Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

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Carl Boyer

Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Carl Boyer » 16 mai 2006 19:02:02

I checked the book I published in 2004, Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans, and found among the twelve children listed for Llywelyn ab Iorwerth an Elen, daughter of his wife Joan Plantagenet (dau. of King John), who died 1253 having married first John le Scot, Earl of Huntingdon and Earl of Chester, and married second Robert de Quincy, who d. 1257, of Colne Quincy, Essex, third son of Saire de Quincy and brother of Roger de Quincy. Robert had an older brother named Robert who d. in 1217 without issue.
This Elen is found in Peter C. Bartrum charts of Welsh Genealogies, 300-1400. The specific chart is Gruffudd ap Cynan 4.
Another daughter, Helen, is listed in The Complete Peerage [5:373 and 8:401-403] and Balfour's Scots Peerage [4:8-10 and 5:576-578]; her mother has not been identified and she is not listed by Bartrum.
Helen married first, Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, who d. 1266, and second, Donald, Earl of Mar.
A word on "ferch" and "ab". The letter "v" is not a Welsh letter, but is English. When you see "verch" that is an English corruption. "Ab" is used in the place of "ap" before a name beginning with a vowel.
While I do not want to use this web site to advertize my book, I will provide ordering details on request. The book has no competition.
Carl Boyer of Santa Clarita


---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 16 mai 2006 23:55:46

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Ah, the Battle of the Books!

I like Mr. Boyer's books.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Gary Smith

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gary Smith » 17 mai 2006 06:35:43

In Welsh a single 'f' is pronounced 'v'. If they'd wanted an 'f' sound, to
make it 'ferch', they'd have written it with two 'f's, which is pronounced
'f'. As many researchers don't speak Welsh, the 'v' is a traditional
substitute in order to get the sound right, thus avoiding real corruption.



"Carl Boyer" <cboyer3154@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20060516170107.52931.qmail@web37214.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
I checked the book I published in 2004, Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain
Americans, and found among the twelve children listed for Llywelyn ab
Iorwerth an Elen, daughter of his wife Joan Plantagenet (dau. of King
John), who died 1253 having married first John le Scot, Earl of Huntingdon
and Earl of Chester, and married second Robert de Quincy, who d. 1257, of
Colne Quincy, Essex, third son of Saire de Quincy and brother of Roger de
Quincy. Robert had an older brother named Robert who d. in 1217 without
issue.
This Elen is found in Peter C. Bartrum charts of Welsh Genealogies,
300-1400. The specific chart is Gruffudd ap Cynan 4.
Another daughter, Helen, is listed in The Complete Peerage [5:373 and
8:401-403] and Balfour's Scots Peerage [4:8-10 and 5:576-578]; her mother
has not been identified and she is not listed by Bartrum.
Helen married first, Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, who d. 1266, and second,
Donald, Earl of Mar.
A word on "ferch" and "ab". The letter "v" is not a Welsh letter, but is
English. When you see "verch" that is an English corruption. "Ab" is
used in the place of "ap" before a name beginning with a vowel.
While I do not want to use this web site to advertize my book, I will
provide ordering details on request. The book has no competition.
Carl Boyer of Santa Clarita


---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1&cent;/min.

Douglas Richardson

Clare-ifications

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 07:28:49

Dear John ~

In your good post today, I see you referred to "Benet" de Clare,
"rector, St Peter's in the East," who was a younger son of Sir Richard
de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford, by his wife, Maud de Lacy.

This churchman's name was actually named Boges (or Boeghes, Beges) de
Clare. He was a well known pluralist. Besides the position you name,
he held many other offices/positions, including Canon of York, Canon of
Exeter, Papal chaplain, Canon of Wells, King's Clerk, Treasurer of
York, Chancellor of Llandaff, Canon of Chichester, and Dean of
Stafford. For interest's sake, I've copied Boges de Clare's entry from
my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Besides the legitimate siblings you show for Boges de Clare, I find
that he also had an illegitimate brother, Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare, who
seemingly has been ignored in most sources I consulted on the Clare
family. Sometime prior to 1307, his brother Earl Gilbert de Clare's
widow, Joan, granted Guy the manor of Easington (in Chilton),
Buckinghamshire for life, of which propetty he died seised.
References: VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 25. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward
I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 105 (arms of Gaudin de Clare: Argent, three
chevrons gules, in chief two lions rampant sable).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
BOGES (or BOEGHES, BEGES) DE CLARE, clerk, papal chaplain, king's
clerk, born 21 July 1248. He occurs as Canon of York from 5 Nov. 1265,
Canon of Exeter, 1267, parson of St. Peter in the East, Oxford, Papal
chaplain by 1282, Canon of Wells, 1284, King's Clerk by 1285,
Treasurer of York in 1285-1293, Chancellor of Llandaff, 1287-1290,
Canon of Chichester, 28 Sept. 1294, Dean of Stafford. In 1291 he and
his successors were granted a market and a fair at his manor of
Tollerton, Yorkshire. His extensive pluralism is shown in part in a
letter from the Archbishop of York to the Archbishop of Canterbury
dated 16 Feb. 1290/1 which gives a list of his benefices in the diocese
and province of York. He died at London 26 Oct. 1294.

References:

Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): 466, 486, 509- 510, 519, 570. C.P.R.
1292-1301 (1895): 63-65 (Boeghes de Clare styled "my brother"
[mon frere] by Margaret, Countess of Cornwall). Associated
Architectural Societies Reports & Papers 33 (1915-16): 35-73.
Emden, Biog. Reg. of the Univ. of Oxford 1 (1957): 423-424. Clay,
York Minster Fasti 1 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 123) (1957): 26-27;
2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 124) (1959): 54. Schwennicke,
Europäische Stammtafeln 3(1) (1984): 156 (sub Clare). Neve, Fasti
Ecclesiæe Anglicanæ 1066-1300 5 (1996): 14, 38; 9 (2003): 21.


John P. Ravilious wrote:

< 1.1.1a.1 Maud de Lacy
< ----------------------------------------
< Birth: abt 1223
< Death: bef 10 Mar 1288[3]
<
< 2nd wife of Richard de Clare, E of Gloucester and Hertford
<
< Spouse: Richard de Clare
< Birth: 4 Aug 1222[1]
< Death: 15 Jul 1262, Ashenfield in Waltham, Kent[3]
< Father: Gilbert de Clare, E of Gloucester and Hertford (~1180-1230)
< Mother: Isabel le Marshal (1200-1239)
< Marr: bef 26 Jan 1237[1]
<
< Children: Isabel (1240-<1272), m. William de Montferrat
< Gilbert (1243-1295), E of Gloucester and Hertford
< Thomas (~1245-1287), lord of Thomond and Youghal
< Benet (1248-1294), rector, St Peter's in the East
< Margaret (1249-1312), m. Edmund, E of Cornwall
< Roese (1252-), m. Roger de Mowbray
< Eglentine (1257-1257)
<

Douglas Richardson

Re: Clare-ifications

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 07:40:50

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my previous post, I might add that the arms of Guy (or
Gaudin) de Clare are described and depicted at the following weblink:

http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/lordmarshalsLM05.htm

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~

In your good post today, I see you referred to "Benet" de Clare,
"rector, St Peter's in the East," who was a younger son of Sir Richard
de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford, by his wife, Maud de Lacy.

This churchman's name was actually named Boges (or Boeghes, Beges) de
Clare. He was a well known pluralist. Besides the position you name,
he held many other offices/positions, including Canon of York, Canon of
Exeter, Papal chaplain, Canon of Wells, King's Clerk, Treasurer of
York, Chancellor of Llandaff, Canon of Chichester, and Dean of
Stafford. For interest's sake, I've copied Boges de Clare's entry from
my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Besides the legitimate siblings you show for Boges de Clare, I find
that he also had an illegitimate brother, Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare, who
seemingly has been ignored in most sources I consulted on the Clare
family. Sometime prior to 1307, his brother Earl Gilbert de Clare's
widow, Joan, granted Guy the manor of Easington (in Chilton),
Buckinghamshire for life, of which propetty he died seised.
References: VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 25. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward
I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 105 (arms of Gaudin de Clare: Argent, three
chevrons gules, in chief two lions rampant sable).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
BOGES (or BOEGHES, BEGES) DE CLARE, clerk, papal chaplain, king's
clerk, born 21 July 1248. He occurs as Canon of York from 5 Nov. 1265,
Canon of Exeter, 1267, parson of St. Peter in the East, Oxford, Papal
chaplain by 1282, Canon of Wells, 1284, King's Clerk by 1285,
Treasurer of York in 1285-1293, Chancellor of Llandaff, 1287-1290,
Canon of Chichester, 28 Sept. 1294, Dean of Stafford. In 1291 he and
his successors were granted a market and a fair at his manor of
Tollerton, Yorkshire. His extensive pluralism is shown in part in a
letter from the Archbishop of York to the Archbishop of Canterbury
dated 16 Feb. 1290/1 which gives a list of his benefices in the diocese
and province of York. He died at London 26 Oct. 1294.

References:

Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): 466, 486, 509- 510, 519, 570. C.P.R.
1292-1301 (1895): 63-65 (Boeghes de Clare styled "my brother"
[mon frere] by Margaret, Countess of Cornwall). Associated
Architectural Societies Reports & Papers 33 (1915-16): 35-73.
Emden, Biog. Reg. of the Univ. of Oxford 1 (1957): 423-424. Clay,
York Minster Fasti 1 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 123) (1957): 26-27;
2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 124) (1959): 54. Schwennicke,
Europäische Stammtafeln 3(1) (1984): 156 (sub Clare). Neve, Fasti
Ecclesiæe Anglicanæ 1066-1300 5 (1996): 14, 38; 9 (2003): 21.


John P. Ravilious wrote:

1.1.1a.1 Maud de Lacy
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1223
Death: bef 10 Mar 1288[3]

2nd wife of Richard de Clare, E of Gloucester and Hertford

Spouse: Richard de Clare
Birth: 4 Aug 1222[1]
Death: 15 Jul 1262, Ashenfield in Waltham, Kent[3]
Father: Gilbert de Clare, E of Gloucester and Hertford (~1180-1230)
Mother: Isabel le Marshal (1200-1239)
Marr: bef 26 Jan 1237[1]

Children: Isabel (1240-<1272), m. William de Montferrat
Gilbert (1243-1295), E of Gloucester and Hertford
Thomas (~1245-1287), lord of Thomond and Youghal
Benet (1248-1294), rector, St Peter's in the East
Margaret (1249-1312), m. Edmund, E of Cornwall
Roese (1252-), m. Roger de Mowbray
Eglentine (1257-1257)

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 08:38:34

I tried to find a way to email you privately but could not do so. I
would be interested in the cost of the book and how one might be
ordered. Thank you, Bronwen Edwards

Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition & Correction: Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare and Bog

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 17:07:03

Dear Newsgroup ~

I should mention that Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare, the illegitimate son of
Earl Richard de Clare, would be yet another new addition for Complete
Peerage. He is not included among the list of Earl Richard's children
in Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 700, footnote h (sub Gloucester). Also,
as I stated in my earlier post, Earl Richard's younger legitimate son
was named Boges (or Boeghes, Beges) de Clare, not Bevis or Bennet, as
given in the same footnote.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition & Correction: Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare and

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 17 mai 2006 22:21:50

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Also,
as I stated in my earlier post, Earl Richard's younger legitimate son
was named Boges (or Boeghes, Beges) de Clare, not Bevis or Bennet, as
given in the same footnote.

Oddly enough, the editor of CP, Vicary Gibbs, had previously (vol. 3, App.
C, p. 606 and note a) noted that the Latin forms Bozo and Bovo (given in
vol. 5 sub Gloucester by his co-editor Arthur Doubleday) were errors for
this son's proper name Bogo.

Gibbs, however, cites W. H. Stevenson's statement that the English form of
the name was Beues (Boges being the French form).

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition & Correction: Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare and

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 mai 2006 15:23:57

Bogo can not be the individual's "proper name." Rather, Bogo was the
Latin form of this name. For examples of this person being called
"Bogo" or "Bogonis" in contemporary Latin documents, see the following
weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... e+Clare%22
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... e+Clare%22
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Uy_k ... ose&pgis=1

For references to "Bogo" de Knoville styled Bogo and Bogonis in the
same Latin document, see the following weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ogo+Patent
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ogo+Patent

Elsewhere, I've found "Bogo" de Clare called "Boeghes de Clare" in a
letter written in French by his sister, Margaret, Countess of Cornwall
[Reference: Cal. Patent Rolls 1292-1301 (1895): 63-65]. And, if my
memory serves me correctly, in a volume in the Historical Manuscripts
Commission series, there are two records, one signed Boges de Knoville,
the other Beges de Knoville. I believe these were his signatures not
in Latin. "Bogo" de Knoville also appears as both "Boges" and "Beges"
in contemporary rolls of arms. Thus "Boges," "Beges," and "Boeghes"
would be contemporary vernacular forms of this name.

In neither case have I found a single instance of either "Bogo" de
Clare or "Bogo" de Knoville being called "Beues." As such, perhaps
someone would be so kind as to supply instances of men known as Bogo in
Latin who are also called "Beues" in English. The name Beues is
alleged to be an alternative form of the modern name, Bevis. For
example, see the following weblink.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... IR6h5Vi0u4

But is this the same name as Boges, Beges, or Boeghes? So far, the
only Beues I've been able to find is a certain "Beues de Hamtoun." I
haven't confirmed that he was known as Bogo in Latin. According to the
following weblink, however, the author implies that Bogo was the Latin
form of Bevis:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1 ... R6iWS4Pauo

Another Bogo I have found is "Bogo de Barentyn" who was late Sheriff of
Berkshire and Oxfordshire in 1327. I suspect, however, that this
record is a clerical error for Drogo, which is Latin for Dreux. In the
same time period, I find there were individuals named Bogo de Veel and
Bogo Fitz Warin who occur in records.

If Drogo is Latin for Dreux, and Hugo is Latin for Hugh, would Bogo
really be Latin for Bevis?

DR

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition & Correction: Guy (or Gaudin) de Clare and

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 19 mai 2006 19:47:22

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Bogo can not be the individual's "proper name." Rather, Bogo was the
Latin form of this name.

Yes - that was what I meant when I wrote "the Latin forms Bozo and Bovo ...
were errors for this son's proper name Bogo". The proper Latin form of this
man's name was Bogo.

Elsewhere, I've found "Bogo" de Clare called "Boeghes de Clare" in a
letter written in French by his sister, Margaret, Countess of Cornwall
[Reference: Cal. Patent Rolls 1292-1301 (1895): 63-65].

As I said, Vicary Gibbs has Boges (or Bouges) as the French form of Bogo. He
quotes Stevenson giving the other French forms Beughes, Bouges, Bueges and
Boeges.

And, if my
memory serves me correctly, in a volume in the Historical Manuscripts
Commission series, there are two records, one signed Boges de Knoville,
the other Beges de Knoville. I believe these were his signatures not
in Latin. "Bogo" de Knoville also appears as both "Boges" and "Beges"
in contemporary rolls of arms. Thus "Boges," "Beges," and "Boeghes"
would be contemporary vernacular forms of this name.

Surely the crucial question is what language these documents were written
in. If they were in French, this would back up Gibbs's argument, and
wouldn't tell us anything about the medieval English form of the name.

In neither case have I found a single instance of either "Bogo" de
Clare or "Bogo" de Knoville being called "Beues." As such, perhaps
someone would be so kind as to supply instances of men known as Bogo in
Latin who are also called "Beues" in English. The name Beues is
alleged to be an alternative form of the modern name, Bevis.

The question of Bevis is also discussed by Gibbs in the appendix I
mentioned. He quotes W. H. Stevenson, who argues that Bevis comes from Bobo,
not Bogo.

Chris Phillips

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