Curious

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Leo van de Pas

Curious

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 mai 2006 03:51:02

I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John Oxenbrigeand many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol, John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W. Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king of Italy as Berengar II.
Through his mother he is a descendant of Charlemagne. Born about 900, before 936 he married Willa of Tuscany and they had at least three children.

Apparently he proclaimed himself king and was crowned in 950. Is it known on what basis he proclaimed himself king? Was he in possession of a large part of Italy? In 961 the Emperor dethroned him and he went into hiding for at least three years. Then as a prisoner he went to Bamberg in Bavaria where he died 6 August 966.

Two questions, is there any more biographical knowledge about him available? His father was Adalbert 'the Rich' of Ivrea, who died in 923 (?) are his ancestors known and is there any biographical information about him available?

With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Berengar of Ivrea (Curious)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 16 mai 2006 03:57:01

In article <002201c6788a$9e6caca0$0300a8c0@Toshiba>,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

... Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king of
Italy as Berengar II.
Through his mother he is a descendant of Charlemagne. Born about 900, before
936 he married Willa of Tuscany and they had at least three children.

Apparently he proclaimed himself king and was crowned in 950. Is it known on
what basis he proclaimed himself king? Was he in possession of a large part
of Italy? In 961 the Emperor dethroned him and he went into hiding for at
least three years. Then as a prisoner he went to Bamberg in Bavaria where he
died 6 August 966.

Two questions, is there any more biographical knowledge about him available?
His father was Adalbert 'the Rich' of Ivrea, who died in 923 (?) are his
ancestors known and is there any biographical information about him
available?

Some of the best details about Berengar, who was somthing of a skunk,
come from his contemporary (and, for a time, his secretary), Liudprand,
bishop of Cremona. Liudprand's writings are available in English,
translated by F. A Wright in the 1930s, and reprinted in Everyman with
readable introduction by John Julius Norwich.

His Liber de rebus gestis Ottonis has an account of Berenguer's downfall
at Otto's hands; his Antapodosis and Relatione le legatione
Constantinopolitana have scattered tidbits about Berengar, whom, as
Norwich tells us, Liudprand "cordially despised."

One I will always remember is Liudprand's boast of taking to the
Byzantine emperor, as gifts from Berengar, four specially castrated
slave boys, called "'carzimasia': that being the Greek name for young
eunuchs who have had both their testicles and their penis removed. This
operation is performed by [slave] traders at Verdun, who take the boys
into Spain and make a huge profit."

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2006 10:00:08

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John Oxenbrige and many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol, John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W. Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king of Italy as Berengar II.

Also, via Isabelle of Angouleme, ancestral to every English monarch
from Henry III onwards.

MA-R

John P. Ravilious

Re: Curious

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 mai 2006 11:11:21

Dear Leo,

Actually, English monarchs are very important, without whom we
would be running short on Gateway ancestors.......;)

Cheers,

John


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
And I thought English monarchs were only also runs-----isn't it all about
Gateway Ancestors? :-)
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Curious



"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That
ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria
Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America
Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John
Oxenbrige and many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol,
John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim
Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W.
Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a
family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king
of Italy as Berengar II.

Also, via Isabelle of Angouleme, ancestral to every English monarch
from Henry III onwards.

MA-R


Leo van de Pas

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 mai 2006 12:01:01

And I thought English monarchs were only also runs-----isn't it all about
Gateway Ancestors? :-)
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Curious


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That
ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria
Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America
Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John
Oxenbrige and many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol,
John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim
Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W.
Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a
family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king
of Italy as Berengar II.

Also, via Isabelle of Angouleme, ancestral to every English monarch
from Henry III onwards.

MA-R


Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 16 mai 2006 16:24:01

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John Oxenbrige and many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol, John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W. Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king of Italy as Berengar II.

Also, via Isabelle of Angouleme, ancestral to every English monarch
from Henry III onwards.

Given that his daughter married Arnulf II of Flanders and was great
grandmother of Queen Matilda, the English monarchy was already descended
from Berenger prior to the Angouleme marriage.

taf

Gjest

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2006 16:40:50

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
I am interested in an ancestor of one of the wives of Brigham Young. That ancestor is also an ancestor of (at least) two Gateways to Brazil, Maria Pimentel Drummond and Francisco II de Souza and (at least) to N-America Hon. George Percy, Ferdinando Gorges, Col Edward Digges, Rev. John Oxenbrige and many others----as well as Brom Nichol Jr. Peter de Loriol, John P Dulong, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen, Grant Menzies, Tim Powys-Lybbe, Ian Fettes, Don Stone, Kelsey Williams and George W. Bush----the last one impacting very much on the genealogy of many a family around the world.

This ancestor (at last) is Berengar of Ivrea who proclaimed himself king of Italy as Berengar II.

Also, via Isabelle of Angouleme, ancestral to every English monarch
from Henry III onwards.

Given that his daughter married Arnulf II of Flanders and was great
grandmother of Queen Matilda, the English monarchy was already descended
from Berenger prior to the Angouleme marriage.

Indeed; I should have thought of Susanna Regina instead of just the
Burgundy line. That adds William II through to John.

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