New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

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Denis P. DuLong

New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 21 mai 2006 15:24:56

Folks,

For all of you who descend from Philippe Amiot and Anne Convent, I want
to direct your attention to the Longueval research project at
http://www.habitant.org/longueval/. There you will see the most recent
update on this project. Based on the research M. Gagné has completed
with his colleague in France, it is now certain that Anne Convent,
through her mother Antoinette de Longueval, descends from a medieval
French king.

There are probably more French Canadians who descend from Anne Convent
than who descend from any other royal gateway ancestors documented to
date for French Canadians.

M. Gagné and his co-author are determined to do more than just provide
evidence of this royal gateway. They will be providing more information
about the Amiots then has been previously available to their descendants.

In summary, this team of researchers is doing work on par with what the
famous Archange Godbout accomplished when he researched in France before
World War II. M. Gagné has been carefully reading through the surviving
original documents relating to the Amiots and other families associated
with Antoinette de Longueval.

He needs to conduct at least one more research session in France to
finish going through the documents. I can tell you from personal
experience working on the Baillon and Le Neuf projects with M. Gagné and
the late René Jetté, that conducting original research in French records
is not an inexpensive proposition. I have financially contributed to
this project and I would ask you to please consider doing so as well.

Regards,

JP

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 01:56:35

Dear Friends,

Since John Dulong announced the update of our webpage at
http://habitant.org/longueval and the fact that Amyots were descendants
of royalty, the undersigned has been submerged by emails. While the
interest people have in this research is appreciated, their willingness
to try and assist in some way other than a financial contribution is
not helpful.

Many people want to send in the result of the Internet searches they
have done on Amyot, Convent, and de Longueval. Please understand the
co-authors are well aware of what is on the Internet. We did an
exhaustive search of everything in the Canadian Archives, everything
published in print or online before launching our research in France.
The solution to this research problem can not be found on the Internet!

The co-authors have spent many months of their lives in the French
archives searching for original records. As notarial and church
registers have been computer indexed and are widely available online
for Québec, the vast majority of people in North America seem to
believe that it is same is true for France. They falsely believe that
they can complete their French genealogy by simply consulting the
Internet from the comfort of their home. This is simply not the case.

While our archivists in Québec were making indexes, French archivists
were called to go to the army or trying hard to carry their archives
into a safe haven during the wars. So there are no indexes over there.
We have to look at the deeds that survived many wars one after one and
it takes a LOT of time!!!

Antoinette de Longueval did not have any brother in France who would
have reasons to keep the family records to prove his noble roots, and
the search conducted by the co-authors in the French Archives is
unique, and, unfortunately, very costly. It is for this reason that
the authors are asking for people's financial contribution.

Those who think they help by going on Google and then send us their
findings do not understand the difficultly of the task and the work
necessary to achieve the success of this search. Often, for many
people, genealogy is a hobby easily accomplished with what is available
on the Internet. However, genealogy as a science demands that original
records be studied to verify the facts and frequently calls for
research to be done in foreign archives. Hence the expensive nature of
this project and consequently the plea for financial assistance.

Again, your enthusiasm to help by sending what you find on the internet
is misdirected. The cold hard truth is that doing original research in
France is expensive. So please consider donating funds to the project
in whatever amount you can afford, so this research project will be
completed in a short term.

Have a good day everyone, R.-Yves G.



Denis P. DuLong wrote:
Folks,

For all of you who descend from Philippe Amiot and Anne Convent, I want
to direct your attention to the Longueval research project at
http://www.habitant.org/longueval/. There you will see the most recent
update on this project. Based on the research M. Gagné has completed
with his colleague in France, it is now certain that Anne Convent,
through her mother Antoinette de Longueval, descends from a medieval
French king.

There are probably more French Canadians who descend from Anne Convent
than who descend from any other royal gateway ancestors documented to
date for French Canadians.

M. Gagné and his co-author are determined to do more than just provide
evidence of this royal gateway. They will be providing more information
about the Amiots then has been previously available to their descendants.

In summary, this team of researchers is doing work on par with what the
famous Archange Godbout accomplished when he researched in France before
World War II. M. Gagné has been carefully reading through the surviving
original documents relating to the Amiots and other families associated
with Antoinette de Longueval.

He needs to conduct at least one more research session in France to
finish going through the documents. I can tell you from personal
experience working on the Baillon and Le Neuf projects with M. Gagné and
the late René Jetté, that conducting original research in French records
is not an inexpensive proposition. I have financially contributed to
this project and I would ask you to please consider doing so as well.

Regards,

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 30 mai 2006 04:20:31

On 29 May 2006 17:56:35 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:

Denis P. DuLong wrote:

Denis ?



Denis

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 31 mai 2006 02:40:59

Denis Beauregard wrote:
On 29 May 2006 17:56:35 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:

Denis P. DuLong wrote:

Denis ?

I use the name as my alter-ego for email purposes to deflect spam.
Sorry to confuse. Long story short, my mother was going to name me
Denis Paul, but the TV show Denis the Menace had started and she was
persuaded to change my name, so I got John Patrick. I always think I
would have made a much better Denis Paul than a John Patrick!

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 31 mai 2006 02:55:49

On Tue, 30 May 2006 21:40:59 -0400, "Denis P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:

Denis Beauregard wrote:
On 29 May 2006 17:56:35 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:

Denis P. DuLong wrote:

Denis ?

I use the name as my alter-ego for email purposes to deflect spam.
Sorry to confuse. Long story short, my mother was going to name me
Denis Paul, but the TV show Denis the Menace had started and she was
persuaded to change my name, so I got John Patrick. I always think I
would have made a much better Denis Paul than a John Patrick!

Interesting. But spammers don't care about the name. They gather
emails, not names, so this is almost useless.




Denis

ID

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av ID » 31 mai 2006 11:04:12

I have made some checks on the internet and then on the spot. If you
want to have _true_ information do not rely on internet. Only trip to
France will do.

Keep excellent job.
ID

Many people want to send in the result of the Internet searches they
have done on Amyot, Convent, and de Longueval. Please understand the
co-authors are well aware of what is on the Internet. We did an
exhaustive search of everything in the Canadian Archives, everything
published in print or online before launching our research in France.
The solution to this research problem can not be found on the Internet!

The co-authors have spent many months of their lives in the French
archives searching for original records. As notarial and church
registers have been computer indexed and are widely available online
for Québec, the vast majority of people in North America seem to
believe that it is same is true for France. They falsely believe that
they can complete their French genealogy by simply consulting the
Internet from the comfort of their home. This is simply not the case.

While our archivists in Québec were making indexes, French archivists
were called to go to the army or trying hard to carry their archives
into a safe haven during the wars. So there are no indexes over there.
We have to look at the deeds that survived many wars one after one and
it takes a LOT of time!!!

Antoinette de Longueval did not have any brother in France who would
have reasons to keep the family records to prove his noble roots, and
the search conducted by the co-authors in the French Archives is
unique, and, unfortunately, very costly. It is for this reason that
the authors are asking for people's financial contribution.

Those who think they help by going on Google and then send us their
findings do not understand the difficultly of the task and the work
necessary to achieve the success of this search. Often, for many
people, genealogy is a hobby easily accomplished with what is available
on the Internet. However, genealogy as a science demands that original
records be studied to verify the facts and frequently calls for
research to be done in foreign archives. Hence the expensive nature of
this project and consequently the plea for financial assistance.

Again, your enthusiasm to help by sending what you find on the internet
is misdirected. The cold hard truth is that doing original research in
France is expensive. So please consider donating funds to the project
in whatever amount you can afford, so this research project will be
completed in a short term.

Have a good day everyone, R.-Yves G.



Denis P. DuLong wrote:
Folks,

For all of you who descend from Philippe Amiot and Anne Convent, I want
to direct your attention to the Longueval research project at
http://www.habitant.org/longueval/. There you will see the most recent
update on this project. Based on the research M. Gagné has completed
with his colleague in France, it is now certain that Anne Convent,
through her mother Antoinette de Longueval, descends from a medieval
French king.

There are probably more French Canadians who descend from Anne Convent
than who descend from any other royal gateway ancestors documented to
date for French Canadians.

M. Gagné and his co-author are determined to do more than just provide
evidence of this royal gateway. They will be providing more information
about the Amiots then has been previously available to their descendants.

In summary, this team of researchers is doing work on par with what the
famous Archange Godbout accomplished when he researched in France before
World War II. M. Gagné has been carefully reading through the surviving
original documents relating to the Amiots and other families associated
with Antoinette de Longueval.

He needs to conduct at least one more research session in France to
finish going through the documents. I can tell you from personal
experience working on the Baillon and Le Neuf projects with M. Gagné and
the late René Jetté, that conducting original research in French records
is not an inexpensive proposition. I have financially contributed to
this project and I would ask you to please consider doing so as well.

Regards,

JP

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 01 jun 2006 02:30:25

Denis Beauregard wrote:

Interesting. But spammers don't care about the name. They gather
emails, not names, so this is almost useless.

Forgot to mention that the alias goes with a different email address
too. Just try posting a message to dulongd@habitant.org. You will get
an error message and a web address to go to in order to email me. Since
I made this change the amount of spam has dropped. It use to be after I
posted anything to UseNet News I would get a flurry of junk mail for
about two weeks. Now that no longer happens.

But let us get back to what is important, the Longueval project.

It amazes me that more people are not interested in this project.
Antoinette de Longueval probably has far more descendants through the
Amiots than Catherine Baillon has through the Mivilles. Certainly, more
people descend from Antoinette than from the Le Neuf brothers. I would
think, given that one of the best genealogists in Québec is working on
this case and is making significant progress, that there would be more
interest than for the Baillon project. Perhaps French Canadians are
suffering from "royal gateway fatigue"?

I know that I am excited by the progress of this research and look
forward to seeing Yves Gagné and his co-author's publication of their
results. He is so close, he just needs to go through some more records
in France to completely nail down his findings. I strongly believe that
this research is going to be a model of a well done and thorough
research project in original records in France.

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 01 jun 2006 04:20:22

On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:30:25 -0400, "Denis P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:

But let us get back to what is important, the Longueval project.

It amazes me that more people are not interested in this project.

One major difference is that when the royal line of Catherine was
found, it was the 3rd or 4th attempt to do so.

The 1st, by the Marle line, documented as wrong for a while and many
people still believing in it.

The 2nd, by the Thiembronne and the Louvain manuscript, which was
finally declared to be a dead one.

The 3rd, not very discussed, by the Braque and Montmorency because it
was not confirmed on the Montmorency side (even if a cousin of them
married a Montmorency few years later and this other Montmorency-
Braque wedding is accepted).

Finally, the long awaited lines by the Ghistelle etc. and by the
Chabot (Chasot in D'Hozier).

It was some kind of saga.

The Longueval story is quite different. Denis Amyot made a first
guess, focussing on the Longval and Longueval similarity and the
Longueval noble family. I published it later as a speculation but
some people took it as granted. Maybe it was my mistake so that
this line had no saga at all.

If you compare to the Gueret-Dumont line, for example, which
appeared in this newsgroup but didn't make it to journals yet,
you will see there is indeed limited interest, even if you may
add 1,000 or 10,000 ancestors with those royal lines.

But if you want to estimate the interest, go to google and look
for qrd30 royal. You will find no external link at all, except
fake sites (they clone other sites to attrack readers) and
sites with messages from newsgroups.

Compare with rd600 royal and you will see where is the interest !

Antoinette de Longueval probably has far more descendants through the
Amiots than Catherine Baillon has through the Mivilles. Certainly, more
people descend from Antoinette than from the Le Neuf brothers. I would
think, given that one of the best genealogists in Québec is working on
this case and is making significant progress, that there would be more
interest than for the Baillon project. Perhaps French Canadians are
suffering from "royal gateway fatigue"?

In my new database version, I have:

Catherine de Baillon

1600-1699 = 4
1700-1799 = 517
1800-1899 = 126
1900-1999 = 153

Jean Leneuf and Marguerite Legardeur (roughly 150% more)

1500-1599 = 1
1600-1699 = 46
1700-1799 = 1312
1800-1899 = 279
1900-1999 = 177

Amiot (roughly 25% more than Leneuf)

1600-1699 = 15
1700-1799 = 1718
1800-1899 = 385
1900-1999 = 659
2000-2099 = 3

I know that I am excited by the progress of this research and look
forward to seeing Yves Gagné and his co-author's publication of their
results. He is so close, he just needs to go through some more records
in France to completely nail down his findings. I strongly believe that
this research is going to be a model of a well done and thorough
research project in original records in France.

Indeed !


Denis

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jun 2006 14:06:14

Denis Beauregard wrote:
The Longueval story is quite different. Denis Amyot made a first
guess, focussing on the Longval and Longueval similarity and the
Longueval noble family. I published it later as a speculation but
some people took it as granted. Maybe it was my mistake so that
this line had no saga at all.


Hello everyone,

I am no so sure that "Denis Amyot made a first guess". As you know,
Tanguay in the XIXth Century put in his dictionnaire that Anne
Convent's mother was Antoinette de Longval. At the beginning of the
XXth, you can see a book on the Amyot family at the library of the
Soc.généalogique canadienne française, where the author says that
Drouin told him that his family was going up to the time of the
crusaders, without giving any information. As a teenager, Antoinette
was, among others, one of my targets and I am sure that it was the case
for many French Canadian genealogists. Denis Amyot was the first to
draft a lineage and to give this lineage together with his genealogical
notes (Fonds Amyot) to the Société généalogique canadienne
française, having seen an Antoinette in a genealogy of the Longueval
family in the Fonds d'Hozier in Paris and decided that she was the one,
without any further proof. And it is when Denis Beauregard made his
finding public (and made this topic on the top of the news!), that
René Jetté and me discussed if this lineage was real, and we both
concluded (it was our very humble opinion, the whole respectfully
submitted) that it was not, and that the odds were that Antoinette had
to descend from a more humble branch of the family. I wish to add that
the genealogy of the Fonds d'Hozier is very far from being complete.

Have a good day everyone, R.-Yves Gagné

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 01 jun 2006 19:38:31

Le 1 Jun 2006 06:06:14 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.french:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

The Longueval story is quite different. Denis Amyot made a first
guess, focussing on the Longval and Longueval similarity and the
Longueval noble family. I published it later as a speculation but
some people took it as granted. Maybe it was my mistake so that
this line had no saga at all.


Hello everyone,

I am no so sure that "Denis Amyot made a first guess". As you know,
Tanguay in the XIXth Century put in his dictionnaire that Anne
Convent's mother was Antoinette de Longval. At the beginning of the
XXth, you can see a book on the Amyot family at the library of the
Soc.généalogique canadienne française, where the author says that
Drouin told him that his family was going up to the time of the

Tu as fait la recherche. Tu as passé je ne sais combien de centaines
d'heures à fouiller cette famille avant d'arriver à un résultat. Tu
penses qu'il y a 50 ou 100 ans, un représentant en France de
l'institut Drouin (dont les archives françaises ont pratiquement
disparu) aurait pu arriver au même résultat ? Je pense plutôt
qu'on y est allé au pif et qu'on n'en savait pas beaucoup. Il y avait
bien certains indices (Tanguay utilise la particule mais écrit
Longval), mais combien de familles ont des indices similaires sans
qu'on n'aboutisse nulle part ? Je me rappelle par exemple d'un
article des Mémoires où on faisait descendre les Lemoine de Guillaume
le Conquérant.

crusaders, without giving any information. As a teenager, Antoinette
was, among others, one of my targets and I am sure that it was the case
for many French Canadian genealogists. Denis Amyot was the first to
draft a lineage and to give this lineage together with his genealogical
notes (Fonds Amyot) to the Société généalogique canadienne
française, having seen an Antoinette in a genealogy of the Longueval
family in the Fonds d'Hozier in Paris and decided that she was the one,
without any further proof. And it is when Denis Beauregard made his
finding public (and made this topic on the top of the news!), that

Je viens de vérifier dans les archives des forums Usenet de Google
et le message le plus ancien de ma part date de 2001, alors que je
disais que quelqu'un travaillait sur le sujet. En 1998, j'avais
indiqué le début de la lignée parmi d'autres spéculations et comme
spéculation. En fait, l'erreur grossière que j'ai faite dans le
DGO était de présenter l'ascendance BILLY comme acceptée, ce qui
n'était pas le cas. Au moins, j'ai présenté l'ascendance
LONGUEVAL comme spéculation.

René Jetté and me discussed if this lineage was real, and we both
concluded (it was our very humble opinion, the whole respectfully
submitted) that it was not, and that the odds were that Antoinette had

Moi aussi, j'en avais discuté avec René. À première vue, c'était
possible même si c'était trop juste (Antoinette se serait mariée trop
jeune selon les moeurs de l'époque, il me semble). Le vrai problème
était la différence de niveau social.

to descend from a more humble branch of the family. I wish to add that
the genealogy of the Fonds d'Hozier is very far from being complete.

Have a good day everyone, R.-Yves Gagné


Denis

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jun 2006 23:42:31

Denis Beauregard wrote:
Le vrai problème était la différence de niveau social.

Hello,

This was the point. One of the things that René teached me, was to
look at the person(s) with whom, somebody who is supposed to have a
prestigious lineage, gets married. People tended to marry within their
"class", so to claim that the grand daughter of a D'Estrées
would marry into a humble class was almost impossible. So it has been
obvious that the lineage suggested by Denis Amyot was not really
possible, and research in France, on the spot where our ancestors
lived, had to be done. The difficulty with this family, above the fact
that there is no more church register and notary register where they
lived : as much as our ancestors made a long travel when they come to
New France, as much each generation of these ancestors travelled a lot
before the Amyot family left France.

Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné
Longueval research projet
habitant.org/longueval

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 02 jun 2006 03:42:09

Denis Beauregard wrote:

But if you want to estimate the interest, go to google and look
for qrd30 royal. You will find no external link at all, except
fake sites (they clone other sites to attrack readers) and
sites with messages from newsgroups.

Compare with rd600 royal and you will see where is the interest !

I guess this does not surprise me. Even if you take into account that
there are more people of English ancestry living in the USA with royal
gateways, it appears that French Canadians are less concerned with these
royal lineages. Could it be because they live under a monarchy,
constitutional and remote it may be, but Québec is surrounded by symbols
of royalty? Perhaps they are underwhelmed by the prospect of royal
ancestors. Americans in contrast appear fascinated with the monarchy
that they revolted against. In my small local public library there must
be 50 books on the Windsors!

Or perhaps French Canadians (and I include Franco-Americans here) are
equally interested in royal ancestors as (non-Franco-)Americans, but
they are confident that the research being conducted is in good hands
and they need do nothing but wait for the results to be published. But
this is shortsighted. It is expensive to do original research to
document royal gateways.

I seem to recall reading that back in the late nineteenth century expert
genealogists were retained by wealthy patrons and genealogical societies
to systematic search through original records in England. We really
need something like this for France. I realize that Fichier origines
has been very important in documenting the origins of French-Canadian
pioneers, but what I am thinking of is sponsored searches to document
particular families, mostly noble, with a chance of extending their
pedigree back many generations.

Fr. Archange Godbout sort of did this, I think it was in the 1930s, on
extended research trips to France when he reviewed many original records
(some subsequently destroyed in war) for both common and prominent
families. But it would be grand to have a team of researchers sponsored
to spend several years in France doing this kind of research.

I suppose in essence this is what Yves and his co-author are doing on
the de Longueval project, but with very limited funding.

In my new database version, I have:

Catherine de Baillon

1600-1699 = 4
1700-1799 = 517
1800-1899 = 126
1900-1999 = 153

Jean Leneuf and Marguerite Legardeur (roughly 150% more)

1500-1599 = 1
1600-1699 = 46
1700-1799 = 1312
1800-1899 = 279
1900-1999 = 177

I am really surprised that Jacques Le Neuf has more descendants in your
database than Catherine de Baillon. Do you include some of his
descendants who returned to France after the Conquest?

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 02 jun 2006 04:41:47

Le Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:42:09 -0400, "Denis P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

In my new database version, I have:

Catherine de Baillon

1600-1699 = 4
1700-1799 = 517
1800-1899 = 126
1900-1999 = 153

Jean Leneuf and Marguerite Legardeur (roughly 150% more)

1500-1599 = 1
1600-1699 = 46
1700-1799 = 1312
1800-1899 = 279
1900-1999 = 177

I am really surprised that Jacques Le Neuf has more descendants in your
database than Catherine de Baillon. Do you include some of his
descendants who returned to France after the Conquest?

I have some, but the quantity is small.

If you check directly the figures, you'll find that the child with the
more descendants is Michel, father of Anne married to Antoine
Desrosiers, then by Alexandre Rault with 2 children married before
1700. So, it is a matter of being married earlier.

Catherine de Baillon was married in 1669 while Mathieu Leneuf was
married in 1599 and his 4 children (if we count Michel as married)
between 1622 and 1636. This gives you about 2 more generations.


Denis

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jun 2006 14:02:27

John Dulong wrote :

Perhaps French Canadians are suffering from "royal gateway fatigue"?

Hello,

Anyone who clicks on soc.gene... is obviously a passionate and I
don't believe that there is "fatigue" concerning the interest in
the results of the researches. And I can't qualify as "fatigue"
the very low amount of people (less than the amount of fingers in a
hand) that have been contributing financially to support the
researchers, as it has been the same in the Baillon and LeNeuf
projects, where the financial burden of the searches was mostly
supported by its co-authors (the names of the contributors were always
written in the final publications of the searches). What I think is
that the majority of people do not understand what the researches are
really, and how expensive they are. One person offered to give me
$500 (Canadian dollars!) for the Longueval project at the condition
that his name was put as co-author! For many others, there is a
"google_ation" of genealogy : you just put a name on google, and
you have the lineage, no need to go out of your home, and no need to
ask questions about the source of information, especially if the
lineage is brilliant (why contradict it?). I still believe that people
are still very interested in finding new lineages for their ancestors
that came to the New World. The only "fatigue" can come from the
researchers, who, at a point, cannot support the financial burden of
the searches anymore!

Have a good day,
R.-Yves Gagné
Longueval Research Project
http://www.habitant.org/longueval

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 03 jun 2006 15:02:49

I was being a little facetious when I mentioned "royal gateway fatigue."
But I do think that French Canadians dwell less on royal connections
than Americans do. Do you think this is correct or off the mark? There
could be a number of reasons for this. One major reason could be that
in the past French Canadian genealogists pushed the idea that their
ancestors where sturdy habitants with perhaps a few minor nobles and
that very few people could trace back to major nobles or a royal
lineage. Is this a correct view? I have always thought of our friend
René Jetté as being the first to really break away from this worldview.

As for Internet genealogists, yes, there are too many of them and they
have no idea what is involved in original research. Ultimately, this is
why I think genealogical societies have to step forward to pool their
resources and sponsor focused research projects. To change the topic a
little, for decades it has been claimed that many early Acadian settlers
orginated from the region of Loudon, department of Vienne, Perche.
Although no research has yet verified that substantial numbers of them
are indeed from this area, it would be grand if Acadian genealogical
societies would pool their resources and launch a systematic research
project to once and for all support or deny this theory. Likewise, well
organized and financially supported research projects would greatly
facilitate the effort to document French Canadian noble families.

Meanwhile, we have to rely on the kindness of people to support small
research projects. I think most people do not donate because they know
that if the sit back dedicated researchers will spend their own money to
solve the problem. However, this attitude really is unproductive. If
it takes X time to solve a complex genealogical problem with financial
support, then without it the time is X * 10 or 20 or 30. Meaning that
it takes longer to solve the problem and keeps the researcher locked on
one issue longer than necessary and does not allow them to move on to
the next research project. I will always wonder what more René Jetté
would have accomplished if we had completed the Baillon and Le Neuf
projects sooner and if he lived longer.

I am grateful for the financial support we received on the Baillon and
Le Neuf projects but it was a fraction of what we eventually spent.
Nevertheless, it really helped when it came to paying for some of the
microfilms from the BN. Furthermore, it is great to have the support as
a morale builder, knowing that people trust you enough to in essence bet
on your research skills is a great feeling.

Just think what would have happened if every Baillon descendant,
interested in genealogy, contributed just $10 a piece to that project.
It would have enabled us to send one of the researchers to southern
France and northern Italy to do even more research on the Vintimille de
Lascaris gateway. Moreover, we would have had more then enough to
research her ancestry and have a surplus left over to apply to other
projects.

Lastly, before someone thinks we ask for financial assistance on these
research projects to make a profit, let me dispel that idea completely.
We make a few pennies on every Baillon book sold and that money is
plowed back into research. We have never made any money off of the Le
Neuf project. All the researchers on these projects donate at least 90
percent of the funds. If you take our time into account, then we
donated many thousands dollars in hours of research to these projects.

To get back to the de Longueval research project. It is the most
promising royal gateway project for French Canadians and it deserves
support.

I cannot believe that someone would expect to be made a co-author simply
because they donated money to a project. Wow!

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 03 jun 2006 16:46:04

Le Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:02:49 -0400, "Denis P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

lineage. Is this a correct view? I have always thought of our friend
René Jetté as being the first to really break away from this worldview.

He was the third, after Archange Godbout (but his French searches
cover 10,000 pages in all, from about 100,000 for all his collection)
and Aimé Trottier (he published some articles on the topic). I think
Denis Amyot made a lot of searches while he worked in some embassy
in Belgium (as an ambassador ?) but at the noble level, I think he
worked only on the Convent line (and Yves et all. found his guess
was wrong) and Chaubert line (bourgeois from Orleans). Robert Leblant
(specialist of Acadian genealogy) made some noble searches too. All
the other noble genealogists I have seen based their search on the
work of other people for critical years except when they work with
one family. At this time, Yves is the only searcher to work with
original sources and not second hand books like Pere Anselme or
D'Hozier.

René was the first genealogist to do both a general topic
dictionary (his DGFQ) and to include either popular lines (D'Amour
and Baillon) or refering to journals for many more. I am the
continuator to some extent (like the PRDH is) as I try to gather
all the new material into one self-included database.

As for Internet genealogists, yes, there are too many of them and they
have no idea what is involved in original research. Ultimately, this is

Most will copy secondary sources as is. And anyway, very few people
will check original records even for Quebec records. Fortunately,
some are checking what they enter in their database (see the recent
Mailloux posting in SGF) and react when they see a discrepancy.

why I think genealogical societies have to step forward to pool their
resources and sponsor focused research projects. To change the topic a
little, for decades it has been claimed that many early Acadian settlers
orginated from the region of Loudon, department of Vienne, Perche.
Although no research has yet verified that substantial numbers of them
are indeed from this area, it would be grand if Acadian genealogical
societies would pool their resources and launch a systematic research
project to once and for all support or deny this theory. Likewise, well
organized and financially supported research projects would greatly
facilitate the effort to document French Canadian noble families.

Which Acadian genealogical societies ? I think there is only AGE
that is a society beamed at Acadian genealogy. SHA is an historical
society and publishes more scholar papers compared to what a
genealogical society would publish. AFAIK, the only journal that
is publishing a lot of European searches about the Acadian is the
AGCF (Amitiés généalogiques canadiennes-françaises), usually made
by Jean-Marie Germe. Quite interesting, their membership includes
many French with Acadian roots.

I cannot believe that someone would expect to be made a co-author simply
because they donated money to a project. Wow!

I assisted to a presentation on noble genealogy recently. Living
far from large genealogical libraries, that searcher focussed on the
web as his main source for information. When you see all the
corrections published in Héraldique et Généalogie for example, then
it is obvious very few web sites are reliable for medieval genealogy.
And when you see that of the few sites that have a lot of New France
material (compared to someone publishing his ancestry or the
descendants of someone), of those few sites, one is copying Tanguay
as is, and another is copying Jetté as is, and then many genealogists
will copy them without further verification... Even the major sites,
those that are believed to be reliable may have some important
drawback. I am currently checking my sources for my own CD-ROM
planned for this summer and one "official" database has so many errors
in it that it is obvious it was never checked by an independent
searcher. Many references are wrong (I try to check the original
source to avoid copy mistakes). I was lucky enough that René Jetté
sent me his manuscript for the Leneuf line to reduce the number of
copy mistakes.


Denis

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 jun 2006 18:41:01

Denis P. Dulong wrote :

One major reason could be that in the past French Canadian genealogists
pushed the idea that their ancestors where sturdy habitants with
perhaps a few minor nobles and that very few people could trace back to
major nobles or a royal lineage. Is this a correct view? I have
always thought of our friend René Jetté as being the first to really
break away from this worldview.

Hello everyone,

When I was a teenager (last millennium), I read some letters written in
1959-1961 (written before I was a teenager, of course!) by a former
director of the Société généalogique canadienne-française, and
letters sent to him by the late (as of 1960) Father Archange Godbout.
In 1960, no French Canadian had any lineage to Charlemagne, it was
clearly mentioned, while Father Godbout was confident that this would
come one day. René Jetté was certainly the first one to decide that,
while there were certainly mainly French settlers who were descendants
from royalty, we should for at least one of them have in hand the
authentic documents that prove each generation, up to Charlemagne.
When working out of Canada, this is a very long and costly task.

What people do not know : while we published in 1997 in the Mémoires
de la Société généalogique canadienne française an article aiming
to prove with a document each generation between Catherine de Baillon
and Philippe Auguste, king of France, René had gathered the proofs
for each generation between Philippe Auguste and Charlemagne, this
part was not published.

Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 09 jun 2006 01:45:18

Denis Beauregard wrote:
He was the third, after Archange Godbout (but his French searches
cover 10,000 pages in all, from about 100,000 for all his collection)
and Aimé Trottier (he published some articles on the topic).

Denis, I am unfamiliar with Aimé Trottier. Did he publish in the
Mémoires? (By the way, I recently purchased the Mémoires on CD
1944-2003, so I can search for some of his articles). I would like to
see some of his research if it is in the Mémoires.

Which Acadian genealogical societies ? I think there is only AGE
that is a society beamed at Acadian genealogy. SHA is an historical
society and publishes more scholar papers compared to what a
genealogical society would publish. AFAIK, the only journal that
is publishing a lot of European searches about the Acadian is the
AGCF (Amitiés généalogiques canadiennes-françaises), usually made
by Jean-Marie Germe. Quite interesting, their membership includes
many French with Acadian roots.

On second thought, using the Acadian example was weak because, as you
suggest, they lack a genealogical organization as large and
sophisticated as the Société généalogique canadienne française.

Still my original point remains that genealogical societies should not
only publish the results of research projects into original records back
in France, but they should sponsor such research. If they can not or
will not sponsor researchers, then perhaps there could be a special
prize awarded for the best published paper using original documents to
establish in detail at least three generations back in France.

JP

Denis P. DuLong

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis P. DuLong » 09 jun 2006 02:15:50

rygagne@hotmail.com wrote:
When I was a teenager (last millennium), I read some letters written in
1959-1961 (written before I was a teenager, of course!) by a former
director of the Société généalogique canadienne-française, and
letters sent to him by the late (as of 1960) Father Archange Godbout.
In 1960, no French Canadian had any lineage to Charlemagne, it was
clearly mentioned, while Father Godbout was confident that this would
come one day. René Jetté was certainly the first one to decide that,
while there were certainly mainly French settlers who were descendants
from royalty, we should for at least one of them have in hand the
authentic documents that prove each generation, up to Charlemagne.
When working out of Canada, this is a very long and costly task.


I believe that René Jetté thought that more royal gateways could be
found for French Canadians, but my impression is that he was becoming a
little frustrated with the cost and time involved in doing research in
France. Especially because so many of the families that must be studied
were not tied to the French court and their records are not found in the
Cabinet des titres. As I am sure you know, it is just too expensive and
time consuming for most North Americans to do extensive research in
France. In addition, you have to have the language skills and be able
to decipher the old documents. This is why most French Canadian
genealogists will not make much progress back in France.

I know that in the case of my non-noble Dulong ancestors I was lucky
that the Mormons have microfilmed the parish register of Lieurey back to
the late sixteenth century. I was able to use this microfilm to extend
my Dulong ancestry back several generations. However, if I want to go
back further I am going to have to read through the notarial records for
the region. A few years ago I was able to spend an afternoon at the
Departmental Archives in Eure. In a four hour period I was only able
read through half the papers of a single notary. I just do not have the
time or money (or for that matter the real expertise) to read through
all the relevant notarial records. I certainly do not have the funds to
hire a professional genealogist to read through these documents for
several weeks. However, if enough of my cousins would chip in, then we
could hire someone in France to do this research.

This is why I am so impressed by your research Yves. I have just a
small inkling of the difficulties you have overcome and the effort you
have made to read ALL the relevant notarial papers. Unlike Québec,
there are very few indexes and tools in France to assist in searching
through the notarial papers. Certainly, nothing approaching the
Parchemin project.

If many professional and amateur genealogists in North America are
frustrated by doing research in original documents in France, then I
think people like you Yves, who have the skills and opportunity to do
this research should be supported by individuals and societies. This
might be the only effective way we will uncover the royal gateways that
René Jetté speculated were still out there waiting to be found.

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 09 jun 2006 03:49:10

Le Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:45:18 -0400, "Denis P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

He was the third, after Archange Godbout (but his French searches
cover 10,000 pages in all, from about 100,000 for all his collection)
and Aimé Trottier (he published some articles on the topic).

Denis, I am unfamiliar with Aimé Trottier. Did he publish in the
Mémoires? (By the way, I recently purchased the Mémoires on CD
1944-2003, so I can search for some of his articles). I would like to
see some of his research if it is in the Mémoires.

Yes. He published long ago an article about the D'Amours line
which is likely the first royal line for a Quebec ancestor. The
d'Abbadie line by the Bearn de Bonasse was found earlier, however
(but has some hypothetical links).

Still my original point remains that genealogical societies should not
only publish the results of research projects into original records back
in France, but they should sponsor such research. If they can not or
will not sponsor researchers, then perhaps there could be a special
prize awarded for the best published paper using original documents to
establish in detail at least three generations back in France.

If it was that easy...

But the main sponsorised database is not even double checked (and has
a long of typing mistakes, wrong references, etc.). I know that
because I am now in the process of checking all foreign data in my
database and when reading the original message, then it is obvious
that this double checking was never performed.

Moreover, only a few persons could evaluate those long French lines.
And they are usually those who made similar works. Also, many long
lines are for families that arrived later and thence have much less
descendants.

Some examples:

- Many lines found by Archange Godbout who spent about 3 years in
all in France (roughly during 2 travels in the 1920s and one in the
1950s, maybe one in the 1930s), and continuators like Mme Montagne
in Perche or Roland Auger.
- Many lines by contributors to Fichier Origine (and I am the only
one to massively distribute this kind of information). In some
cases, the original authors want to produce some book but never find
the time for that or never find enough customers to purchase a book.
- I received from René Jetté about 4 inches of documents about
French lines. I published some on them on my site but I evaluate
I have about 70,000 pages of documents to process at this time if
I want to integrate all the material I have.

I found a few lines by myself. For example, Vernier from Claix while
living for a few days in the home of a town consellor and genealogist.
Or the Jarret line where I was the 3rd to process the same data and
found 5 more generations other never saw. I explored some web sites
with records online and found some more.

So, there is already a lot of material. Most of it is available on
my site, at least the names. I will put the details (the page number
of references for example) in the CD-ROM version. But anyone can now
check if something was explored.

The problem is not that we are lacking lines, but that the good lines
are usually documented only locally, by regional armorial or by notary
papers not available online.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mon association de généalogie:
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

Gjest

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jun 2006 12:10:31

Denis Beauregard wrote:

But the main sponsorised database is not even double checked (and has
a long of typing mistakes, wrong references, etc.). I know that
because I am now in the process of checking all foreign data in my
database and when reading the original message, then it is obvious
that this double checking was never performed.

Hello,

Denis, could you be more specific? Which is the "main sponsored
database" that is not double checked?

Yours, R.-Yves Gagné
Longueval Research Project
habitant.org/longueval

Denis Beauregard

Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 09 jun 2006 13:16:25

On 9 Jun 2006 04:10:31 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:

Denis, could you be more specific? Which is the "main sponsored
database" that is not double checked?

Fichier Origine.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mon association de généalogie:
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

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