C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of Willi
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of Willi
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the maternal grandmother of Queen
Elizabeth I, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the maternal grandmother of Queen
Elizabeth I, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Douglas
Granted that your proposition is likely, and that William Boleyn would
appear to be older than his wife, given the example of the young age of
Henry VII's mother at the time of his birth, and the possibility of
child-marriages, what is there to rule out a birthdate of 1464 for Lady
Margaret Boleyn? Assuming an approximate birthdate of 1451 for her
husband [which seems entirely reasonable to me], are there not other
known contemporaneous instances of teenage husbands and child-brides
(eg the 29 year old Richard II and his seven year old second wife in
1396)?
Regards, Michael
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the maternal grandmother of Queen
Elizabeth I, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
Dear Douglas
Granted that your proposition is likely, and that William Boleyn would
appear to be older than his wife, given the example of the young age of
Henry VII's mother at the time of his birth, and the possibility of
child-marriages, what is there to rule out a birthdate of 1464 for Lady
Margaret Boleyn? Assuming an approximate birthdate of 1451 for her
husband [which seems entirely reasonable to me], are there not other
known contemporaneous instances of teenage husbands and child-brides
(eg the 29 year old Richard II and his seven year old second wife in
1396)?
Regards, Michael
-
Vickie Elam White
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas,
Well, what is the wording in her mother's 1485 inquisition post mortem which
indicates Margaret's age?
Vickie Elam White
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1147234584.876929.272440@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the maternal grandmother of Queen
Elizabeth I, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
Well, what is the wording in her mother's 1485 inquisition post mortem which
indicates Margaret's age?
Vickie Elam White
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1147234584.876929.272440@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the maternal grandmother of Queen
Elizabeth I, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, this morning I located some
additional information regarding the birthdate of Sir William Boleyn,
the maternal grandfarther of Queen Elizabeth I, in the book, The Life
of Anne Boleyn (1924), by Philip W. Sergeant, pg. 2. This information
shows that Sir William Boleyn was born about 1451, as I estimated in my
previous post.
pg. 2: "Sir Geoffrey [Boleyn] and his wife had a son William, who was
born about 1451. In the "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem" of the
reign of Henry VII. are two entries concerning a certain Thomas Hoo,
owner of the manor of Offeley, Hertfordshire, who died on October 8th,
1486. The manor, it appears, had been remaindered to Anne, wife of
Geoffrey Boleyn, and she, being dead, it thus came to her son. In the
second entry, a writ dated October 17th, 1487, it is stated that "Wm.
Boleyn, knt., aged 36 and more, is his [Thomas Hoo's] cousin and heir,
viz., son of Anne, daughter of Lord de Hoo and Hastynges, his brother."
END OF QUOTE.
On page 3, the author, Mr. Sergeant, acknowledges that Sir William
Boleyn's wife, Margaret Butler, was stated to be aged 20 in 1485, which
he finds "impossible."
For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir William Boleyn and his wife, Margaret
Butler:
1. Elizabeth Alsop.
2. Anne Humphrey.
3. Thomas Lunsford.
4. Herbert Pelham.
5. John West
For the links between the individual immigrants and the Boleyn family,
see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenert Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As a followup to my original post, this morning I located some
additional information regarding the birthdate of Sir William Boleyn,
the maternal grandfarther of Queen Elizabeth I, in the book, The Life
of Anne Boleyn (1924), by Philip W. Sergeant, pg. 2. This information
shows that Sir William Boleyn was born about 1451, as I estimated in my
previous post.
pg. 2: "Sir Geoffrey [Boleyn] and his wife had a son William, who was
born about 1451. In the "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem" of the
reign of Henry VII. are two entries concerning a certain Thomas Hoo,
owner of the manor of Offeley, Hertfordshire, who died on October 8th,
1486. The manor, it appears, had been remaindered to Anne, wife of
Geoffrey Boleyn, and she, being dead, it thus came to her son. In the
second entry, a writ dated October 17th, 1487, it is stated that "Wm.
Boleyn, knt., aged 36 and more, is his [Thomas Hoo's] cousin and heir,
viz., son of Anne, daughter of Lord de Hoo and Hastynges, his brother."
END OF QUOTE.
On page 3, the author, Mr. Sergeant, acknowledges that Sir William
Boleyn's wife, Margaret Butler, was stated to be aged 20 in 1485, which
he finds "impossible."
For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir William Boleyn and his wife, Margaret
Butler:
1. Elizabeth Alsop.
2. Anne Humphrey.
3. Thomas Lunsford.
4. Herbert Pelham.
5. John West
For the links between the individual immigrants and the Boleyn family,
see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenert Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson wrote:
I don't doubt c1451 as Sir William's birthdate.
Dear Douglas
I am not familiar with Mr Sergeant's work, so I am unable to assess
this appeal to his authority. It would be interesting to know,
however, why we should assent to his assertion that a birthdate of 1464
or 1465 [ie aged 20 in 1485] for Lady Margaret Boleyn is "impossible".
Is it because she had a child "born in 1477"? If so, should we not not
find it impossible that Margaret Beaufort was a mother in 1456 at the
age of 13? Is it because she would therefore have been married at the
age of four? If so, what are we to make of other child-marriages from
the period in question?
Is it likely? Certainly not. Is it impossible? By no means.
I look forward to your further thoughts.
Regards, Michael
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, this morning I located some
additional information regarding the birthdate of Sir William Boleyn,
the maternal grandfarther of Queen Elizabeth I, in the book, The Life
of Anne Boleyn (1924), by Philip W. Sergeant, pg. 2. This information
shows that Sir William Boleyn was born about 1451, as I estimated in my
previous post.
I don't doubt c1451 as Sir William's birthdate.
On page 3, the author, Mr. Sergeant, acknowledges that Sir William
Boleyn's wife, Margaret Butler, was stated to be aged 20 in 1485, which
he finds "impossible."
Dear Douglas
I am not familiar with Mr Sergeant's work, so I am unable to assess
this appeal to his authority. It would be interesting to know,
however, why we should assent to his assertion that a birthdate of 1464
or 1465 [ie aged 20 in 1485] for Lady Margaret Boleyn is "impossible".
Is it because she had a child "born in 1477"? If so, should we not not
find it impossible that Margaret Beaufort was a mother in 1456 at the
age of 13? Is it because she would therefore have been married at the
age of four? If so, what are we to make of other child-marriages from
the period in question?
Is it likely? Certainly not. Is it impossible? By no means.
I look forward to your further thoughts.
Regards, Michael
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
In the second document dated 1469 which I posted yesterday, it is
stated that the agreement regarding the manor of Virworthy, Devon was
made with "the assent of William and Margaret Boleyn." I find it
impossible that a four year old wife would be able to give legal assent
to such an agreement. More than likely, Margaret Butler was aged 12-14
at the time of this document, which would place her birth at
approximately 1455-1457. At the very least, Margaret Butler would
surely have been at least 13 years of age in 1473, in which year her
husband, William Boleyn, turned 22, by which date William was required
to have settled lands on Margaret. This would mean Margaret was born
no later than 1460, and thus would be aged 17 at her first son, Thomas'
birth in 1477. This time frame makes sense to me. Likewise, by church
law, Margaret had to be at least aged 7 for her to contract a valid
marriage. This would place her birth as no later than 1462, or make
her at least aged 15 at her son, Thomas' birth in 1477.
All of these factors make it plain that Margaret Butler, wife of Sir
William Boleyn, was born sometime before 1465. I vote for a birthdate
for Margaret Butler of around 1460. I might add that Mr. Sergeant had
no knowledge of the 1469 documents I posted.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
< Dear Douglas
<
< I am not familiar with Mr Sergeant's work, so I am unable to assess
< this appeal to his authority. It would be interesting to know,
< however, why we should assent to his assertion that a birthdate of
1464
< or 1465 [ie aged 20 in 1485] for Lady Margaret Boleyn is
"impossible".
< Is it because she had a child "born in 1477"? If so, should we not
not
< find it impossible that Margaret Beaufort was a mother in 1456 at the
< age of 13? Is it because she would therefore have been married at
the
< age of four? If so, what are we to make of other child-marriages from
< the period in question?
<
< Is it likely? Certainly not. Is it impossible? By no means.
<
< I look forward to your further thoughts.
<
< Regards, Michael
In the second document dated 1469 which I posted yesterday, it is
stated that the agreement regarding the manor of Virworthy, Devon was
made with "the assent of William and Margaret Boleyn." I find it
impossible that a four year old wife would be able to give legal assent
to such an agreement. More than likely, Margaret Butler was aged 12-14
at the time of this document, which would place her birth at
approximately 1455-1457. At the very least, Margaret Butler would
surely have been at least 13 years of age in 1473, in which year her
husband, William Boleyn, turned 22, by which date William was required
to have settled lands on Margaret. This would mean Margaret was born
no later than 1460, and thus would be aged 17 at her first son, Thomas'
birth in 1477. This time frame makes sense to me. Likewise, by church
law, Margaret had to be at least aged 7 for her to contract a valid
marriage. This would place her birth as no later than 1462, or make
her at least aged 15 at her son, Thomas' birth in 1477.
All of these factors make it plain that Margaret Butler, wife of Sir
William Boleyn, was born sometime before 1465. I vote for a birthdate
for Margaret Butler of around 1460. I might add that Mr. Sergeant had
no knowledge of the 1469 documents I posted.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
< Dear Douglas
<
< I am not familiar with Mr Sergeant's work, so I am unable to assess
< this appeal to his authority. It would be interesting to know,
< however, why we should assent to his assertion that a birthdate of
1464
< or 1465 [ie aged 20 in 1485] for Lady Margaret Boleyn is
"impossible".
< Is it because she had a child "born in 1477"? If so, should we not
not
< find it impossible that Margaret Beaufort was a mother in 1456 at the
< age of 13? Is it because she would therefore have been married at
the
< age of four? If so, what are we to make of other child-marriages from
< the period in question?
<
< Is it likely? Certainly not. Is it impossible? By no means.
<
< I look forward to your further thoughts.
<
< Regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson wrote:
I suspect you are right, but wonder whether the assent of a married
woman was ever independently required, given that her husband usually
exercised all of her rights, regardless of her age.
I am not sure why this should be the case, but perhaps I am being
obtuse. Why could a man settle lands on a thirteen year old girl, but
not, say, on a ten year old? In either case, if she were married, the
settlement would be made to feofees on her behalf, and as I understand
it such settlements could be made in favour of minors of any age.
Yet we see other contemporary exceptions to this "rule": e.g. Richard,
Duke of York, married at the age of four in 1478, to a five year old
bride.
Thanks, Douglas - I greatly appreciate your having taken the time to
flesh this out. I would also vote for a circa 1460 birthdate, but I
still think there is a (small) chance that c1464 could be right, thus
leaving this a likely CP correction only.
Regards, Michael
Dear Michael ~
In the second document dated 1469 which I posted yesterday, it is
stated that the agreement regarding the manor of Virworthy, Devon was
made with "the assent of William and Margaret Boleyn." I find it
impossible that a four year old wife would be able to give legal assent
to such an agreement.
I suspect you are right, but wonder whether the assent of a married
woman was ever independently required, given that her husband usually
exercised all of her rights, regardless of her age.
More than likely, Margaret Butler was aged 12-14
at the time of this document, which would place her birth at
approximately 1455-1457. At the very least, Margaret Butler would
surely have been at least 13 years of age in 1473, in which year her
husband, William Boleyn, turned 22, by which date William was required
to have settled lands on Margaret.
I am not sure why this should be the case, but perhaps I am being
obtuse. Why could a man settle lands on a thirteen year old girl, but
not, say, on a ten year old? In either case, if she were married, the
settlement would be made to feofees on her behalf, and as I understand
it such settlements could be made in favour of minors of any age.
This would mean Margaret was born
no later than 1460, and thus would be aged 17 at her first son, Thomas'
birth in 1477. This time frame makes sense to me. Likewise, by church
law, Margaret had to be at least aged 7 for her to contract a valid
marriage.
Yet we see other contemporary exceptions to this "rule": e.g. Richard,
Duke of York, married at the age of four in 1478, to a five year old
bride.
This would place her birth as no later than 1462, or make
her at least aged 15 at her son, Thomas' birth in 1477.
All of these factors make it plain that Margaret Butler, wife of Sir
William Boleyn, was born sometime before 1465. I vote for a birthdate
for Margaret Butler of around 1460.
Thanks, Douglas - I greatly appreciate your having taken the time to
flesh this out. I would also vote for a circa 1460 birthdate, but I
still think there is a (small) chance that c1464 could be right, thus
leaving this a likely CP correction only.
Regards, Michael
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
We are apparently seeing a child bride marriage in this case, as we
know that William Boleyn and Margaret Butler were married in or before
November 1469, yet William was not required to settle lands on Margaret
until he was aged 22 in about 1473. The delay in the settlement of
lands was evidently due to the fact that Margaret was still under age
in 1469, and had not yet consummated the marriage.
The settlement of lands presumably would have taken place in or around
the time the bride was aged 13 or 14, whern such marriages were usually
consummated. If so, this would peg Margaret's birth at about 1459 ot
1460. That is why I used the age 13 in this case. A birthdate of 1460
would make Margaret aged 17 at the birth of her first son, Thmas, in
1477. This time frame sounds very agreeable to me.
However, if the marriage was only contracted and not consummated in
1469, I find it odd that William and Margaret would be termed husband
and wife and said to give mutual consent to an agreement in 1469, when
Margaret was still only 9 or 10. Normally you find such agreements
made after the marriage has been consummated.
Regardless, I believe that the settlement of the lands which was
scheduled to take place about 1473 is the real key to Margaret Butler's
age. This should have been when she was about 13 or 14.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
We are apparently seeing a child bride marriage in this case, as we
know that William Boleyn and Margaret Butler were married in or before
November 1469, yet William was not required to settle lands on Margaret
until he was aged 22 in about 1473. The delay in the settlement of
lands was evidently due to the fact that Margaret was still under age
in 1469, and had not yet consummated the marriage.
The settlement of lands presumably would have taken place in or around
the time the bride was aged 13 or 14, whern such marriages were usually
consummated. If so, this would peg Margaret's birth at about 1459 ot
1460. That is why I used the age 13 in this case. A birthdate of 1460
would make Margaret aged 17 at the birth of her first son, Thmas, in
1477. This time frame sounds very agreeable to me.
However, if the marriage was only contracted and not consummated in
1469, I find it odd that William and Margaret would be termed husband
and wife and said to give mutual consent to an agreement in 1469, when
Margaret was still only 9 or 10. Normally you find such agreements
made after the marriage has been consummated.
Regardless, I believe that the settlement of the lands which was
scheduled to take place about 1473 is the real key to Margaret Butler's
age. This should have been when she was about 13 or 14.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
As further evidence that Queen Elizabeth I's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... mVybjBRlt0
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As further evidence that Queen Elizabeth I's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... mVybjBRlt0
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
As further evidence that Queen Elizabeth I's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... mVybjBRlt0
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As further evidence that Queen Elizabeth I's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... mVybjBRlt0
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 133, footnote b (sub Ormond) states that
Lady Margaret (Butler) Boleyn, the paternal grandmother of Queen
Anne Boleyn, was aged 20 in 1485, or born about 1465. This age is
presumably derived from her mother's inquisition post mortem which
taken in 1485. However, Margaret Butler was evidently born somewhat
earlier than 1465. The documents below prove that Margaret Butler and
her husband, Sir William Boleyn, were married before 16 November 1469.
Elsewhere, Complete Peerage shows that Margaret Butler's son and heir,
Thomas Boleyn, was born in 1477 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 10
(1945): 137, footnote d (sub Ormond)].
As for Sir William Boleyn, I find that he was admitted to Mercers'
Company in London in 1472, and was also admitted to Lincoln's Inn in
1473. For an indication of Sir William Boleyn's approximate birthdate,
I find that Sir John Cheyne, a contemporary individual, was admitted to
Lincoln's Inn in 1446, at the approximate age of 22, Sir John being
aged 38 in 1462. If Sir William Boleyn was admitted to Lincoln's Inn
at a similar age, he would have been born about 1451. This estimated
birthdate is in agreement with the second document copied below, which
indicates William Boleyn had not yet reached his 22nd birthdate on 18
November 1469. Thus, we can be certain that Sir William Boleyn was
born sometime after 18 November 1447.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/error/access.asp)
Item #1.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/1
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas [Bourgchier] cardinal archbishop of Canterbury, George
[Nevill] archbishop of York, Richard [Nevill] earl of Warwick and
Salisbury, William Bourchier, knight, Lord FitzWaryn, Thomas Barnes and
Richard Vyell; (2) Thomas Boleyn, clerk, John Heydon, Henry Heydon,
Thomas Boleyn, esquire, Roger Copley, merchant, and Valentine Lexham;
(3) William Boleyn and Margaret his wife. 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas and the others in (1) hold the manor of Vera Worthy
(Devon), to the use of Anne wife of Thomas Ormond alias Thomas Botiller
for the life of Thomas, they have granted the manor to Thomas Boleyn
and the others in (2), to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his
wife, daughter of Thomas Ormonde and Anne, for the life of Thomas, to
the value of 20 marks a year, any surplus to be rendered to the
original feoffees in (1).
Witnesses: John Pollard, esquire, John Gyfford, esquire, John Dogham,
John William, John Dygge.
Item #2.
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments
Reference: BCM/H/1/3/2
Creation dates: [1469]
Scope and Content
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(1)]; and Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and others [as above in BCM/H/1/3/1
(2)].18 Nov. 9 Edw. IV
Whereas Thomas archbishop of Canterbury and the others [named], by a
deed dated 16 Nov. 9 Edw. IV, have demised the manor of Vera Worthy and
other lands and holdings there to Thomas Boleyn, clerk, and the others
[named], to the use of William Boleyn and Margaret his wife, daughter
of Sir Thomas Ormond, knight, and of Anne his wife, for the life of
Thomas Ormond, nevertheless, by the assent of William and Margaret
Boleyn, it has been agreed that if William, within two months after his
twenty-second birthday, makes to Margaret for her life a sufficient
jointure in lands in Kent to the value of £20 a year, Thomas Boleyn
and the others shall retain the manor of Vera Worthy, and that if the
jointure is not made, then the archbishops and the others shall enter
the manor.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, this morning I located some
additional information regarding the birthdate of Sir William Boleyn,
the paternal grandfather of Queen Anne Boleyn, in the book, The Life
of Anne Boleyn (1924), by Philip W. Sergeant, pg. 2. This information
shows that Sir William Boleyn was born about 1451, as I estimated in my
previous post.
pg. 2: "Sir Geoffrey [Boleyn] and his wife had a son William, who was
born about 1451. In the "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem" of the
reign of Henry VII. are two entries concerning a certain Thomas Hoo,
owner of the manor of Offeley, Hertfordshire, who died on October 8th,
1486. The manor, it appears, had been remaindered to Anne, wife of
Geoffrey Boleyn, and she, being dead, it thus came to her son. In the
second entry, a writ dated October 17th, 1487, it is stated that "Wm.
Boleyn, knt., aged 36 and more, is his [Thomas Hoo's] cousin and heir,
viz., son of Anne, daughter of Lord de Hoo and Hastynges, his brother."
END OF QUOTE.
On page 3, the author, Mr. Sergeant, acknowledges that Sir William
Boleyn's wife, Margaret Butler, was stated to be aged 20 in 1485, which
he finds "impossible."
For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir William Boleyn and his wife, Margaret
Butler:
1. Elizabeth Alsop.
2. Anne Humphrey.
3. Thomas Lunsford.
4. Herbert Pelham.
5. John West
For the links between the individual immigrants and the Boleyn family,
see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenert Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As a followup to my original post, this morning I located some
additional information regarding the birthdate of Sir William Boleyn,
the paternal grandfather of Queen Anne Boleyn, in the book, The Life
of Anne Boleyn (1924), by Philip W. Sergeant, pg. 2. This information
shows that Sir William Boleyn was born about 1451, as I estimated in my
previous post.
pg. 2: "Sir Geoffrey [Boleyn] and his wife had a son William, who was
born about 1451. In the "Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem" of the
reign of Henry VII. are two entries concerning a certain Thomas Hoo,
owner of the manor of Offeley, Hertfordshire, who died on October 8th,
1486. The manor, it appears, had been remaindered to Anne, wife of
Geoffrey Boleyn, and she, being dead, it thus came to her son. In the
second entry, a writ dated October 17th, 1487, it is stated that "Wm.
Boleyn, knt., aged 36 and more, is his [Thomas Hoo's] cousin and heir,
viz., son of Anne, daughter of Lord de Hoo and Hastynges, his brother."
END OF QUOTE.
On page 3, the author, Mr. Sergeant, acknowledges that Sir William
Boleyn's wife, Margaret Butler, was stated to be aged 20 in 1485, which
he finds "impossible."
For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir William Boleyn and his wife, Margaret
Butler:
1. Elizabeth Alsop.
2. Anne Humphrey.
3. Thomas Lunsford.
4. Herbert Pelham.
5. John West
For the links between the individual immigrants and the Boleyn family,
see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenert Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
As further evidence that Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... BgC&pg=P...
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
As further evidence that Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Lady Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, was born before 1465, I might note that Margaret
Butler's first daughter, Anne Boleyn, was born in 1475. This is proven
by the monumental brass of Anne Boleyn, a drawing of which is found in
the book, Medieval Children (2001), by Nicholas Orme, pg. 44. The
drawing can be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... BgC&pg=P...
The brass reads as follows (my translation from the Latin):
"Here lies Anne Boleyn daughter of William Boleyn, Esquire, aged three
years, eleven months, and thirteen days who died the last day in
October in the year of our Lord 1479 ..."
I believe the arms on Anne Boleyn's tomb are Boleyn (Argent, a chevron
gules between 3 bulls' heads couped sable, langued of the second),
quartering Ormond (Or, a chief indented azure).
Thus, it is clear that Margaret (Butler) Boleyn can not have been born
about 1465, as stated by Complete Peerage. Rather, a birthdate of
about 1460 for her seems to be in order. Margaret Butler married as a
child before before 16 Nov. 1469, Sir William Boleyn. She presumably
consummated her marriage about 1473 (by which date lands were to be
settled on her by her husband), and had her first daughter, Anne, in
1475 and her first son, Thomas, in 1477.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Many thanks for detailing your reasoning in this respect, Douglas - I
am very grateful and found the further information most interesting.
Regards, Michael
Dear Michael ~
We are apparently seeing a child bride marriage in this case, as we
know that William Boleyn and Margaret Butler were married in or before
November 1469, yet William was not required to settle lands on Margaret
until he was aged 22 in about 1473. The delay in the settlement of
lands was evidently due to the fact that Margaret was still under age
in 1469, and had not yet consummated the marriage.
The settlement of lands presumably would have taken place in or around
the time the bride was aged 13 or 14, whern such marriages were usually
consummated. If so, this would peg Margaret's birth at about 1459 ot
1460. That is why I used the age 13 in this case. A birthdate of 1460
would make Margaret aged 17 at the birth of her first son, Thmas, in
1477. This time frame sounds very agreeable to me.
Many thanks for detailing your reasoning in this respect, Douglas - I
am very grateful and found the further information most interesting.
Regards, Michael
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Newsgroup ~
I understand that there is an article on the Boleyn family entitled
"Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E. Parsons, in Norfolk
Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
This particular volume was not on the shelf at the library here when I
checked this past week. If anyone has access to a copy of this
article, I'd appreciate knowing what it says about the birth and
marriage dates of Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Margaret Butler, and
the births of Margaret's children.
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
I understand that there is an article on the Boleyn family entitled
"Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E. Parsons, in Norfolk
Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
This particular volume was not on the shelf at the library here when I
checked this past week. If anyone has access to a copy of this
article, I'd appreciate knowing what it says about the birth and
marriage dates of Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Margaret Butler, and
the births of Margaret's children.
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
ODNB calls George the only son of Thomas Bullen. However, Anne, in her
corresponding article, is called "the second of three *surviving*
children" [my emphasis].
"Hever Castle", the eponymous guide which I picked up at Hever when I
was last there, states "Sir Thomas and Lady Elizabeth Bullen had
several children, but most of them died in infancy. One is buried in
St Peter's Church, Hever, and another at Penshurst, five (sic) miles
away.
I can dig out my notes on St Peter's church, with further details of
many of the monuments, if you wish.
Regards, Michael
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
ODNB calls George the only son of Thomas Bullen. However, Anne, in her
corresponding article, is called "the second of three *surviving*
children" [my emphasis].
"Hever Castle", the eponymous guide which I picked up at Hever when I
was last there, states "Sir Thomas and Lady Elizabeth Bullen had
several children, but most of them died in infancy. One is buried in
St Peter's Church, Hever, and another at Penshurst, five (sic) miles
away.
I can dig out my notes on St Peter's church, with further details of
many of the monuments, if you wish.
Regards, Michael
-
John Higgins
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
If "the library here" is the FHL in SLC (your usual stomping ground), it
appears that they also have a copy of this particular volume on microfilm.
(Helpful hint: always check the catalog for alternatives....)
Perhaps you could check out the microfilm "at your earliest
convenience"....and let us know what you find.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of William
Boleyn, K.B.
appears that they also have a copy of this particular volume on microfilm.
(Helpful hint: always check the catalog for alternatives....)
Perhaps you could check out the microfilm "at your earliest
convenience"....and let us know what you find.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of William
Boleyn, K.B.
Dear Newsgroup ~
I understand that there is an article on the Boleyn family entitled
"Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E. Parsons, in Norfolk
Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
This particular volume was not on the shelf at the library here when I
checked this past week. If anyone has access to a copy of this
article, I'd appreciate knowing what it says about the birth and
marriage dates of Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Margaret Butler, and
the births of Margaret's children.
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
The Family History Library here in Salt Lake City has the following
volumes of Norfolk Archaeology:
V. 1-12, V. 13, pts. 1-2, V. 14-23, V. 24, pt. 3, V. 25, pt. 1, V. 26,
pts. 1-2, V. 27-34, V. 35, pt, 1-4, V. 36, pts. 1-4, V. 37- , index V.
1-30.
The Boleyn article I asked about appears to be in Vol. 25, pt. 2, 3 or
4, which the library does not own. If anyone has access to the Boleyn
article, I'd appreciate it if they would check it for the items I
mentioned.
DR
"John Higgins" wrote:
volumes of Norfolk Archaeology:
V. 1-12, V. 13, pts. 1-2, V. 14-23, V. 24, pt. 3, V. 25, pt. 1, V. 26,
pts. 1-2, V. 27-34, V. 35, pt, 1-4, V. 36, pts. 1-4, V. 37- , index V.
1-30.
The Boleyn article I asked about appears to be in Vol. 25, pt. 2, 3 or
4, which the library does not own. If anyone has access to the Boleyn
article, I'd appreciate it if they would check it for the items I
mentioned.
DR
"John Higgins" wrote:
If "the library here" is the FHL in SLC (your usual stomping ground), it
appears that they also have a copy of this particular volume on microfilm.
(Helpful hint: always check the catalog for alternatives....)
Perhaps you could check out the microfilm "at your earliest
convenience"....and let us know what you find.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of William
Boleyn, K.B.
Dear Newsgroup ~
I understand that there is an article on the Boleyn family entitled
"Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E. Parsons, in Norfolk
Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
This particular volume was not on the shelf at the library here when I
checked this past week. If anyone has access to a copy of this
article, I'd appreciate knowing what it says about the birth and
marriage dates of Queen Anne Boleyn's grandmother, Margaret Butler, and
the births of Margaret's children.
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Dear Michael ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
When you have time, by all means, please post what details you can find
about the Boleyn family monuments. This definitely has the makings for
another valid Complete Pererage correction.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
When you have time, by all means, please post what details you can find
about the Boleyn family monuments. This definitely has the makings for
another valid Complete Pererage correction.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Likewise, Complete Peerage states that Queen Anne Boleyn's father, Sir
Thomas Boleyn, had an only son and heir apparent, George Boleyn.
However, I've found statements online that he also had sons, Henry and
Thomas. Henry is reportedly interred in the family vault at Hever,
Kent, whereas Thomas is allegedly buried at Penshurt Chapel seven miles
away. I'd be interested in knowing if the Boleyn article verifies the
existence of Queen Anne Boleyn's brothers, Henry and Thomas.
ODNB calls George the only son of Thomas Bullen. However, Anne, in her
corresponding article, is called "the second of three *surviving*
children" [my emphasis].
"Hever Castle", the eponymous guide which I picked up at Hever when I
was last there, states "Sir Thomas and Lady Elizabeth Bullen had
several children, but most of them died in infancy. One is buried in
St Peter's Church, Hever, and another at Penshurst, five (sic) miles
away.
I can dig out my notes on St Peter's church, with further details of
many of the monuments, if you wish.
Regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Douglas
The Guide, which is called "St Peter's Church, Hever, Kent" but is
undated and unattributed, states (p3, under the heading 'The Bullen
Chapel'):
"At the south-west corner of the tomb [of Sir Thomas Bullen] lies a
memorial to Henry, the infant son of Sir Thomas".
I am afraid my notes from my visit to the church last year concentrate
on the Cheyne monuments, so I do not have the text of Henry Bullen's
memorial.
Regards, Michael
Dear Michael ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
When you have time, by all means, please post what details you can find
about the Boleyn family monuments. This definitely has the makings for
another valid Complete Pererage correction.
Dear Douglas
The Guide, which is called "St Peter's Church, Hever, Kent" but is
undated and unattributed, states (p3, under the heading 'The Bullen
Chapel'):
"At the south-west corner of the tomb [of Sir Thomas Bullen] lies a
memorial to Henry, the infant son of Sir Thomas".
I am afraid my notes from my visit to the church last year concentrate
on the Cheyne monuments, so I do not have the text of Henry Bullen's
memorial.
Regards, Michael
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Thank you, Michael. This appears to be another valid Complete Peerage
correction. Makes you wonder how Complete Peerage missed Henry
Boleyn's tomb.
Hopefully someone else here on the newsgroup has specific particulars
about Henry Boleyn's tomb at Hever, Kent. Quite possibily his tomb is
discussed in the Boleyn article in Norfolk Archaeology, Volume 25.
DR
m...@btinternet.com wrote:
correction. Makes you wonder how Complete Peerage missed Henry
Boleyn's tomb.
Hopefully someone else here on the newsgroup has specific particulars
about Henry Boleyn's tomb at Hever, Kent. Quite possibily his tomb is
discussed in the Boleyn article in Norfolk Archaeology, Volume 25.
DR
m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Michael ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
When you have time, by all means, please post what details you can find
about the Boleyn family monuments. This definitely has the makings for
another valid Complete Pererage correction.
Dear Douglas
The Guide, which is called "St Peter's Church, Hever, Kent" but is
undated and unattributed, states (p3, under the heading 'The Bullen
Chapel'):
"At the south-west corner of the tomb [of Sir Thomas Bullen] lies a
memorial to Henry, the infant son of Sir Thomas".
I am afraid my notes from my visit to the church last year concentrate
on the Cheyne monuments, so I do not have the text of Henry Bullen's
memorial.
Regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
m...@btinternet.com schrieb:
I posted too hastily. Page 6 of the Guide states:
"Sir Thomas [Bullen] lies in the chapel and beside him is the grave of
his little son Henry, marked only with a cross", so presumably there is
no MI.
I also looked at Dugdale's Baronage, sub Bullen, Eark of Wiltshire, and
this also states that Sir Thomas had only one son, Viscount Rochdale.
MA-R
The Guide, which is called "St Peter's Church, Hever, Kent" but is
undated and unattributed, states (p3, under the heading 'The Bullen
Chapel'):
"At the south-west corner of the tomb [of Sir Thomas Bullen] lies a
memorial to Henry, the infant son of Sir Thomas".
I am afraid my notes from my visit to the church last year concentrate
on the Cheyne monuments, so I do not have the text of Henry Bullen's
memorial.
I posted too hastily. Page 6 of the Guide states:
"Sir Thomas [Bullen] lies in the chapel and beside him is the grave of
his little son Henry, marked only with a cross", so presumably there is
no MI.
I also looked at Dugdale's Baronage, sub Bullen, Eark of Wiltshire, and
this also states that Sir Thomas had only one son, Viscount Rochdale.
MA-R
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
I'd very be very grateful if someone posted particulars on Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, her children, and grandchildren which may be mentioned
in the article entitled "Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E.
Parsons, in Norfolk Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
(Butler) Boleyn, her children, and grandchildren which may be mentioned
in the article entitled "Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E.
Parsons, in Norfolk Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Douglas
I intend to call in at the Society of Genealogists later this week;
they have many of the Norfolk Archaeology series, but I think there are
some gaps - I will see what I can find and report back.
Regards, Michael
I'd very be very grateful if someone posted particulars on Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, her children, and grandchildren which may be mentioned
in the article entitled "Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E.
Parsons, in Norfolk Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
Dear Douglas
I intend to call in at the Society of Genealogists later this week;
they have many of the Norfolk Archaeology series, but I think there are
some gaps - I will see what I can find and report back.
Regards, Michael
-
Renia
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Oh, almost my second home. I do miss it.
I intend to call in at the Society of Genealogists later this week;
Oh, almost my second home. I do miss it.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Thank you, Michael. Much appreciated.
DR
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
DR
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
I'd very be very grateful if someone posted particulars on Margaret
(Butler) Boleyn, her children, and grandchildren which may be mentioned
in the article entitled "Some Notes on the Boleyn Family," by W.L.E.
Parsons, in Norfolk Archaeology, 25 (1935): 386-407.
Dear Douglas
I intend to call in at the Society of Genealogists later this week;
they have many of the Norfolk Archaeology series, but I think there are
some gaps - I will see what I can find and report back.
Regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Douglas
I'm sorry to report that the Society of Genealogists does not have
volume 25 of Norfolk Genealogy - their collection has several gaps,
amongst which are volumes 24 to 31 inclusive.
Regards, Michael
Thank you, Michael. Much appreciated.
DR
Dear Douglas
I'm sorry to report that the Society of Genealogists does not have
volume 25 of Norfolk Genealogy - their collection has several gaps,
amongst which are volumes 24 to 31 inclusive.
Regards, Michael