Dear Newsgroup ~
I encountered an unusual record this past week, unusual in that one of
the defendants in the lawsuit was being sued by her own grandmother and
her grandmother's two sisters. The parties involved are all well known
individuals. The defendants were Ranulph [Fitz Robert] de Neville and
his wife, Eupheme de Clavering, ancestors of the famous Nevilles of
Raby. The plaintiffs were the three Quincy co-heiresses, Margery de
Ferrers, Countess of Derby, Ellen, widow of Alan la Zouche, and
Elizabeth, wife of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan. All of these
people are included in my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Ellen de Quincy, widow of Sir Alan la Zouche, is allegedly Eupheme de
Clavering's maternal grandmother. I say allegedly because Eupheme's
mother, Margery la Zouche, is thought to have been the daughter of Sir
Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen de Qunicy. My research indicates
that Margery la Zouche's maritagium evidently included lands at
Boxworth, Cambridgeshire, which were formerly held by Sir Alan la
Zouche her father. However, to date, I haven't obtained full
verification of Margery la Zouche's parentage.
I've copied below the abstract of the reference to the lawsuit:
Source: Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith, editors, Calendar of
Documents relating to Scotland, 5 (Supplementary), pg. 142.
"54. [Date: 1283-86?].
Letter to J[ohn] de Kirkeby, archdeacon, from H. de Walcote, his clerk.
He has received the attorneys of Ranulph Fitz Robert de Nevile and
Eufemia, his wife, namely John Cort and Ranulph Schoulard, in the plea
before the justices of the bench between Margery de Ferrars, countess
of Derby, Elena, widow of Alan la Suche, Alexander, earl of Buchan, and
Elizabet', his wife, plaintiffs, and Ranulph and Eufemia, defendants,
over 11-1/2 virgates in Sydeston. Asks for a writ to the justices
concerning this. [SC 1/8/139]." END OF QUOTE.
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 497 (sub Neville) states
that Ranulph de Neville "married, 1stly, Eupheme, daughter of Robert
FitzRoger, Lord FitzRoger," but supplies no date for this marriage.
The above lawsuit fixes the marriage of Ranulph and Eupheme as being
before 1283-86?. So this record would appear to be a new addition for
Complete Peerage. I might add that Ranulph de Neville is perhaps
better known as having been convicted of having incest with his
daughter, Anastase de Neville, wife of Walter de Faucomberge.
The above lawsuit is an example of a woman generally known as Margaret,
in this case Margaret de Quincy, who appears in a contemporary record
as Margery. Yet another instance of Margaret de Quincy being called
Margery may be found in Foster, Final Concords of Lincoln from the Feet
of Fines A.D. 1244-1272 2 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 17) (1920): 142, which
records a fine dated 1256 between Ralph, Abbot of Croyland, and Margery
countess of Ferrars.
The property involved in the above lawsuit, Sydeston, may or may not be
identical with Syderstone (or Sydesterne), Norfolk. The helpful online
National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp) shows that
the manor of Syderstone (or Sydesterne), Norfolk was granted by Alan
Fitz Brian to his sister, Agnes, which conveyance is unfortunately
undated.
E 210/3582: Alan son of Brian to Agnes his sister : Grant of the manor
of Syderstone ( Sydesterne ) : ( Norf. )
I presume Alan Fitz Brian is the individual of that name who resided at
Bedale, Yorkshire and who died in 1267. This manor was afterwards held
by the Kerdeston family, but how they came to possess it, I do not
know. Quite possibly they are descended from Alan Fitz Brian's sister,
Agnes.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and Euphe
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, another possibility regarding the
identity of Sydeston is that it is Syston, Leicestershire, which
property was held by Margaret de Quincy's son, Sir William de Ferrers,
of Groby, Leicestershire. I find that the manor of Groby and the
advowson of Syston, Leicestershire were settled by William de Ferrers
on himself and his wife, Ellen, and their issue in 10 Edward II
(1316-1317), as indicated below:
C 143/123/11: William de Ferariis to settle the manor of Groby and the
advowson of the church of Syston on himself, Ellen his wife, and the
heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Mordac de Meneteith and his
heirs, retaining the manors of Stebbing, Woodham Ferrars, Fairsted
(Essex), and Newbottle and Farndon (N'hamp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As a followup to my original post, another possibility regarding the
identity of Sydeston is that it is Syston, Leicestershire, which
property was held by Margaret de Quincy's son, Sir William de Ferrers,
of Groby, Leicestershire. I find that the manor of Groby and the
advowson of Syston, Leicestershire were settled by William de Ferrers
on himself and his wife, Ellen, and their issue in 10 Edward II
(1316-1317), as indicated below:
C 143/123/11: William de Ferariis to settle the manor of Groby and the
advowson of the church of Syston on himself, Ellen his wife, and the
heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Mordac de Meneteith and his
heirs, retaining the manors of Stebbing, Woodham Ferrars, Fairsted
(Essex), and Newbottle and Farndon (N'hamp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, I've copied below several records
which shed additional light on the lawsuit dated c.1280, between
Ranulph de Neville and his wife, Eupheme de Clavering, and the three
Quincy co-heiresses. As I suspected, the lawsuit concerns Quincy
family property located at Syston, Leicestershire. Farnham shows that
the "town" of Syston, Leicestershire was held in 1251 by Sir Roger de
Quincy, Earl of Winchester, Constable of Scotland. At Earl Roger's
death in 1264, Syston passed by inheritance to his two daughters,
Margaret (or Margery) de Quincy, wife of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl
of Derby, and Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche. Ellen de
Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts, one
part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. The other part of Ellen's share
was evidently settled in marriage c.1265 on Ellen de Quincy's daughter,
Margery la Zouche, and her husband, Robert Fitz Roger. The Fitz Roger
part subsequently passed in marriage to Margery and Robert's daughter,
Eupheme de Clavering, wife of Ranulph de Neville, and thence onto their
descendants, the Nevilles of Raby.
Complete Peerage sub Clavering affirms that Margery, wife of Robert
Fitz Roger, was a Zouche, but provides no documentaion. The reader,
however, may wish to consult William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5
(London, 1825): 559-560, who quotes from the cartulary of Sibton
Abbey:
"Linea Consanguinitatis, de Stirpe Fundatorum Abbaciæ de Sybeton:
"... Idem Rogerus genuit filium nomine Robertum fiilum Rogeri nunc
patronum, qui post obitum Stephani de Cressi successit in hæreditatem
baroniæ de Horsford quasi hæres dominæ Margaretæ de Cheney, quæ
duobus nupsit viris, ut prædictum est. Prædictus vero Robertus duxit
uxorem nominee Margeriam de la Suche, de qua genuit multos filios et
filias, videlicet Johannem, cujus cognomen rex Edwardus filius regis
Henrici fecit vocari Clavering, à principali manerio suo; Alexandrum,
Rogerum, Robertum, Alanum, Henricum, et Edmundum." END OF QUOTE
Elsewhere, I find that VCH Cambridge, 9 (1989): 271-274 states that
Margery la Zouche, wife of Robert Fitz Roger, "probably" had other
lands at Boxworth, Cambridgeshire in marriage, which lands were earlier
held by her father, Sir Alan la Zouche. For particulars on the passage
of the lands at Boxworth, see the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=15433
The documents below make it clear that Ranulph de Neville and his wife,
Euphemia, were married before Michaelmas term, 1280, when Milicent de
Cantelowe, widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, claimed dower against them at
Syston. This record is an addition to Complete Peerage sub Neville
regarding the date of marriage for Ranulph and Euphemia.
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 937 (sub Zouche) states that
Milicent de Cantelowe's husband, Sir Eudes la Zouche (died 1279), of
Harringworth, Northamptonshire, was the brother of Sir Alan la Zouche,
who married Ellen de Quincy, citing Cal. Patent Rolls, 1258-1266, page
238. Dugdale's Baronage, vol. i, pp. 689-690, however, identifies Sir
Eudes as Sir Alan's son. It is difficult to explain how Sir Eudes'
widow, Milicent, was claiming dower at Syston, unless Eudes' parents
were Sir Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen de Quincy, the heiress of
Syston. Reviewing the chronology, I note that Ellen de Quincy is
believed to have married about 1240, to Sir Alan la Zouche, whereas Sir
Eudes la Zouche married before 13 Dec. 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe.
Given these dates, it seems entirely possible that Sir Eudes la Zouche
was a son of Ellen de Quincy. I might note that Sir Eudes la Zouche
and his wife, Milicent la Zouche, named a daughter, Ellen, which would
be readily explained if Eudes' mother was Ellen de Quincy. If further
evidence can be adduced to connect Eudes la Zouche to Ellen de Quincy,
then Eudes' placement in the Zouche family tree as set forth by
Complete Peerage would have to be altered. Quite possibly there were
two men named Eudes la Zouche, one being the brother of Sir Alan la
Zouche, the other being a son of Sir Alan, and that the histories of
the two men have been conflated. If so, the younger Eudes would be the
individual who married Milicent de Cantelowe.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + +
Source: George F. Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Village Notes:
histories of manors and villages, including vital records of persons
and families, unpaginated [FHL Microfilm 804160].
Sub Syston.
Charter Roll, 15 Oct. 1251. Ratification of the gift made by Roger de
Quency, earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland, to Peter son of
Roger de Leicester, of 10 virgates of land in the earl's town of
Sitheston [Syston] with all the villeins holding the said land and all
that goes with them, to be held of the said earl by the service of one
eighth of a knight's fee.
De Banco Roll 14. Easter, 4 Edward I. 1276, m. 6. Leic.: Robert son
of Roger and Margery his wife, v. Roger de la Zuche in a plea that he
warrant him a third part of £11-14-6-1/2d. rent in Schytheston
[Syston], which Margaret de Ferrers, countess of Derby, demands as her
right against them.
De Banco Roll 36. Michaelmas, 9 Edward I. 1280. m. 113d. Leic.:
Milicent who was the wife of Eudo la Zouche v. Ralph de Nevill and
Eufemia his wife in a plea of a third part of 12 messuages, 4 cottages,
11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston] as dower.
De Banco Roll 42. Michaelmas, 9/10 Edward I. 1281. m.48. Leic.,
Northumb.: Ralph de Nevill and Eufemia his wife v. Robert son of Roger
in a plea that he warrant them a third part of 12 messuages, 4
cottages, 11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston].
As a followup to my original post, I've copied below several records
which shed additional light on the lawsuit dated c.1280, between
Ranulph de Neville and his wife, Eupheme de Clavering, and the three
Quincy co-heiresses. As I suspected, the lawsuit concerns Quincy
family property located at Syston, Leicestershire. Farnham shows that
the "town" of Syston, Leicestershire was held in 1251 by Sir Roger de
Quincy, Earl of Winchester, Constable of Scotland. At Earl Roger's
death in 1264, Syston passed by inheritance to his two daughters,
Margaret (or Margery) de Quincy, wife of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl
of Derby, and Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche. Ellen de
Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts, one
part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. The other part of Ellen's share
was evidently settled in marriage c.1265 on Ellen de Quincy's daughter,
Margery la Zouche, and her husband, Robert Fitz Roger. The Fitz Roger
part subsequently passed in marriage to Margery and Robert's daughter,
Eupheme de Clavering, wife of Ranulph de Neville, and thence onto their
descendants, the Nevilles of Raby.
Complete Peerage sub Clavering affirms that Margery, wife of Robert
Fitz Roger, was a Zouche, but provides no documentaion. The reader,
however, may wish to consult William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 5
(London, 1825): 559-560, who quotes from the cartulary of Sibton
Abbey:
"Linea Consanguinitatis, de Stirpe Fundatorum Abbaciæ de Sybeton:
"... Idem Rogerus genuit filium nomine Robertum fiilum Rogeri nunc
patronum, qui post obitum Stephani de Cressi successit in hæreditatem
baroniæ de Horsford quasi hæres dominæ Margaretæ de Cheney, quæ
duobus nupsit viris, ut prædictum est. Prædictus vero Robertus duxit
uxorem nominee Margeriam de la Suche, de qua genuit multos filios et
filias, videlicet Johannem, cujus cognomen rex Edwardus filius regis
Henrici fecit vocari Clavering, à principali manerio suo; Alexandrum,
Rogerum, Robertum, Alanum, Henricum, et Edmundum." END OF QUOTE
Elsewhere, I find that VCH Cambridge, 9 (1989): 271-274 states that
Margery la Zouche, wife of Robert Fitz Roger, "probably" had other
lands at Boxworth, Cambridgeshire in marriage, which lands were earlier
held by her father, Sir Alan la Zouche. For particulars on the passage
of the lands at Boxworth, see the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=15433
The documents below make it clear that Ranulph de Neville and his wife,
Euphemia, were married before Michaelmas term, 1280, when Milicent de
Cantelowe, widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, claimed dower against them at
Syston. This record is an addition to Complete Peerage sub Neville
regarding the date of marriage for Ranulph and Euphemia.
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 937 (sub Zouche) states that
Milicent de Cantelowe's husband, Sir Eudes la Zouche (died 1279), of
Harringworth, Northamptonshire, was the brother of Sir Alan la Zouche,
who married Ellen de Quincy, citing Cal. Patent Rolls, 1258-1266, page
238. Dugdale's Baronage, vol. i, pp. 689-690, however, identifies Sir
Eudes as Sir Alan's son. It is difficult to explain how Sir Eudes'
widow, Milicent, was claiming dower at Syston, unless Eudes' parents
were Sir Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen de Quincy, the heiress of
Syston. Reviewing the chronology, I note that Ellen de Quincy is
believed to have married about 1240, to Sir Alan la Zouche, whereas Sir
Eudes la Zouche married before 13 Dec. 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe.
Given these dates, it seems entirely possible that Sir Eudes la Zouche
was a son of Ellen de Quincy. I might note that Sir Eudes la Zouche
and his wife, Milicent la Zouche, named a daughter, Ellen, which would
be readily explained if Eudes' mother was Ellen de Quincy. If further
evidence can be adduced to connect Eudes la Zouche to Ellen de Quincy,
then Eudes' placement in the Zouche family tree as set forth by
Complete Peerage would have to be altered. Quite possibly there were
two men named Eudes la Zouche, one being the brother of Sir Alan la
Zouche, the other being a son of Sir Alan, and that the histories of
the two men have been conflated. If so, the younger Eudes would be the
individual who married Milicent de Cantelowe.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + +
Source: George F. Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Village Notes:
histories of manors and villages, including vital records of persons
and families, unpaginated [FHL Microfilm 804160].
Sub Syston.
Charter Roll, 15 Oct. 1251. Ratification of the gift made by Roger de
Quency, earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland, to Peter son of
Roger de Leicester, of 10 virgates of land in the earl's town of
Sitheston [Syston] with all the villeins holding the said land and all
that goes with them, to be held of the said earl by the service of one
eighth of a knight's fee.
De Banco Roll 14. Easter, 4 Edward I. 1276, m. 6. Leic.: Robert son
of Roger and Margery his wife, v. Roger de la Zuche in a plea that he
warrant him a third part of £11-14-6-1/2d. rent in Schytheston
[Syston], which Margaret de Ferrers, countess of Derby, demands as her
right against them.
De Banco Roll 36. Michaelmas, 9 Edward I. 1280. m. 113d. Leic.:
Milicent who was the wife of Eudo la Zouche v. Ralph de Nevill and
Eufemia his wife in a plea of a third part of 12 messuages, 4 cottages,
11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston] as dower.
De Banco Roll 42. Michaelmas, 9/10 Edward I. 1281. m.48. Leic.,
Northumb.: Ralph de Nevill and Eufemia his wife v. Robert son of Roger
in a plea that he warrant them a third part of 12 messuages, 4
cottages, 11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston].
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear Newsgroup ~
For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Sir Eudes la Zouche (died 1279), of
Harringworth, Northamptonshire, and his wife, Milicent de Cantelowe.
Sir Eudes la Zouche's correct parentage is presently under discussion
in this thread.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Barbara
Aubrey, Charles Barnes, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne
Baynton, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen,
Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert,
Edward Carleton, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, James
Cudworth, Thomas Culpeper, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane
& Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot,
Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden,
Anne Humphrey, Henry Isham, Edmund & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce,
Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry,
Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Agnes Mackworth,
Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John
Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizaberth Pole,
Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana &
Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, James Taylor,
Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington,
Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt,
Henry Wyche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Sir Eudes la Zouche (died 1279), of
Harringworth, Northamptonshire, and his wife, Milicent de Cantelowe.
Sir Eudes la Zouche's correct parentage is presently under discussion
in this thread.
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Barbara
Aubrey, Charles Barnes, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne
Baynton, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen,
Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert,
Edward Carleton, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, James
Cudworth, Thomas Culpeper, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane
& Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot,
Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden,
Anne Humphrey, Henry Isham, Edmund & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce,
Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry,
Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Agnes Mackworth,
Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John
Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizaberth Pole,
Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana &
Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, James Taylor,
Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington,
Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt,
Henry Wyche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Ginny Wagner
Alberto Azzo II
Wondering if anyone knows where Alberto Azzo II, Markgraf v.
Este died?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Azz ... ave_of_Mil
an
has him dying 1097, at 100 years of age.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... I00020816&
tree=LEO
date of death for Azzo II is 15 Dec, 1128 which would make
him 131 years old when he died. Of interest is the fact
that although he is Azzo II, his son is numbered IV here,
leaving the unanswered question, what happened to Azzo III?
Here, an Italian Azzo, apparently our the same Azzo II,
figures prominently:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1 ... naldi.html
as well, in the footnotes [6] of the account, it is noted
that the castle at Gorron is involved. It was actually a
comital castle and at least one of Abelard's hearings was
held there.
Here we have Azzo's first son claiming land that Henry I's
daughter, Empress Matilda gave to the Church prior to
returning to England and marrying Geoffrey Plantanganet:
http://www.class.uh.edu/gbrown/philosop ... z/Welf-IV/
Welf-IV.html
And a most interesting statement:
"ITALIAN The Duke of Savoy, the medieval Kings of Sicily,
the Orsini of Rome, the Visconti of Milan, the della Scala
of Verona, the Doria of Genoa and the Gonzaga of Mantua are
among the many Italian families who blood has come to
Charles the Prince of Wales. The Royal House of Brunswick,
after which New Brunswick was named and which everyone
thinks of as German, was actually founded in Germany by an
Italian named Azzo II, Marques of Este."
from : http://www.monarchist.ca/archives/ethnic.htm
From the gen-medieval-L archives:
"> I also show two wives for Adalbert Azzo II:
widow of
Jim
Gersende was a daughter of Herbert I, Count of Maine, whose
father, Hugh I, was the first Count of Le Mans, from which
town the county took its name. Herbert I had also a son,
Hugh II, whose only son, Herbert II, died c.1063, s.p.
Gersende's sisters were Biotte, ctss of Mayenne, and Paule,
who married Lancelin I of Beaugency.
She was the second wife of Alberto Azzo II (d. 1097), who
had had one son,Welf IV of Bavaria, by his first wife. (He
later married a third time,childlessly, to a certain
Mathilda, sister of William, Bishop of Pavia.) By Gersende
he was the father of two sons, Fulk (d. 1128), father of
Obizzo I, father of Azzo V ... etc., the house of Este; and
Hugh III, count of Maine, who died in 1097. He married a
daughter of Robert Guiscard of Apulia, andtheir daughter
Paule married her cousin Jean of La Fleche, son of Lancelin
of Beaugency and the other Paule. Their son, Elie, inherited
(or purchased) the county of Maine and married Mathilde of
Chateau-du-Loir. Their only daughter Aremberg married Fulk V
of Anjou, later King of Jerusalem. Their son, in turn, was
Geoffrey the Handsome "Plantagenet", whose son was Henry II
of England.
Jean Coeur de Lapin"
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1996-11/08
48726046
Cennomania means Le Mans. Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham was
called Gauzfrid de Cennomania in one place. Geoffrey of
Mayenne was close to Gersende, Azzo and Hugh in Le Mans
during the uprising.
Could Azzo III have come to St. Albans monastery to live and
been recorded in the psalter's calendar when he died, as so
many nobles did?
Could Azzo III be the "Alexis" of the St. Albans psalter?
There was a hermitage inhabited by a Roger at Markyate, a
word very similar to Markgrave, that drew
Theodora/Christina.
Azzo II married a third time to a daughter of Roger I Bursa,
Duke of Apulia, Guiscard who died 1111, 22 Feb. His wife,
Adele of Flanders, was regent of Apulia from 1111-1115.
Their son, Guillaume II, duke of Apulia 1111-1122, died 20
Jun, 1127; married 1116 according to Leo's website.
Unless anyone has something to the contrary, I believe that
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/stalbanspsalter/e ... slation/tr
ans005.shtml
on March 31, the obit for Azo, heremit
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/stalbanspsalter/e ... entary/pag
e005.shtml
is the son, Azzo III, and possibly the same Azzo who was at
Le Mans where the Commune was begun. If it were Azzo II, he
would have been at least 70 years old and if still alive,
too smart to try to buy the Le Mans residents!
Appreciate any help with this.
Thanks,
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
Este died?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Azz ... ave_of_Mil
an
has him dying 1097, at 100 years of age.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... I00020816&
tree=LEO
date of death for Azzo II is 15 Dec, 1128 which would make
him 131 years old when he died. Of interest is the fact
that although he is Azzo II, his son is numbered IV here,
leaving the unanswered question, what happened to Azzo III?
Here, an Italian Azzo, apparently our the same Azzo II,
figures prominently:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1 ... naldi.html
as well, in the footnotes [6] of the account, it is noted
that the castle at Gorron is involved. It was actually a
comital castle and at least one of Abelard's hearings was
held there.
Here we have Azzo's first son claiming land that Henry I's
daughter, Empress Matilda gave to the Church prior to
returning to England and marrying Geoffrey Plantanganet:
http://www.class.uh.edu/gbrown/philosop ... z/Welf-IV/
Welf-IV.html
And a most interesting statement:
"ITALIAN The Duke of Savoy, the medieval Kings of Sicily,
the Orsini of Rome, the Visconti of Milan, the della Scala
of Verona, the Doria of Genoa and the Gonzaga of Mantua are
among the many Italian families who blood has come to
Charles the Prince of Wales. The Royal House of Brunswick,
after which New Brunswick was named and which everyone
thinks of as German, was actually founded in Germany by an
Italian named Azzo II, Marques of Este."
from : http://www.monarchist.ca/archives/ethnic.htm
From the gen-medieval-L archives:
"> I also show two wives for Adalbert Azzo II:
1.) Cunigunde, dau. of Welf II, Count of Altdorf
2.) Gersende, dau. of Herbert I, Count of Maine
(I show no children born of this union) I show Gersende as
the
widow of
Theobald III, Count of Blois.
Is Gersende the ancestres of the house of ESTE ? Or have I
found yet
another error in my database ?
Today is the first day of the rest of your life !
(jstevens@iquest.net)
Jim
Gersende was a daughter of Herbert I, Count of Maine, whose
father, Hugh I, was the first Count of Le Mans, from which
town the county took its name. Herbert I had also a son,
Hugh II, whose only son, Herbert II, died c.1063, s.p.
Gersende's sisters were Biotte, ctss of Mayenne, and Paule,
who married Lancelin I of Beaugency.
She was the second wife of Alberto Azzo II (d. 1097), who
had had one son,Welf IV of Bavaria, by his first wife. (He
later married a third time,childlessly, to a certain
Mathilda, sister of William, Bishop of Pavia.) By Gersende
he was the father of two sons, Fulk (d. 1128), father of
Obizzo I, father of Azzo V ... etc., the house of Este; and
Hugh III, count of Maine, who died in 1097. He married a
daughter of Robert Guiscard of Apulia, andtheir daughter
Paule married her cousin Jean of La Fleche, son of Lancelin
of Beaugency and the other Paule. Their son, Elie, inherited
(or purchased) the county of Maine and married Mathilde of
Chateau-du-Loir. Their only daughter Aremberg married Fulk V
of Anjou, later King of Jerusalem. Their son, in turn, was
Geoffrey the Handsome "Plantagenet", whose son was Henry II
of England.
Jean Coeur de Lapin"
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1996-11/08
48726046
Cennomania means Le Mans. Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham was
called Gauzfrid de Cennomania in one place. Geoffrey of
Mayenne was close to Gersende, Azzo and Hugh in Le Mans
during the uprising.
Could Azzo III have come to St. Albans monastery to live and
been recorded in the psalter's calendar when he died, as so
many nobles did?
Could Azzo III be the "Alexis" of the St. Albans psalter?
There was a hermitage inhabited by a Roger at Markyate, a
word very similar to Markgrave, that drew
Theodora/Christina.
Azzo II married a third time to a daughter of Roger I Bursa,
Duke of Apulia, Guiscard who died 1111, 22 Feb. His wife,
Adele of Flanders, was regent of Apulia from 1111-1115.
Their son, Guillaume II, duke of Apulia 1111-1122, died 20
Jun, 1127; married 1116 according to Leo's website.
Unless anyone has something to the contrary, I believe that
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/stalbanspsalter/e ... slation/tr
ans005.shtml
on March 31, the obit for Azo, heremit
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/stalbanspsalter/e ... entary/pag
e005.shtml
is the son, Azzo III, and possibly the same Azzo who was at
Le Mans where the Commune was begun. If it were Azzo II, he
would have been at least 70 years old and if still alive,
too smart to try to buy the Le Mans residents!
Appreciate any help with this.
Thanks,
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com