SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcotis (and Livings

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SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcotis (and Livings

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2006 20:05:48

Friday, 5 May, 2006


Hello All,

Several years ago, I had raised the issue of the relationship
between William Livingston of Kilsyth (d. bef 20 Apr 1460) and his
wife Elizabeth de Caldcotis, noted in Scots Peerage and elsewhere,
but which had not been resolved to date [1].
References to the de Caldecote family are rare, but this week
I found several references to heraldic seals of family members in
Stevenson's Scottish Heraldic Seals. That of 'Elizabeth Caldecote'
was noted (charter of 8 Nov 1459), and interestingly also that of
'Christiana Caldecote', evidently her mother:

" CALDECOTE, Christiana, widow of William Caldecote, daughter
of Walter Twedy. A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the
latter charged with a star in dexter and two escallops.
Legend (l.c.): KYRSTIANE DE CALDCOTTIS. Diam. 1 3/16 in.
Laing, ii. 158. Reg. Ho. Ch., 6 Jan. 1424-5, two of same
date - Cast. ' [2]

Beyond providing this possible identification of Elizabeth de
Caldecote's mother, this entry also appears to provide the link
between Elizabeth de Caldcotis' ancestry and that of William
Livingston. The Tweedies of Drummelzier (or Drummelioure),
Peebleshire are known to have been related to the Douglases of
Dalkeith. Mark Freeman cites an alleged relationship, with
Walter Tweedie (son of James 'Tuedy' and an unnamed Douglas) as
the husband of a daughter of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith and
Agnes Dunbar [3]. While the possibility that Agnes Dunbar could
have been the ancestress of Elizabeth de Caldcotis is unlikely
from a chronological basis, Freeman does cite a charter in the
"Tweedie Charters and Writs" in which Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith (d. 1441) made a grant to Elizabeth Tweedie and her
husband Richard Brown,

' ... and she is called 'neptem' of Sir James Douglas,
which means either niece or grand-daughter. Probably
she was James Tweedie's sister, and the presumption is
that Walter, their father, had married a sister (or
daughter) of Sir James Douglas. ' [4]

Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith (d. 1420) certainly had issue by
at least one other woman (possibly wife) besides Agnes Dunbar, and
likely before. His illegitimate son, Sir James Douglas of Aberdour,
fought with his brothers James and William, and brother-in-law Sir
John Livingston of Callendar, at Homildon on 14 Sept 1402 [5],
and his daughter Margaret is presumed to have been illegitimate [6].
The following conjectural chart agrees with all the known facts and
conjectures (incl. those of Freeman), including the 3rd degree
relationship cited in the 1421 dispensation:

[ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Conjectured
relationships are denoted _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]


NN ~ Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith = 1) Agnes Dunbar
_ _ _ I d. 1420 _________I_______________
I I I
NN = Walter Tweedie Agnes = Sir John Sir James
[Douglas?] I of Drumelzier Douglas I Livingston 'uncle'
_ _ _ _ _I____________ d. aft I k. Homildon <*>
I I I 1421 I 1402
James Elizabeth Christian I
Tweedie 'neptem' = William I
of Sir de Caldcotis I
James I I
Douglas <*> I I
Elizabeth = William Livingston
de Caldcotis I of Kilsyth
m. bef 12 Nov 1421 I d. bef 20 Apr 1460
I
V


It will be noted that William Livingston and Elizabeth de
Caldcotis are shown as being related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees
of consanguinity: this is, however, one of the relationships that
would be covered by the less than exact description of "the third
degree of kindred" [or "tertio consanguinitatis gradu"] as stated
in the 1421 dispensation.

Should anyone have additional documentation, comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] <Graden, co. Berwicks., Elizabeth de Caldcotis and the
Livingstons of Kilsyth>, SGM, 15 Nov 2003. Reference is to
SP V:184, which states that William and Elizabeth were related
in the 3rd degree of consanguinity. Andrew Stuart provided the
text of the dispensation, which says of the pair ['dilecti filii
nobilis viri Willelmi de Leuynston Domicelli et delict in
Christo filie nobilis mulieris Elisabeth de Caldcotis
Domicelle'] that they had a postnuptial dispensation
granted 12 Nov 1421, they being related in the 3rd degree of
consanguinity - "tertio consanguinitatis gradu" [Stuart,
Genealogical History of the Stuarts, p. 453].


[2] John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals (Glasgow: Robert MacLehose & Co.,
Ltd., 1940), II:268. The heraldic seal of Elizabeth de
Caldcotis is described in the same source as follows:

' CALDECOTE, Elizabeth, daughter of William Caldecote of
Grayden, wife of William Livingston of Balcastel (or of
Kilsyth). A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the latter
charged with three escallops. Foliage at top and sides of
shield. Legend (l.c.): S ELISABETH DE LEVINGSTON.
Diam. 1 1/16 in. Laing, ii. 159. Reg. Ho. Ch., No. 357
(2), 8 Nov. 1459 - Cast. '


[3] Mark Freeman, "Douglas Family", URL
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~markfreeman/douglas.html


[4] Ibid., see notes under "107. [Daughter]Douglas.... She
married Walter Tweedie,..."


[5] SP VI:349, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_ .


[6] Ibid., p. 350.


* John P. Ravilious

Douglas Richardson

Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcote (and Livi

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 mai 2006 20:05:49

Dear John ~

It appears that if Elizabeth Tweedie, wife of Richard Brown, was the
niece ["neptem"] of James Douglas (died 1420), rather than his
grand-daughter, that Elizabeth's own niece, Elizabeth de Caldecote,
would be related in the 3rd and 3rd degrees to William Livingston, as
stated in their dispensation. That arrangement makes sense to me.

By your arrangement, however, you have Elizabeth Tweedie as the
granddaughter of James Douglas (died 1420), which in turn causes
Elizabeth Tweedie's niece, Elizabeth de Caldecote, to be related to
William Livingston in the 2nd and 3rd degrees. I can't speak for
Scottish families, but I can assure you that under most circumstances,
a marriage of 2nd and 3rd degree would not have been allowed in
England. Third and third degree marriages are common enough, however.

Would the chronology permit Elizabeth Tweedie to be James Douglas'
niece?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Friday, 5 May, 2006


Hello All,

Several years ago, I had raised the issue of the relationship
between William Livingston of Kilsyth (d. bef 20 Apr 1460) and his
wife Elizabeth de Caldcotis, noted in Scots Peerage and elsewhere,
but which had not been resolved to date [1].
References to the de Caldecote family are rare, but this week
I found several references to heraldic seals of family members in
Stevenson's Scottish Heraldic Seals. That of 'Elizabeth Caldecote'
was noted (charter of 8 Nov 1459), and interestingly also that of
'Christiana Caldecote', evidently her mother:

" CALDECOTE, Christiana, widow of William Caldecote, daughter
of Walter Twedy. A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the
latter charged with a star in dexter and two escallops.
Legend (l.c.): KYRSTIANE DE CALDCOTTIS. Diam. 1 3/16 in.
Laing, ii. 158. Reg. Ho. Ch., 6 Jan. 1424-5, two of same
date - Cast. ' [2]

Beyond providing this possible identification of Elizabeth de
Caldecote's mother, this entry also appears to provide the link
between Elizabeth de Caldcotis' ancestry and that of William
Livingston. The Tweedies of Drummelzier (or Drummelioure),
Peebleshire are known to have been related to the Douglases of
Dalkeith. Mark Freeman cites an alleged relationship, with
Walter Tweedie (son of James 'Tuedy' and an unnamed Douglas) as
the husband of a daughter of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith and
Agnes Dunbar [3]. While the possibility that Agnes Dunbar could
have been the ancestress of Elizabeth de Caldcotis is unlikely
from a chronological basis, Freeman does cite a charter in the
"Tweedie Charters and Writs" in which Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith (d. 1441) made a grant to Elizabeth Tweedie and her
husband Richard Brown,

' ... and she is called 'neptem' of Sir James Douglas,
which means either niece or grand-daughter. Probably
she was James Tweedie's sister, and the presumption is
that Walter, their father, had married a sister (or
daughter) of Sir James Douglas. ' [4]

Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith (d. 1420) certainly had issue by
at least one other woman (possibly wife) besides Agnes Dunbar, and
likely before. His illegitimate son, Sir James Douglas of Aberdour,
fought with his brothers James and William, and brother-in-law Sir
John Livingston of Callendar, at Homildon on 14 Sept 1402 [5],
and his daughter Margaret is presumed to have been illegitimate [6].
The following conjectural chart agrees with all the known facts and
conjectures (incl. those of Freeman), including the 3rd degree
relationship cited in the 1421 dispensation:

[ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Conjectured
relationships are denoted _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]


NN ~ Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith = 1) Agnes Dunbar
_ _ _ I d. 1420 _________I_______________
I I I
NN = Walter Tweedie Agnes = Sir John Sir James
[Douglas?] I of Drumelzier Douglas I Livingston 'uncle'
_ _ _ _ _I____________ d. aft I k. Homildon <*
I I I 1421 I 1402
James Elizabeth Christian I
Tweedie 'neptem' = William I
of Sir de Caldcote I
James I I
Douglas <*> I I
Elizabeth = William Livingston
de Caldcote I of Kilsyth
m. bef 12 Nov 1421 I d. bef 20 Apr 1460
I
V


It will be noted that William Livingston and Elizabeth de
Caldcotis are shown as being related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees
of consanguinity: this is, however, one of the relationships that
would be covered by the less than exact description of "the third
degree of kindred" [or "tertio consanguinitatis gradu"] as stated
in the 1421 dispensation.

Should anyone have additional documentation, comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] <Graden, co. Berwicks., Elizabeth de Caldcotis and the
Livingstons of Kilsyth>, SGM, 15 Nov 2003. Reference is to
SP V:184, which states that William and Elizabeth were related
in the 3rd degree of consanguinity. Andrew Stuart provided the
text of the dispensation, which says of the pair ['dilecti filii
nobilis viri Willelmi de Leuynston Domicelli et delict in
Christo filie nobilis mulieris Elisabeth de Caldcotis
Domicelle'] that they had a postnuptial dispensation
granted 12 Nov 1421, they being related in the 3rd degree of
consanguinity - "tertio consanguinitatis gradu" [Stuart,
Genealogical History of the Stuarts, p. 453].


[2] John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals (Glasgow: Robert MacLehose & Co.,
Ltd., 1940), II:268. The heraldic seal of Elizabeth de
Caldcotis is described in the same source as follows:

' CALDECOTE, Elizabeth, daughter of William Caldecote of
Grayden, wife of William Livingston of Balcastel (or of
Kilsyth). A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the latter
charged with three escallops. Foliage at top and sides of
shield. Legend (l.c.): S ELISABETH DE LEVINGSTON.
Diam. 1 1/16 in. Laing, ii. 159. Reg. Ho. Ch., No. 357
(2), 8 Nov. 1459 - Cast. '


[3] Mark Freeman, "Douglas Family", URL
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~markfreeman/douglas.html


[4] Ibid., see notes under "107. [Daughter]Douglas.... She
married Walter Tweedie,..."


[5] SP VI:349, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_ .


[6] Ibid., p. 350.


* John P. Ravilious

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