial dispensation granted 12 Nov 1421, they
being related in the 3rd degree of consanguinity ["tertio
consanguinitatis gradu" - Stuart p. 453[8]]
her heraldic seal is identified on a charter of 8 Nov. 1459:
' Caldecote, Elizabeth, daughter of William Caldecote of Grayden,
wife of William Livingston of Balcastel (or of Kilsyth). A shield
of arms: A saltire and chief, the latter charged with three
escallops. Foliage at top and sides of shield. Legend
(l.c.): S ELISABETH DE LEVINGSTON. Diam. 1 1/16 in.
Laing, ii. 159. Reg. Ho. Ch., No. 357 (2), 8 Nov. 1459 - Cast. '
[Scottish Heraldic Seals, II:268[5]]
her arms according to E. Livingston:
' a saltire and chief, the latter charged with three escallops'
[Livingston, citing seal in Laing, ii. 159][7]
Spouse: William Livingston, of Wester Kilsyth and Balcastell
Death: bef 20 Apr 1460[9],[7]
Father: Sir John Livingston (-1402)
Mother: Agnes Douglas (->1421)
Marr: bef 12 Nov 1421[7],[8]
Children: Edward Livingston of Balcastell (-<1482)
William (->1481)
Alexander
1.1.1.2 Walter Tweedie
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 19 Jul 1435[2]
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles.
' The next proprietor whom it has been possible to trace is
WALTER TWEEDIE, who may have been a grandson of James, but it
is impossible to say definitely as there is a gap in the charter
records for about seventy years. He granted, on 19th March, 1426,
to his kinsman Thomas Fraser of Fruid, for his counsel and good
deeds, an annual rent of 44s. from the lands of Drumelzier, to
which deed his son and heir, James Tweedie, was a witness.
At the close of the same year, Fraser resigned to Walter Tweedie
for ever all his lands in Drumelzier. Walter was still alive on
19th July, 1435, when he witnessed a charter at the Castle of
Peebles (Neidpath). It is said that he married a daughter of
Sir James Douglas and his first wife, Agnes Dunbar. He was
succeeded by his son James. ' [Buchan III:418 et seq.[2],
courtesy Kerry Sipe ]
Children: James (-<1473)
Elizabeth
Patrick
1.1.1.2.1 James Tweedie
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 15 Dec 1473[5]
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles
' JAMES TWEEDIE married about 1422, by papal dispensation, Katherine
of Caverhill, in the parish of Manor, this dispensation being
doubtless required owing to the degree of kinship between the two.
He was appointed on 27th February, 1436-7, by Sir James Douglas,
Lord of Dalkeith, as his bailie for infefting Richard Brown in
Hartree. This Richard Brown married Elizabeth of Tweedie, and she
is called 'neptem' of Sir James Douglas, which means either niece
or grand-daughter. Probably she was James Tweedie's sister, and
the presumption is that Walter, their father, had married a sister
of Sir James Douglas. On 8th March, 1455-6, James Tweedie received
a letter of maintenance from King James IV., who promised to
defend him in all his lawful actions as one of his own familiars,
and in return Tweedie promised faithful and lifelong service, and
to keep his house of Drumelzier always ready at the King's
disposal. In 1473 he resigned to the burgh of Peebles his share of
the patronage of St. John's altar in the parish church of Peebles.
James Tweedie, so far as known, had two sons, Walter, who
succeeded, and Patrick, who is referred to as a witness at Hartree
in 1466.' [Buchan III:418 et seq.[2], courtesy Kerry Sipe ]
' Next in date, among the original writs of the family comes a
dispensation by the Bishop of Dunblane, dated 25th January 1422, at
the Abbey of Cambus Kenneth, for the marriage of James Tweedie of
Drummelzier with his cousin Katherine of Caverhyll, which was
required apparently because they were related to each other in the
third and fourth degrees of consanguinity,...' [M. F. Tweedie[10]]
' James Tuedy of Drummelzar ', member of the jury [together with
his eldest son Walter] holding the inquest on the lands of Thomas
Moffat, retour dated at Edinburgh, 18 May 1457 :
' 5. Retour of an Inquest made by Thomas of Preston, sheriff
depute of Edinburgh, and the following jury, John Johnstoun of
that Ilk, William Fresale [Fraser] of Frude, Nigel Ewart of
Bodsbeck, William Johnstoun of Park, George Hoppringle of Wrangham,
James Tuedy of Drummelzar, Walter Tuedy, his eldest son, John
Carruthers of Holmends, Thomas Dalzel of Buchax, Edward Crichtoun,
George of Dunwethy, Robert Corry of Newby, William Johnstoun,
Robert Fresale, and John Moffate, who, being sworn, declare that
George of Moffate is the lawfull and nearest heir of the deceased
Thomas of Moffate, his grandfather, in an annual rent of twelve
marks sterling, upliftable from the kings new customs of the burgh
of Edinburgh; that he is of lawful age; that the said annual rent
is now worth twelve merks yearly, and as much in time of peace;
and that it was in the hands of the king through nonentry of the
heir, since the death of the said Thomas Moffat, forty-seven years
ago or thereby. Done in the Tolbooth of Edinburgh, 18 May 1457. '
[Hope-Johnstone MSS., p. 11, no. 5]
record of the heraldic seal of James Tweedie of Drummelzier, charter
dated 15 Dec 1473:
' TWEEDIE, James, of Drummelzier. A shield of arms: A saltire and
chief, the latter charged in the centre with a star. Foliage at
top and sides of shield. Legend (l.c.): SIGILLUM IACOBI DE [TU]EDE.
Diam. 1 1/16 in. Peebles Ch., 15 Dec. 1473 (1) - Cast; do., used
by Wm. Veitch (3) - Cast. ' [Stevenson, III:634[5]]
this charter evidently the one referred to in the foundation of the
chaplainry at St. Andrews (Peebleshire):
' In 1473 a chaplainry was founded at the Altar of St. John the
Baptist in the Parish kirk of St. Andrew in Peebles, with the end
mainly of offering prayers and celebrating masses for the health
of the souls of "James Tuedy of Drummelzier, William Cockburne
of Henriland (Henderland),...., and of their ancestors and
successors, and also of the souls of all who have paid the debt
of all flesh in wars and combats (in guerris sive duellis) between
the foresaid parties. " [Veitch, pp. 301-2[11]]
Spouse: Katherine Caverhill
Marr: aft 25 Jan 1422[2]
Children: Walter
1.1.1.2.1.1 Walter Tweedie
----------------------------------------
of Drumelzier, co. Peebles
' Walter Tuedy, his eldest son', member of the jury [together with
his father] holding the inquest on the lands of Thomas Moffat,
retour dated at Edinburgh, 18 May 1457 [Hope-Johnstone MSS., p. 11,
no. 5]
1.1.1.2.2 Elizabeth Tweedie
----------------------------------------
with regard to her (apparent) brother James Tweedie, Buchan wrote:
' He was appointed on 27th February, 1436-7, by Sir James Douglas,
Lord of Dalkeith, as his bailie for infefting Richard Brown in
Hartree. This Richard Brown married Elizabeth of Tweedie, and she
is called 'neptem' of Sir James Douglas, which means either niece
or grand-daughter. Probably she was James Tweedie's sister, and
the presumption is that Walter, their father, had married a sister
of Sir James Douglas. ' [Buchan III:418 et seq.[2], courtesy
Kerry Sipe ]
1. Kerry W. Sipe, "The Tweedy Family of Virginia," Tweedie Genealogy
Archive: History: Kerry Sipe, http://www.tweedie.org/.
2. J. W. Buchan and Rev. H. Paton, "A History of Peeblesshire,"
Glasgow: Jackson, Wylie and Co., 1925-27 (3 vols.), courtesy
Kerry W. Sipe.
3. "Registrum Magni Sigilli Regum Scotorum," The Register of the
Great Seal of Scotland, ed. John Maitland Thomson, LL.D.,
Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1912 [A.D. 1306-1424]].
4. "Testamenta Domini Jacobi de Douglas, Domini de Dalketh Militis,
M.CCC.XC. - M.CCC.XCII.," The Bannatyne Miscellany, Edinburgh:
printed for The Bannatyne Club, 1836 (Vol. II) [reprinted by
the AMS Press, New York), Full Title: The Bannatyne Miscellany;
containing Original Papers and Tracts, Chiefly Relating to the
History and Literature of Scotland.
5. John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D., Scottish
Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical, Collegiate,
Burghal, Personal, Glasgow: printed by Robert MacLehose & Coy.,
Limited at the University Press, 1940 (Vol. II).
6. Sir Robert Douglas, "The Peerage of Scotland," full title: The
Peerage of Scotland: containing an historical and genealogical
account of the nobility of that kingdom, from their origin to
the present generation, Edinburgh: G. Ramsay and Company, 1813,
2 vols.
7. Edwin Brockholst Livingston, "The Livingstons of Callendar and
their Principal Cadets: The history of an old Stirlingshire
family," Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1920, .pdf images
provided by Genealogy.com, http://www.genealogy.com/
re: the Livingstons of Kilsyth (cf. Chapter IX, THE LIVINGSTONS
VISCOUNTS OF KILSYTH), pp. 210 et seq.
8. Andrew Stuart, "Genealogical History of the Stewarts," : from
the earliest period of their authentic history to the present
times, London: Printed for A. Strahan, and T. Cadell Jun. and
W. Davies, in the Strand, 1798, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com, includes texts of
dispensations relevant to the Stewart family.
9. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
10. Michael Forbes Tweedie, "The History of the Tweedie, or Tweedy,
Family," London, W.P. Griffith & Sons, Ltd., 1902, courtesy
Google.
11. John Veitch, "The History and Poetry of the Scottish Border,"
Glasgow: James MacLehose, 1878, courtesy Googlebooks.
Tweedie of Drumelzier (was SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabet
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Gjest
Tweedie of Drumelzier (was SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabet
Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 16:34:02
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- ↳ Oppland - ukjent sted
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