C.P. Addition: Contracted wife of Nicholas de Meinell, 2nd L

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Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition: Contracted wife of Nicholas de Meinell, 2nd L

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 11 mai 2006 16:19:29

Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 627-630 (sub Meinill)
gives a lengthy account of the life history of Nicholas de Meinill, 2nd
Lord Meinell, who died in 1322. No mention is made of any wife, only
that Lord Meinell had an illegitimate son, also named Nicholas, by Lucy
de Thweng.

A contemporary document dated 1292-6? indicates, however, that
Nicholas, 2nd Lord Meinell, was contracted to marry a daughter of the
Countess of Strathearn in Scotland, which contract evidently was
broken. This information comes from a letter written by Lord Meinell's
father, Nicholas de Meinell, Sr., to King Edward I, an abstract of
which is published in Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Vol.
5, edited by Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith, page 154.

The pertinent part of this letter reads as follows:

"168. [1292-6?]. Letter from Nicholas de Menill to Sir Hugh de
Cressingham. He [Nicholas] has sent the following letter to the king,
the earl of Lincoln and other friends, and asks Hugh to take council
concerning it. [Cites the letter to the king in full] - The countess
of Strathearn is bound to him in 200 marks for the marriage of his son
and her daughter, by writing and pledges of Earl Patrick and Sir
Alexander de Baillof [Balliol] of Cavers and others. [She] swore on
the gospels, at the insistence of the bishop of Saint Andrews, on pain
of excommunication, to pay the writer at Candlemas, with costs and
damages in case of default. She has broken this covenant, wherefore he
begs the king's letters to the countess and to Earl Patrick and Sir
Alexander, since it would be a great inconvenience for him to plead in
Scotland. If she does not wish [to keep the covenant], he requests a
letter to the sheriff of Northumberland to distrain the Scottish goods
coming [from] Berwick, and a letter to the king of Scotland ... in this
matter. French. [SC 1/48/80]." END OF QUOTE

The Countess of Strathearn referenced in the above letter was evidently
Mary, daughter of Ewen of Argyll, and widow successively of Magnus,
King of Man (died 1265), Malise, 5th Earl of Strathearn (died 1271),
and Sir Hugh Abernethy of the ilk (died 1291-1292) [Reference: Complete
Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 382-383 (sub Strathearn)]. Given the
assigned date of the above letter, it appears that the Countess'
daughter who was contracted to marry the son of Nicholas de Meinill,
Sr., was the child of the countess' third marriage to Sir Hugh
Abernethy. Mary, Countess of Strathearn, subsequently married (4thly)
William Fitz Warin. She died in 1300/1303, and was buried in the
church of the Grey Friars, London.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Contracted wife of Nicholas de Meinell, 2

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2006 21:46:01

Douglas Richardson schrieb:

A contemporary document dated 1292-6? indicates, however, that
Nicholas, 2nd Lord Meinell, was contracted to marry a daughter of the
Countess of Strathearn in Scotland, which contract evidently was
broken. This information comes from a letter written by Lord Meinell's
father, Nicholas de Meinell, Sr., to King Edward I, an abstract of
which is published in Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Vol.
5, edited by Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith, page 154.

The pertinent part of this letter reads as follows:

"168. [1292-6?]. Letter from Nicholas de Menill to Sir Hugh de
Cressingham. He [Nicholas] has sent the following letter to the king,
the earl of Lincoln and other friends, and asks Hugh to take council
concerning it. [Cites the letter to the king in full] - The countess
of Strathearn is bound to him in 200 marks for the marriage of his son
and her daughter,

Dear Douglas,

A good find - at the risk of seeming to play Devil's advocate, how do
we know that the son of the first Lord Meinell mentioned in the letter
is his son Nicholas, given that the letter neither names him nor refers
to him as the heir?

Regards, Michael

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Contracted wife of Nicholas de Meinell, 2

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 mai 2006 16:23:21

Dear Michael ~

A thinking man's genealogist you are! I'm so impressed.

Yes, you are correct. The letter I posted does not state that Lord
Meinell's son was his eldest son, Nicholas, born 1274. Lord Meinell
did in fact have a younger son, John, born about 1282. I should have
caught that. Mea culpa!

Given that marriages were often arranged when children were approaching
age 13-14, it is tempting to think it was John whose marriage was being
arranged, not Nicholas. Also, Mary, Countess of Strathearn, is stated
by Complete Peerage sub Strathearn to have had several sons by her 3rd
husband, Sir Hugh de Abernethy, in 1281, but no mention is made of any
daughter. If so, it seems possible she had a daughter by Abernethy
either in 1281 or shortly thereafter and that it was this child whose
marriage was being arranged in 1292-6. That would make the most sense
to me.

If so, it seems more likely to me that the Abernethy girl was being
married to John de Meinell, not his older brother, Nicholas, as John
would have been closer in age to the Abernethy girl.

All the same, be it a marriage for John or for Nicholas, this is an
addition for Complete Peerage under both Meinell and Strathearn.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net


mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
< Douglas Richardson schrieb:
<
< > A contemporary document dated 1292-6? indicates, however, that
< > Nicholas, 2nd Lord Meinell, was contracted to marry a daughter of
the
< > Countess of Strathearn in Scotland, which contract evidently was
< > broken. This information comes from a letter written by Lord
Meinell's
< > father, Nicholas de Meinell, Sr., to King Edward I, an abstract of
< > which is published in Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,
Vol.
< > 5, edited by Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith, page 154.
< >
< > The pertinent part of this letter reads as follows:
< >
< > "168. [1292-6?]. Letter from Nicholas de Menill to Sir Hugh de
< > Cressingham. He [Nicholas] has sent the following letter to the
king,
< > the earl of Lincoln and other friends, and asks Hugh to take
council
< > concerning it. [Cites the letter to the king in full] - The
countess
< > of Strathearn is bound to him in 200 marks for the marriage of his
son
< > and her daughter,
<
< Dear Douglas,
<
< A good find - at the risk of seeming to play Devil's advocate, how do
< we know that the son of the first Lord Meinell mentioned in the
letter
< is his son Nicholas, given that the letter neither names him nor
refers
< to him as the heir?
<
< Regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Contracted wife of Nicholas de Meinell, 2

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mai 2006 16:45:16

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Michael ~

Yes, you are correct. The letter I posted does not state that Lord
Meinell's son was his eldest son, Nicholas, born 1274. Lord Meinell
did in fact have a younger son, John, born about 1282. I should have
caught that. Mea culpa!

Given that marriages were often arranged when children were approaching
age 13-14, it is tempting to think it was John whose marriage was being
arranged, not Nicholas. Also, Mary, Countess of Strathearn, is stated
by Complete Peerage sub Strathearn to have had several sons by her 3rd
husband, Sir Hugh de Abernethy, in 1281, but no mention is made of any
daughter. If so, it seems possible she had a daughter by Abernethy
either in 1281 or shortly thereafter and that it was this child whose
marriage was being arranged in 1292-6. That would make the most sense
to me.

If so, it seems more likely to me that the Abernethy girl was being
married to John de Meinell, not his older brother, Nicholas, as John
would have been closer in age to the Abernethy girl.

All the same, be it a marriage for John or for Nicholas, this is an
addition for Complete Peerage under both Meinell and Strathearn.


Dear Douglas

I agree completely. And it is still an impressive find.

Regards, Michael

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