Saturday, 20 May, 2006
Dear Alex, Tim, Will, et al.,
I spoke with Andrew MacEwen yesterday concerning my conjectures
concerning the identification of the wife of Sir William Douglas of
Lochleven (d. 1421)[1]. He agreed that the relationships set forth
in the dispensation did not match with the presentation in Scots
Peerage (i.e., that Sir William Douglas was married to a daughter
of David Lindsay, 1st Earl of Crawford); and that while he was not
aware of any documentation or source that would further relate to
the matter, he had "no problem" with the conjectures, and that he
"didn't see anything wrong with your theory."
Based upon the above, it does appear that the identification
in Scots Peerage was based on a flawed understanding of the
dispensation itself, and/or of the actual descents of Sir William
Douglas and his wife (to be) from Walter the Stewart (d. 1326). I
think it then reasonable to state the following:
1. Sir William Douglas of Lochleven (d. 1421) had
dispensation to marry Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of
Alexander Lindsay, 2nd Earl of Crawford, as appears from
" a dispensation by Henry, Bishop of St. Andrews, for the
marriage of William Douglas of St. Andrews diocese, and
Elizabeth Lindsay of Brechin diocese, they being in the
third and fourth degrees of consanguinity. " [2]
2. It appears that the marriage to Elizabeth Lindsay did
not occur (likely due to either her death or to marriage
to another individual) and that Sir William Douglas was
married to Christian, most likely a sister of Elizabeth
and another daughter of Alexander Lindsay.
3. The relationships identified between the Lindsay family
and certain descendants of Christian (including
her daughter Elizabeth Douglas, <neptis> of Earl
Alexander Lindsay (d. 1439), and her son Sir John
Auchinleck of that Ilk, " lovit cousin and squire "
of David Lindsay, (5th) Earl of Crawford in a
confirmation of a grant in 1466) serve to confirm this
conjecture.
This will further serve to correct existing confusion, whereby
Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of David Lindsay (1st Earl of Crawford)
and his wife Elizabeth Stewart, is shown on occasion to be married
to Sir William Douglas instead or, or in addition to, her known
husband Sir Robert Erskine [3].
Some statements (documentation not noted) indicate that
Elizabeth Lindsay, a daughter of Alexander Lindsay (the 2nd Earl)
was married to one Simon Glendonwyn: perhaps further evidence
will be found concerning this alleged marriage, which would
serve to account for Sir William Douglas of Lochleven marrying
another Lindsay daughter.
Cheers,
John *
1) Marjory = Walter the = 2) Isabel
Bruce I Steward I Graham
__________I I____
I I
Robert II = 2) Euphemia Sir John Stewart
K of Scots I of Ross of Railston
I_____ I____________
I I
David Lindsay = Elizabeth Sir Henry = Marjory
E of Crawford I Stewart Douglas I Stewart
I of Lugton I
I I
ALEXANDER LINDSAY I
2nd E of Crawford I
_____________I_____________ I____
I I I I
David Elizabeth Christian = 1) Sir William Douglas
3rd Lindsay I of Lochleven
Earl I d. ca. 1421
I = 2) David Wemyss of Wemyss
I = 3) Sir James Auchinleck
I of that Ilk
____________________________I_____________
I I I I
Sir Henry Alexander Sir James ELIZABETH = Richard
Douglas Douglas Douglas Douglas Lovel
of Lugton of Railston <neptis> of
and Lochleven Earl ALEXANDER
NOTES
[1] See prior threads, <SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and
his Lindsay wife (I of II)>, SGM, 11 May 2006, and <SP
Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife (II of
II)>, SGM, 11 May 2006 et seq.
[2] Correction to SP VI:365, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_,
which cites Harl. MS., 6438.
[3] SP III:17, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_. See also
SP V:604, sub _Erskine, Lord Erskine_, which notes an
agreement between Thomas Erskine and David, Earl of Crawford,
dated at Brechin, 20 Dec 1400 that Sir Robert Erskine should
marry a daughter of the Earl.
This relationship is proven by a dispensation for the marriage
of Elizabeth Lindsay's daughter Janet and Walter Stewart of
Lennox, dated at St. Peter's, Rome, 26 April 1421:
' Dispensatio matrimonialis
Walter Steuart of Levenax, Glasgow diocese, and Joneta de
Erskyn, daughter of Robert de Erskyn, knight, St. Andrews
diocese, - that the Pope would dispense them to contract and
remain in matrimony, notwithstanding that they are related
in the third and third degree of consanguinity. Fiat et
petitur. O. Rome, S. Peter's, 6 Kal. May, anno 4, [Calendar
of Scottish Supplications to Rome, 1418-1422, p. 250]
* John P. Ravilious
SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife
Dear John
If I understand correctly,
Christian Lindsay married (1) Sir William Douglaa of Lochleven (2) Sir David
Wemyss of Wemyss (3) Sir James Auchinleck
Have a look Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2547
David Wemyss, of Methil and Wemyss married before 4 February 1423/4
Christian Douglas, they had two daughters and one son, he dies before
September 1430 and she marries Sir James Auchinleck
I would say, obviously, Christian Lindsay and Christian Douglas is one and
the same person.
Sir William Douglas died circa 1421 and as his widow she is called Christian
Douglas.
Hope you agree.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net>; <c@windsong.u-net.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<WJhonson@aol.com>; <Portculis@aol.com>; <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>;
<caramut@bigpond.com>; <rbevan@paradise.net.nz>; <roconnor@es.co.nz>;
<clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk>; <bluecolumbine@comcast.net>;
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>; <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
<fettesi@st.net.au>; <farmerie@interfold.com>; <royalancestry@msn.com>;
<maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com>; <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>;
<pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife
If I understand correctly,
Christian Lindsay married (1) Sir William Douglaa of Lochleven (2) Sir David
Wemyss of Wemyss (3) Sir James Auchinleck
Have a look Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2547
David Wemyss, of Methil and Wemyss married before 4 February 1423/4
Christian Douglas, they had two daughters and one son, he dies before
September 1430 and she marries Sir James Auchinleck
I would say, obviously, Christian Lindsay and Christian Douglas is one and
the same person.
Sir William Douglas died circa 1421 and as his widow she is called Christian
Douglas.
Hope you agree.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net>; <c@windsong.u-net.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<WJhonson@aol.com>; <Portculis@aol.com>; <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>;
<caramut@bigpond.com>; <rbevan@paradise.net.nz>; <roconnor@es.co.nz>;
<clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk>; <bluecolumbine@comcast.net>;
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>; <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
<fettesi@st.net.au>; <farmerie@interfold.com>; <royalancestry@msn.com>;
<maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com>; <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>;
<pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife
Saturday, 20 May, 2006
Dear Alex, Tim, Will, et al.,
I spoke with Andrew MacEwen yesterday concerning my conjectures
concerning the identification of the wife of Sir William Douglas of
Lochleven (d. 1421)[1]. He agreed that the relationships set forth
in the dispensation did not match with the presentation in Scots
Peerage (i.e., that Sir William Douglas was married to a daughter
of David Lindsay, 1st Earl of Crawford); and that while he was not
aware of any documentation or source that would further relate to
the matter, he had "no problem" with the conjectures, and that he
"didn't see anything wrong with your theory."
Based upon the above, it does appear that the identification
in Scots Peerage was based on a flawed understanding of the
dispensation itself, and/or of the actual descents of Sir William
Douglas and his wife (to be) from Walter the Stewart (d. 1326). I
think it then reasonable to state the following:
1. Sir William Douglas of Lochleven (d. 1421) had
dispensation to marry Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of
Alexander Lindsay, 2nd Earl of Crawford, as appears from
" a dispensation by Henry, Bishop of St. Andrews, for the
marriage of William Douglas of St. Andrews diocese, and
Elizabeth Lindsay of Brechin diocese, they being in the
third and fourth degrees of consanguinity. " [2]
2. It appears that the marriage to Elizabeth Lindsay did
not occur (likely due to either her death or to marriage
to another individual) and that Sir William Douglas was
married to Christian, most likely a sister of Elizabeth
and another daughter of Alexander Lindsay.
3. The relationships identified between the Lindsay family
and certain descendants of Christian (including
her daughter Elizabeth Douglas, <neptis> of Earl
Alexander Lindsay (d. 1439), and her son Sir John
Auchinleck of that Ilk, " lovit cousin and squire "
of David Lindsay, (5th) Earl of Crawford in a
confirmation of a grant in 1466) serve to confirm this
conjecture.
This will further serve to correct existing confusion, whereby
Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of David Lindsay (1st Earl of Crawford)
and his wife Elizabeth Stewart, is shown on occasion to be married
to Sir William Douglas instead or, or in addition to, her known
husband Sir Robert Erskine [3].
Some statements (documentation not noted) indicate that
Elizabeth Lindsay, a daughter of Alexander Lindsay (the 2nd Earl)
was married to one Simon Glendonwyn: perhaps further evidence
will be found concerning this alleged marriage, which would
serve to account for Sir William Douglas of Lochleven marrying
another Lindsay daughter.
Cheers,
John *
1) Marjory = Walter the = 2) Isabel
Bruce I Steward I Graham
__________I I____
I I
Robert II = 2) Euphemia Sir John Stewart
K of Scots I of Ross of Railston
I_____ I____________
I I
David Lindsay = Elizabeth Sir Henry = Marjory
E of Crawford I Stewart Douglas I Stewart
I of Lugton I
I I
ALEXANDER LINDSAY I
2nd E of Crawford I
_____________I_____________ I____
I I I I
David Elizabeth Christian = 1) Sir William Douglas
3rd Lindsay I of Lochleven
Earl I d. ca. 1421
I = 2) David Wemyss of Wemyss
I = 3) Sir James Auchinleck
I of that Ilk
____________________________I_____________
I I I I
Sir Henry Alexander Sir James ELIZABETH = Richard
Douglas Douglas Douglas Douglas Lovel
of Lugton of Railston <neptis> of
and Lochleven Earl ALEXANDER
NOTES
[1] See prior threads, <SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and
his Lindsay wife (I of II)>, SGM, 11 May 2006, and <SP
Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife (II of
II)>, SGM, 11 May 2006 et seq.
[2] Correction to SP VI:365, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_,
which cites Harl. MS., 6438.
[3] SP III:17, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_. See also
SP V:604, sub _Erskine, Lord Erskine_, which notes an
agreement between Thomas Erskine and David, Earl of Crawford,
dated at Brechin, 20 Dec 1400 that Sir Robert Erskine should
marry a daughter of the Earl.
This relationship is proven by a dispensation for the marriage
of Elizabeth Lindsay's daughter Janet and Walter Stewart of
Lennox, dated at St. Peter's, Rome, 26 April 1421:
' Dispensatio matrimonialis
Walter Steuart of Levenax, Glasgow diocese, and Joneta de
Erskyn, daughter of Robert de Erskyn, knight, St. Andrews
diocese, - that the Pope would dispense them to contract and
remain in matrimony, notwithstanding that they are related
in the third and third degree of consanguinity. Fiat et
petitur. O. Rome, S. Peter's, 6 Kal. May, anno 4, [Calendar
of Scottish Supplications to Rome, 1418-1422, p. 250]
* John P. Ravilious