HP: Angevin loose ends

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Stewart Baldwin

HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 13 mai 2006 00:46:04

Having uploaded pages on the earlier Angevin counts to the "Henry
Project" webpage yesterday, I thought I would summarize some loose
ends, and indicate some places where there has been significant
disagreement in the literature. See the pages themselves for details.

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/provis.htm

First, items of past disgreement for which I think the evidence
heavily favors a specific solution.

1. The paternal ancestry of the Plantagenets.
I accept the theory of Estournet (1928), later convincingly
followed by Settipani (1997, 2000) and Saint-Phalle (2000), that count
Geoffroy of Gâtinais (father of Foulques IV) was the son of Beatrix de
Mâcon by a certain Hugues du Perche (discussed in detail on the page
for Geoffroy of Gâtinais). For the moment, I have sidestepped the
more difficult question of the parentage of Hugues du Perche (which is
intertwined with the problematic origin of the counts of Perche and
viscounts of Châteaudun).

2. The legendary nature of Tertullus and Tortulfus/Torquatius.
I see no reason to regard these individuals as historical. Even
for Ingelger, the contemporary sources give us nothing beyond his
name.

3. The parentage of Adèle, wife of Geoffroy Grisegonelle.
Her father was almost certainly count Robert I of Troyes. The
rival theory which would make her a sister of Robert and a daughter of
Heribert II of Vermandois is nowhere attested and chronologically less
likely.

4. Ermengarde and Gerberge, daughters of Geoffroy Grisegonelle.
I see no good reason to combine these two daughters into a single
individual Ermengarde/Gerberge.

Next, one item for which I have not yet read an important article:

5. Adélaïde d'Anjou (the often married)
I have outlined the evidence from other sources, but I still have
not read Thierry Stasser's article that appeared in "Le Moyen Age".
(That journal is easy enough to find, but it is not available to me
here in Auburn, and I keep forgetting to make a copy of that article
when I am at a library that has it.)

Finally, thing which I think are clearly still "loose ends".

6. The supposed second marriage of Geoffroy Grisegonelle to Adélaïde,
widow of Lambert of Chalon.
This is not directly attested, and chronologically difficult. I
find myself sitting on the fence with this one.

7. The mother of Geoffroy's son Maurice.
This is heavily tied with the previous matter.

8. The wife of Joscelin de Courtenay.
His wife is said to have been a daughter of a certain count
Geoffroy Férreol, but the common identification of this Geoffroy
Férreol with Geoffroy of Gâtinais is not well attested.

9. Adèle, wife of Gautier de Vexin.
With proof still lacking, the conjecture making her a daughter of
Foulques II seems best.

10. Descents of the earlier Angevin wives.
A lot of conjecture, even more uncertainty, it seems to me.

Stewart Baldwin

Ian Cairns

Re: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Ian Cairns » 13 mai 2006 02:06:29

A pedant writes:

On http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... off005.htm
you give Henry II as dying in 1183.
Whereas on http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... nry002.htm
you correctly give his year of death as 1189.

Rgrds
Ian


"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:0c1a625qlaq4nffsmmpblosj5c0r1iqtsr@4ax.com...
Having uploaded pages on the earlier Angevin counts to the "Henry
Project" webpage yesterday, I thought I would summarize some loose
ends, and indicate some places where there has been significant
disagreement in the literature. See the pages themselves for details.

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/provis.htm

First, items of past disgreement for which I think the evidence
heavily favors a specific solution.

1. The paternal ancestry of the Plantagenets.
I accept the theory of Estournet (1928), later convincingly
followed by Settipani (1997, 2000) and Saint-Phalle (2000), that count
Geoffroy of Gâtinais (father of Foulques IV) was the son of Beatrix de
Mâcon by a certain Hugues du Perche (discussed in detail on the page
for Geoffroy of Gâtinais). For the moment, I have sidestepped the
more difficult question of the parentage of Hugues du Perche (which is
intertwined with the problematic origin of the counts of Perche and
viscounts of Châteaudun).

2. The legendary nature of Tertullus and Tortulfus/Torquatius.
I see no reason to regard these individuals as historical. Even
for Ingelger, the contemporary sources give us nothing beyond his
name.

3. The parentage of Adèle, wife of Geoffroy Grisegonelle.
Her father was almost certainly count Robert I of Troyes. The
rival theory which would make her a sister of Robert and a daughter of
Heribert II of Vermandois is nowhere attested and chronologically less
likely.

4. Ermengarde and Gerberge, daughters of Geoffroy Grisegonelle.
I see no good reason to combine these two daughters into a single
individual Ermengarde/Gerberge.

Next, one item for which I have not yet read an important article:

5. Adélaïde d'Anjou (the often married)
I have outlined the evidence from other sources, but I still have
not read Thierry Stasser's article that appeared in "Le Moyen Age".
(That journal is easy enough to find, but it is not available to me
here in Auburn, and I keep forgetting to make a copy of that article
when I am at a library that has it.)

Finally, thing which I think are clearly still "loose ends".

6. The supposed second marriage of Geoffroy Grisegonelle to Adélaïde,
widow of Lambert of Chalon.
This is not directly attested, and chronologically difficult. I
find myself sitting on the fence with this one.

7. The mother of Geoffroy's son Maurice.
This is heavily tied with the previous matter.

8. The wife of Joscelin de Courtenay.
His wife is said to have been a daughter of a certain count
Geoffroy Férreol, but the common identification of this Geoffroy
Férreol with Geoffroy of Gâtinais is not well attested.

9. Adèle, wife of Gautier de Vexin.
With proof still lacking, the conjecture making her a daughter of
Foulques II seems best.

10. Descents of the earlier Angevin wives.
A lot of conjecture, even more uncertainty, it seems to me.

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 20 mai 2006 05:08:34

On Sat, 20 May 2006 03:08:46 +0000 (UTC), leblancr@mts.net (Roger
LeBlanc) wrote:

I was very pleased to see the new pages for the Henry Project and lost
no time checking them out, but am only now getting a chance to post a
question. With regard to the following point-

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
message snipped

9. Adèle, wife of Gautier de Vexin.
With proof still lacking, the conjecture making her a daughter of
Foulques II seems best.



On the pages for Foulques I and II, it is mentioned that the chronology
seems more favorable for placing her as a daughter of Foulques II,
though I had previously noted the opposite to be the case. It would be
beneficial to see more elaboration for the possible chronology concerns
involved.

Gautier I of Vexin first appears in the records in 975, and lived at
least until 992. Geoffroy I of Anjou appears in the records between
960 and his death in 987. Each have sons appearing in charters for
the first time in the 970's. Thus, putting Gautier and Geoffroy in
the same generation looks like the best fit to me. Of course, this is
not conclusive, given the inevitable uncertainties in estimating
birthdates. I would be interested in seeing any chronological
arguments that favor Gautier marrying an aunt rather than a sister of
Geoffroy.

Stewart Baldwin

Roger LeBlanc

Re: HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 20 mai 2006 05:10:02

I was very pleased to see the new pages for the Henry Project and lost
no time checking them out, but am only now getting a chance to post a
question. With regard to the following point-

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
<message snipped>

9. Adèle, wife of Gautier de Vexin.
With proof still lacking, the conjecture making her a daughter of
Foulques II seems best.



On the pages for Foulques I and II, it is mentioned that the chronology

seems more favorable for placing her as a daughter of Foulques II,
though I had previously noted the opposite to be the case. It would be
beneficial to see more elaboration for the possible chronology concerns
involved.

Roger LeBlanc

Roger LeBlanc

Re: HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 20 mai 2006 20:32:03

I've been looking at the chronology as I have it for the Gautier I de
Valois line. It follows as I discover from a posting to the Gen-Med list
in 2002 with the subject line "de Warenne", where the following outline
was included-

1. Raoul/Ralph de Gouy d 926 Count of Ostrevant/Amiens/Valois/Vexin
2. Gautier I b circa 925 Count of Valois/Vexin m Adele d'Anjou
3. Gautier II b circa 944 d circa 1027 m Adele de Senlis

-to which I will add the following generation from my notes-

4. Raoul II de Vexin b circa 985

Since there were apparently no follow-ups to this I have perhaps wrongly
assumed it was the current state of the reconstruction. The proposed
birth of Gautier II as circa 944 does appear to be too early, but if
accurate, casts doubt that his mother was a daughter of Foulques II,
whose own children were born circa the 940's. The birth of Gautier I
circa 925 seems to hinge on the father's death in 926.

Recognizing the futility of estimating birthdates, I still believe it
can be very useful to try, bearing in mind that additional information
must be consistent with the parameters established.

Comments on the dates and connections in the above lineage (including a
total blow-up) are welcome.

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
<message snipped>

Gautier I of Vexin first appears in the records in 975, and lived at
least until 992. Geoffroy I of Anjou appears in the records between
960 and his death in 987. Each have sons appearing in charters for
the first time in the 970's. Thus, putting Gautier and Geoffroy in
the same generation looks like the best fit to me. Of course, this is
not conclusive, given the inevitable uncertainties in estimating
birthdates. I would be interested in seeing any chronological
arguments that favor Gautier marrying an aunt rather than a sister of
Geoffroy.

Stewart Baldwin



Stewart Baldwin

Re: HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 22 mai 2006 04:23:43

On Sat, 20 May 2006 18:31:03 +0000 (UTC), leblancr@mts.net (Roger
LeBlanc) wrote:

I've been looking at the chronology as I have it for the Gautier I de
Valois line. It follows as I discover from a posting to the Gen-Med list
in 2002 with the subject line "de Warenne", where the following outline
was included-

1. Raoul/Ralph de Gouy d 926 Count of Ostrevant/Amiens/Valois/Vexin
2. Gautier I b circa 925 Count of Valois/Vexin m Adele d'Anjou
3. Gautier II b circa 944 d circa 1027 m Adele de Senlis

-to which I will add the following generation from my notes-

4. Raoul II de Vexin b circa 985

Since there were apparently no follow-ups to this I have perhaps wrongly
assumed it was the current state of the reconstruction. The proposed
birth of Gautier II as circa 944 does appear to be too early, but if
accurate, casts doubt that his mother was a daughter of Foulques II,
whose own children were born circa the 940's. The birth of Gautier I
circa 925 seems to hinge on the father's death in 926.

Recognizing the futility of estimating birthdates, I still believe it
can be very useful to try, bearing in mind that additional information
must be consistent with the parameters established.

Comments on the dates and connections in the above lineage (including a
total blow-up) are welcome.

The problem with estimating dates is that you don't want to assume too
much from them. In this case, your estimate for the birthdates of the
children of Fulk II loos too late, and the estimate for the birth of
Gautier I looks too early.

Fulk II appears for the first time in 929, when his father Fulk I has
already been appearing in the records as an apparent adult for more
than 40 years. Fulk I died after having appeared in the records for
at least 55 years, from which we c an conclude that he was quite old
at the time of his death. Thus, when Fulk II appeared with his father
in 929, he was almost certainly an adult, so it excessive to assume
that his children were not born until ca. 940.

Adding to this the fact that the estimated birthdate of Gautier II is
too early (why a 19 year generation followed by a 39 year generation
when two generations of about 29 years each is more likely?), the
possibility that Gautier II was a grandson of Fulk II is perfectly
reasonable.

On the other hand, if we estimate a birthdate of about 870 for Fulk
(making him about 16 when he first appears in the records, so this
date might be too late, but is unlikely to be too early), we see that
Fulk I was about 55 years old at the time estimated above for Gautier
I. Thus, any daughter of Fulk I is likely to have been significantly
older than Gautier I.



Stewart Baldwin

Roger LeBlanc

Re: HP: Angevin loose ends

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 22 mai 2006 23:42:01

Thanks for the response Stewart. There is much food for thought in your
reply. I appreciate that the question is incidental to the main purpose
of your Project but is an interesting avenue of discussion. I have a few
observations which are added below.

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

The problem with estimating dates is that you don't want to assume too
much from them. In this case, your estimate for the birthdates of the
children of Fulk II loos too late, and the estimate for the birth of
Gautier I looks too early.



For the birth of Gautier I, that depends I suppose on his identification

as son of Raoul of Gouy who dies 926. Gautier's death after 992 may
argue against an earlier year of birth (which would be desirable for the
subsequent chronology).

Fulk II appears for the first time in 929, when his father Fulk I has
already been appearing in the records as an apparent adult for more
than 40 years. Fulk I died after having appeared in the records for
at least 55 years, from which we c an conclude that he was quite old
at the time of his death. Thus, when Fulk II appeared with his father
in 929, he was almost certainly an adult, so it excessive to assume
that his children were not born until ca. 940.



On this point, the daughter Adelaide (once referred to in this group as

the career bride) who if she was the mother of Constance of Arles born
circa 986, would indicate her birth (Adelaide's) circa 945, but not much
later due to the Gevaudan marriage and children.

Adding to this the fact that the estimated birthdate of Gautier II is
too early (why a 19 year generation followed by a 39 year generation
when two generations of about 29 years each is more likely?), the
possibility that Gautier II was a grandson of Fulk II is perfectly
reasonable.


I would agree with you that an interval of 30 years is the most likely

standard, but I understand due to chronological concerns with subsequent
generations, the birthdate for Gautier II has been approximated as not
later than circa 944.

On the other hand, if we estimate a birthdate of about 870 for Fulk
(making him about 16 when he first appears in the records, so this
date might be too late, but is unlikely to be too early), we see that
Fulk I was about 55 years old at the time estimated above for Gautier
I. Thus, any daughter of Fulk I is likely to have been significantly
older than Gautier I.



This is an interesting point, but I do not think there is anything to

prohibit Fulk fathering children as late as the 920's. Again much of the
speculation depends on the chronology of the Counts of Valois.

Roger LeBlanc

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