King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2003, I posted a reference in which King Philippe Auguste of
France referred to Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, as his cousin
[Reference: M.J. Monicat, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Auguste Roi de
France, 3 (1996): 509-510 (Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, styled "cousin"
by King Philippe Auguste), 530-531]. At the time, I had no idea as to
the identity of Robert, Bishop elect of Puy. After my original post,
Frank Young, of Maryland, kindly posted particulars of Bishop Robert,
indicating that he was Robert de Mehun (died 1219), son of Philippe de
Mehun, seigneur of Mehun-sur-Yevre, and also that Robert had a sister,
Mahaut de Mehun (died 1240), who married Robert de Courtenay (died
1239), seigneur of Champignelles. That solved the question of Bishop
Robert's identity, but not how he was related to King Philippe Auguste.
This past month I located a charter issued by King Philippe Auguste's
father, King Louis VII of France, in which King Louis VII specifically
states that Gimon II de Mehun (great-grandfather of Bishop Robert de
Mehun) married one of King Louis VII's kinswomen ["consanguineam
nostram"] sometime in the period, 1141-1142. A modern transcript of
this charter is found in the book, Études sur les Actes de Louis VII,
by Achille Luchaire (1885): 128, 364. For interest's sake, I've copied
the transcript further below, along with the modern précis prepared by
Professor Luchaire.
For Bishop Robert de Mehun's descent from Gimon II de Mehun, please see
the weblinks below. In the first database cited below, Gimon II de
Mehun is correctly called Gimon, but in the second database, he is
inexpeciably called Simon de Mehun. I might also note that in the
first database below, the mother of Bishop Robert de Mehun is
identified as Marguerite de Graçay, which information unfortunately is
not sourced.
http://www.chez.com/solier/index3.htm
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/dat532.htm#30
As best I can tell, the identity of the wife of Gimon II de Mehun is
unknown. Whoever she was, she was clearly closely related to King
Louis VII of France. One possibility is that Gimon II de Mehun's wife
was a daughter of King Louis VII's older illegitimate sister, Isabelle,
wife of Guillaume de Chaumont. However, if that were the case, one
might expect to see Gimon II de Mehun's wife styled the king's niece,
not his kinswoman. Elsewhere, I note that one online database
indicates that King Louis VII's uncle, Fleury (or Floire) of France,
seigneur of Nagis, born about 1093, living 1118, had an unnamed
daughter who married Milon de Melun. Since the name, Milon de Melun,
is similar in sound to Gimon de Mehun, I can't help but wonder if the
name, Milon de Melun, is not intended for Gimon de Mehun. If so, it
would readily place Gimon de Mehun's wife in the family tree of the
French royal family.
If anyone has definite particulars about the children of Fleury (or
Floire) de France, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the
newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Études sur les Actes de Louis VII, by Achille Luchaire (1885).
pg. 128:
1141, du 1er août, au 18 avril 1142, Nibelle. Apud Nibellam, a. 1141,
r. 3. - Louis VII confirme en faveur de l'abbé Blihard les donations
faites à l'abbaye de Lorroi par Sarlon de Ménetou: une partie des
prés de Davé; les terres dites Chezal-Doan, Chezal-Bernuan, Vigne, le
bois situé près de la forêt Marezoil; toutes possessions dont
l'abbaye avait été investie, en présence du roi et avec son
assentiment, par Gimon de Mehun, avant qu'il se fût allié à la
famille royale. Orig., Bibl. Nat., latin 9217.
pg. 364:
1141-1142, Bibliothèque Nationale, latin 9217 (collection de
chartes), original parchemin; le sceau et l'attache ont disparu.
In nomine sancte et individue Trinitatis. Ego Ludovicus, Dei gracia
rex Francorum et dux Aquitanorum. Notum fieri volumus tam futuris quam
presentibus quod, in manu Blihardi abbatis, dedimus et concessimus
monachis de Lorregio elemosinam quam Serlo de Monestolio ipsis in vita
sua donaverat, scilicet partem pratorum Davai, que prefati monachi, in
vita ipsius Serlonis, VII annis et eo amplius possederant, et duos
arpennos post mortem ipsius, et plantas Davai, quas plantare fecerat,
et terram que dicitur Casale Doan et Casale Bernuan, et terram que
Vinea dicitur, et aqua et prata que circa terras illas habebat, et
totum nemus suum quod juxta prefatas terras et silvam Marezoil
possederat; sicut et Gimo de Magduno, in presentia nostra, de prefata
elemosina ipsos investivit assensu nostro, antequam consanguineam
nostram duceret in uxorem. Quod ut perpetue stabilitatis optineat
munimentum, scripto commendari et sigilli nostri auctoritate muniri,
atque nominis nostri charactere corroborari precepimus.
Actum publice apud Nibellam, anno incarnati Verbi millesimo centesimo
quadragesimo primo, regni vero nostri V'to, adstantibus in palatio
nostro quorum nomina subtitulata sunt et signa. Signum Redulfi
Viromandorum comitis, dapifero nostri. Signum Willelmi buticularii.
Signum Mathei camerarii, Signum Mathei constabularii (monogr.)
Data per manum Cadurci cancellarii.
Back in 2003, I posted a reference in which King Philippe Auguste of
France referred to Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, as his cousin
[Reference: M.J. Monicat, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Auguste Roi de
France, 3 (1996): 509-510 (Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, styled "cousin"
by King Philippe Auguste), 530-531]. At the time, I had no idea as to
the identity of Robert, Bishop elect of Puy. After my original post,
Frank Young, of Maryland, kindly posted particulars of Bishop Robert,
indicating that he was Robert de Mehun (died 1219), son of Philippe de
Mehun, seigneur of Mehun-sur-Yevre, and also that Robert had a sister,
Mahaut de Mehun (died 1240), who married Robert de Courtenay (died
1239), seigneur of Champignelles. That solved the question of Bishop
Robert's identity, but not how he was related to King Philippe Auguste.
This past month I located a charter issued by King Philippe Auguste's
father, King Louis VII of France, in which King Louis VII specifically
states that Gimon II de Mehun (great-grandfather of Bishop Robert de
Mehun) married one of King Louis VII's kinswomen ["consanguineam
nostram"] sometime in the period, 1141-1142. A modern transcript of
this charter is found in the book, Études sur les Actes de Louis VII,
by Achille Luchaire (1885): 128, 364. For interest's sake, I've copied
the transcript further below, along with the modern précis prepared by
Professor Luchaire.
For Bishop Robert de Mehun's descent from Gimon II de Mehun, please see
the weblinks below. In the first database cited below, Gimon II de
Mehun is correctly called Gimon, but in the second database, he is
inexpeciably called Simon de Mehun. I might also note that in the
first database below, the mother of Bishop Robert de Mehun is
identified as Marguerite de Graçay, which information unfortunately is
not sourced.
http://www.chez.com/solier/index3.htm
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/dat532.htm#30
As best I can tell, the identity of the wife of Gimon II de Mehun is
unknown. Whoever she was, she was clearly closely related to King
Louis VII of France. One possibility is that Gimon II de Mehun's wife
was a daughter of King Louis VII's older illegitimate sister, Isabelle,
wife of Guillaume de Chaumont. However, if that were the case, one
might expect to see Gimon II de Mehun's wife styled the king's niece,
not his kinswoman. Elsewhere, I note that one online database
indicates that King Louis VII's uncle, Fleury (or Floire) of France,
seigneur of Nagis, born about 1093, living 1118, had an unnamed
daughter who married Milon de Melun. Since the name, Milon de Melun,
is similar in sound to Gimon de Mehun, I can't help but wonder if the
name, Milon de Melun, is not intended for Gimon de Mehun. If so, it
would readily place Gimon de Mehun's wife in the family tree of the
French royal family.
If anyone has definite particulars about the children of Fleury (or
Floire) de France, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the
newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Études sur les Actes de Louis VII, by Achille Luchaire (1885).
pg. 128:
1141, du 1er août, au 18 avril 1142, Nibelle. Apud Nibellam, a. 1141,
r. 3. - Louis VII confirme en faveur de l'abbé Blihard les donations
faites à l'abbaye de Lorroi par Sarlon de Ménetou: une partie des
prés de Davé; les terres dites Chezal-Doan, Chezal-Bernuan, Vigne, le
bois situé près de la forêt Marezoil; toutes possessions dont
l'abbaye avait été investie, en présence du roi et avec son
assentiment, par Gimon de Mehun, avant qu'il se fût allié à la
famille royale. Orig., Bibl. Nat., latin 9217.
pg. 364:
1141-1142, Bibliothèque Nationale, latin 9217 (collection de
chartes), original parchemin; le sceau et l'attache ont disparu.
In nomine sancte et individue Trinitatis. Ego Ludovicus, Dei gracia
rex Francorum et dux Aquitanorum. Notum fieri volumus tam futuris quam
presentibus quod, in manu Blihardi abbatis, dedimus et concessimus
monachis de Lorregio elemosinam quam Serlo de Monestolio ipsis in vita
sua donaverat, scilicet partem pratorum Davai, que prefati monachi, in
vita ipsius Serlonis, VII annis et eo amplius possederant, et duos
arpennos post mortem ipsius, et plantas Davai, quas plantare fecerat,
et terram que dicitur Casale Doan et Casale Bernuan, et terram que
Vinea dicitur, et aqua et prata que circa terras illas habebat, et
totum nemus suum quod juxta prefatas terras et silvam Marezoil
possederat; sicut et Gimo de Magduno, in presentia nostra, de prefata
elemosina ipsos investivit assensu nostro, antequam consanguineam
nostram duceret in uxorem. Quod ut perpetue stabilitatis optineat
munimentum, scripto commendari et sigilli nostri auctoritate muniri,
atque nominis nostri charactere corroborari precepimus.
Actum publice apud Nibellam, anno incarnati Verbi millesimo centesimo
quadragesimo primo, regni vero nostri V'to, adstantibus in palatio
nostro quorum nomina subtitulata sunt et signa. Signum Redulfi
Viromandorum comitis, dapifero nostri. Signum Willelmi buticularii.
Signum Mathei camerarii, Signum Mathei constabularii (monogr.)
Data per manum Cadurci cancellarii.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my post earlier today, I can add that according to
Pere Anselme, King Louis VII's uncle, Philippe of France (born about
1093, living 1123), was Count of Mantes and seigneur of Mehun sur
Yevres [Reference: Anselme, Histoire de la Maison Royale de France 1
(1725): 74]. Philippe married in 1104 to Elizabeth, daughter of Guy
dit Troussel, seigneur of Montlhery. He further states that Philippe
revolted against his half-brother, King Louis VI, about 1123, and was
forced to submit to him. His subsequent history and his issue, if any,
are not covered by Anselme. Elsewhere I find that sometime prior to
1145, Philippe gave "quator arpennos vinearum in clauso Ablonis" to the
Abbey of Vaux-en-Cernay, which gift was confirmed by his nephew, King
Louis VII, in 1145. Philippe is styled "Philippus de Montibus" in
subsequent confirmation letters issued by Thibaut, Biship of Paris, and
Albert de Soisy. See the following weblinks for details regarding
Philippe's gift to Vaux-en-Cernay:
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... t=montibus
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... t=montibus
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... y1/acte29/
I don't think Philippe, Count of Mantes, is thought to have had any
children. But, the passage of his lordship at Mehun sur Yevres to the
family of Gimon de Mehun might be explained if Gimon de Mehun's wife
was near related to Philippe. Count Philippe was full brother to
Fleury (or Floire) of France who I mentioned in my post earlier today.
Philippe and Fleury were both sons of King Philippe I of France, by his
2nd wife, Bertrade de Montfort. They were thus half-brothers of King
Louis VI of France.
I might add that Anselme states that Fleury (or Floire) of France had a
daughter, Elizabeth, lady of Nangis, who married Ansel, seigneur of
Vénizy. He does not include a daughter who married Milon de Melun.
For further evidence regarding the existence of Fleury's daughter,
Elizabeth, who was also known as lady of Vénizy, see
Michel-Jean-Joseph Brial, La troisième and dernière livraison des
monumens des règnes de Philippe Auguste et de Louis VII (Recueil des
Historiens des Gaules et de la France 19) (1880): 584-586, 590-591.
Elizabeth's grandson, Érard I de Brienne, seigneur of Ramerupt and
Vénizy, married Philippe of Champagne, great-great-granddaughter of
King Louis VI of France.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Back in 2003, I posted a reference in which King Philippe Auguste of
< France referred to Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, as his cousin
< [Reference: M.J. Monicat, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Auguste Roi
de
< France, 3 (1996): 509-510 (Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, styled
"cousin"
< by King Philippe Auguste), 530-531]. At the time, I had no idea as
to
< the identity of Robert, Bishop elect of Puy. After my original post,
< Frank Young, of Maryland, kindly posted particulars of Bishop Robert,
< indicating that he was Robert de Mehun (died 1219), son of Philippe
de
< Mehun, seigneur of Mehun-sur-Yevre, and also that Robert had a
sister,
< Mahaut de Mehun (died 1240), who married Robert de Courtenay (died
< 1239), seigneur of Champignelles. That solved the question of Bishop
< Robert's identity, but not how he was related to King Philippe
Auguste.
<
< This past month I located a charter issued by King Philippe Auguste's
< father, King Louis VII of France, in which King Louis VII
specifically
< states that Gimon II de Mehun (great-grandfather of Bishop Robert de
< Mehun) married one of King Louis VII's kinswomen ["consanguineam
< nostram"] sometime in the period, 1141-1142. A modern transcript of
< this charter is found in the book, Études sur les Actes de Louis
VII,
< by Achille Luchaire (1885): 128, 364. For interest's sake, I've
copied
< the transcript further below, along with the modern précis prepared
by
< Professor Luchaire.
<
< For Bishop Robert de Mehun's descent from Gimon II de Mehun, please
see
< the weblinks below. In the first database cited below, Gimon II de
< Mehun is correctly called Gimon, but in the second database, he is
< inexpeciably called Simon de Mehun. I might also note that in the
< first database below, the mother of Bishop Robert de Mehun is
< identified as Marguerite de Graçay, which information unfortunately
is
< not sourced.
<
< http://www.chez.com/solier/index3.htm
<
< http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/dat532.htm#30
<
< As best I can tell, the identity of the wife of Gimon II de Mehun is
< unknown. Whoever she was, she was clearly closely related to King
< Louis VII of France. One possibility is that Gimon II de Mehun's
wife
< was a daughter of King Louis VII's older illegitimate sister,
Isabelle,
< wife of Guillaume de Chaumont. However, if that were the case, one
< might expect to see Gimon II de Mehun's wife styled the king's niece,
< not his kinswoman. Elsewhere, I note that one online database
< indicates that King Louis VII's uncle, Fleury (or Floire) of France,
< seigneur of Nagis, born about 1093, living 1118, had an unnamed
< daughter who married Milon de Melun. Since the name, Milon de Melun,
< is similar in sound to Gimon de Mehun, I can't help but wonder if the
< name, Milon de Melun, is not intended for Gimon de Mehun. If so, it
< would readily place Gimon de Mehun's wife in the family tree of the
< French royal family.
<
< If anyone has definite particulars about the children of Fleury (or
< Floire) de France, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the
< newsgroup.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
<
< + + + + + + + + + +
< Source: Études sur les Actes de Louis VII, by Achille Luchaire
(1885).
<
< pg. 128:
<
< 1141, du 1er août, au 18 avril 1142, Nibelle. Apud Nibellam, a.
1141,
< r. 3. - Louis VII confirme en faveur de l'abbé Blihard les donations
< faites à l'abbaye de Lorroi par Sarlon de Ménetou: une partie des
< prés de Davé; les terres dites Chezal-Doan, Chezal-Bernuan, Vigne,
le
< bois situé près de la forêt Marezoil; toutes possessions dont
< l'abbaye avait été investie, en présence du roi et avec son
< assentiment, par Gimon de Mehun, avant qu'il se fût allié à la
< famille royale. Orig., Bibl. Nat., latin 9217.
<
< pg. 364:
<
< 1141-1142, Bibliothèque Nationale, latin 9217 (collection de
< chartes), original parchemin; le sceau et l'attache ont disparu.
<
< In nomine sancte et individue Trinitatis. Ego Ludovicus, Dei gracia
< rex Francorum et dux Aquitanorum. Notum fieri volumus tam futuris
quam
< presentibus quod, in manu Blihardi abbatis, dedimus et concessimus
< monachis de Lorregio elemosinam quam Serlo de Monestolio ipsis in
vita
< sua donaverat, scilicet partem pratorum Davai, que prefati monachi,
in
< vita ipsius Serlonis, VII annis et eo amplius possederant, et duos
< arpennos post mortem ipsius, et plantas Davai, quas plantare fecerat,
< et terram que dicitur Casale Doan et Casale Bernuan, et terram que
< Vinea dicitur, et aqua et prata que circa terras illas habebat, et
< totum nemus suum quod juxta prefatas terras et silvam Marezoil
< possederat; sicut et Gimo de Magduno, in presentia nostra, de prefata
< elemosina ipsos investivit assensu nostro, antequam consanguineam
< nostram duceret in uxorem. Quod ut perpetue stabilitatis optineat
< munimentum, scripto commendari et sigilli nostri auctoritate muniri,
< atque nominis nostri charactere corroborari precepimus.
<
< Actum publice apud Nibellam, anno incarnati Verbi millesimo centesimo
< quadragesimo primo, regni vero nostri V'to, adstantibus in palatio
< nostro quorum nomina subtitulata sunt et signa. Signum Redulfi
< Viromandorum comitis, dapifero nostri. Signum Willelmi buticularii.
< Signum Mathei camerarii, Signum Mathei constabularii (monogr.)
<
< Data per manum Cadurci cancellarii.
As a followup to my post earlier today, I can add that according to
Pere Anselme, King Louis VII's uncle, Philippe of France (born about
1093, living 1123), was Count of Mantes and seigneur of Mehun sur
Yevres [Reference: Anselme, Histoire de la Maison Royale de France 1
(1725): 74]. Philippe married in 1104 to Elizabeth, daughter of Guy
dit Troussel, seigneur of Montlhery. He further states that Philippe
revolted against his half-brother, King Louis VI, about 1123, and was
forced to submit to him. His subsequent history and his issue, if any,
are not covered by Anselme. Elsewhere I find that sometime prior to
1145, Philippe gave "quator arpennos vinearum in clauso Ablonis" to the
Abbey of Vaux-en-Cernay, which gift was confirmed by his nephew, King
Louis VII, in 1145. Philippe is styled "Philippus de Montibus" in
subsequent confirmation letters issued by Thibaut, Biship of Paris, and
Albert de Soisy. See the following weblinks for details regarding
Philippe's gift to Vaux-en-Cernay:
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... t=montibus
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... t=montibus
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... y1/acte29/
I don't think Philippe, Count of Mantes, is thought to have had any
children. But, the passage of his lordship at Mehun sur Yevres to the
family of Gimon de Mehun might be explained if Gimon de Mehun's wife
was near related to Philippe. Count Philippe was full brother to
Fleury (or Floire) of France who I mentioned in my post earlier today.
Philippe and Fleury were both sons of King Philippe I of France, by his
2nd wife, Bertrade de Montfort. They were thus half-brothers of King
Louis VI of France.
I might add that Anselme states that Fleury (or Floire) of France had a
daughter, Elizabeth, lady of Nangis, who married Ansel, seigneur of
Vénizy. He does not include a daughter who married Milon de Melun.
For further evidence regarding the existence of Fleury's daughter,
Elizabeth, who was also known as lady of Vénizy, see
Michel-Jean-Joseph Brial, La troisième and dernière livraison des
monumens des règnes de Philippe Auguste et de Louis VII (Recueil des
Historiens des Gaules et de la France 19) (1880): 584-586, 590-591.
Elizabeth's grandson, Érard I de Brienne, seigneur of Ramerupt and
Vénizy, married Philippe of Champagne, great-great-granddaughter of
King Louis VI of France.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Back in 2003, I posted a reference in which King Philippe Auguste of
< France referred to Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, as his cousin
< [Reference: M.J. Monicat, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Auguste Roi
de
< France, 3 (1996): 509-510 (Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, styled
"cousin"
< by King Philippe Auguste), 530-531]. At the time, I had no idea as
to
< the identity of Robert, Bishop elect of Puy. After my original post,
< Frank Young, of Maryland, kindly posted particulars of Bishop Robert,
< indicating that he was Robert de Mehun (died 1219), son of Philippe
de
< Mehun, seigneur of Mehun-sur-Yevre, and also that Robert had a
sister,
< Mahaut de Mehun (died 1240), who married Robert de Courtenay (died
< 1239), seigneur of Champignelles. That solved the question of Bishop
< Robert's identity, but not how he was related to King Philippe
Auguste.
<
< This past month I located a charter issued by King Philippe Auguste's
< father, King Louis VII of France, in which King Louis VII
specifically
< states that Gimon II de Mehun (great-grandfather of Bishop Robert de
< Mehun) married one of King Louis VII's kinswomen ["consanguineam
< nostram"] sometime in the period, 1141-1142. A modern transcript of
< this charter is found in the book, Études sur les Actes de Louis
VII,
< by Achille Luchaire (1885): 128, 364. For interest's sake, I've
copied
< the transcript further below, along with the modern précis prepared
by
< Professor Luchaire.
<
< For Bishop Robert de Mehun's descent from Gimon II de Mehun, please
see
< the weblinks below. In the first database cited below, Gimon II de
< Mehun is correctly called Gimon, but in the second database, he is
< inexpeciably called Simon de Mehun. I might also note that in the
< first database below, the mother of Bishop Robert de Mehun is
< identified as Marguerite de Graçay, which information unfortunately
is
< not sourced.
<
< http://www.chez.com/solier/index3.htm
<
< http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/dat532.htm#30
<
< As best I can tell, the identity of the wife of Gimon II de Mehun is
< unknown. Whoever she was, she was clearly closely related to King
< Louis VII of France. One possibility is that Gimon II de Mehun's
wife
< was a daughter of King Louis VII's older illegitimate sister,
Isabelle,
< wife of Guillaume de Chaumont. However, if that were the case, one
< might expect to see Gimon II de Mehun's wife styled the king's niece,
< not his kinswoman. Elsewhere, I note that one online database
< indicates that King Louis VII's uncle, Fleury (or Floire) of France,
< seigneur of Nagis, born about 1093, living 1118, had an unnamed
< daughter who married Milon de Melun. Since the name, Milon de Melun,
< is similar in sound to Gimon de Mehun, I can't help but wonder if the
< name, Milon de Melun, is not intended for Gimon de Mehun. If so, it
< would readily place Gimon de Mehun's wife in the family tree of the
< French royal family.
<
< If anyone has definite particulars about the children of Fleury (or
< Floire) de France, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the
< newsgroup.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
<
< + + + + + + + + + +
< Source: Études sur les Actes de Louis VII, by Achille Luchaire
(1885).
<
< pg. 128:
<
< 1141, du 1er août, au 18 avril 1142, Nibelle. Apud Nibellam, a.
1141,
< r. 3. - Louis VII confirme en faveur de l'abbé Blihard les donations
< faites à l'abbaye de Lorroi par Sarlon de Ménetou: une partie des
< prés de Davé; les terres dites Chezal-Doan, Chezal-Bernuan, Vigne,
le
< bois situé près de la forêt Marezoil; toutes possessions dont
< l'abbaye avait été investie, en présence du roi et avec son
< assentiment, par Gimon de Mehun, avant qu'il se fût allié à la
< famille royale. Orig., Bibl. Nat., latin 9217.
<
< pg. 364:
<
< 1141-1142, Bibliothèque Nationale, latin 9217 (collection de
< chartes), original parchemin; le sceau et l'attache ont disparu.
<
< In nomine sancte et individue Trinitatis. Ego Ludovicus, Dei gracia
< rex Francorum et dux Aquitanorum. Notum fieri volumus tam futuris
quam
< presentibus quod, in manu Blihardi abbatis, dedimus et concessimus
< monachis de Lorregio elemosinam quam Serlo de Monestolio ipsis in
vita
< sua donaverat, scilicet partem pratorum Davai, que prefati monachi,
in
< vita ipsius Serlonis, VII annis et eo amplius possederant, et duos
< arpennos post mortem ipsius, et plantas Davai, quas plantare fecerat,
< et terram que dicitur Casale Doan et Casale Bernuan, et terram que
< Vinea dicitur, et aqua et prata que circa terras illas habebat, et
< totum nemus suum quod juxta prefatas terras et silvam Marezoil
< possederat; sicut et Gimo de Magduno, in presentia nostra, de prefata
< elemosina ipsos investivit assensu nostro, antequam consanguineam
< nostram duceret in uxorem. Quod ut perpetue stabilitatis optineat
< munimentum, scripto commendari et sigilli nostri auctoritate muniri,
< atque nominis nostri charactere corroborari precepimus.
<
< Actum publice apud Nibellam, anno incarnati Verbi millesimo centesimo
< quadragesimo primo, regni vero nostri V'to, adstantibus in palatio
< nostro quorum nomina subtitulata sunt et signa. Signum Redulfi
< Viromandorum comitis, dapifero nostri. Signum Willelmi buticularii.
< Signum Mathei camerarii, Signum Mathei constabularii (monogr.)
<
< Data per manum Cadurci cancellarii.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Dear Newsgroup ~
It appears that Philippe de Montibus, the uncle of King Louis VII, was
known as Sir Philippe de Montes. Montes is evidently a locality;
Montibus being the Latin form of Montes. The charter cited in the
weblink below mentions Sir Philippe de Montes by name, as well as the
locality named Montes.
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... mot=Montes
Philippe de Montes was evidently succeeded in his lands (or at least
some of them) by Albert de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade. In a google
search, I found a reference to an article in print which refers to
"Albert de Montes knight and Bertrade," who I believe are this same
couple. If correct, then Albert de Soisy was also known as Sir Albert
de Montes.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search
My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de Soisy (or de Montes),
was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes.
This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
Philippe. Another daughter of Philippe de Montes may well be Gimon de
Mehun's unidentified wife who is known to have been a near kinswoman of
King Louis VII. Gimon's family held the castle of Mehun-sur-Yevre,
which property was alleged by Pere Anselme to have been held earlier by
Sir Philippe de Montes.
See the following weblink for a charter dated 1166 which names Albert
de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade, and their seven children, Adam,
Philippe, Pierre, Guy, Guillaume, Mathilde, and Adeline. In this
charter, Albert and Bertrade confirm a previous grant of Philippe de
Montes to the Abbey of Vaux-de-Cernay:
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... y1/acte29/
If anyone has additonal details regarding the Montes or Soisy families,
I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup. If the king's
uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes, left issue, this would be an important
addition to our knowledge of the French royal family. Needless to say,
this matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
It appears that Philippe de Montibus, the uncle of King Louis VII, was
known as Sir Philippe de Montes. Montes is evidently a locality;
Montibus being the Latin form of Montes. The charter cited in the
weblink below mentions Sir Philippe de Montes by name, as well as the
locality named Montes.
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... mot=Montes
Philippe de Montes was evidently succeeded in his lands (or at least
some of them) by Albert de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade. In a google
search, I found a reference to an article in print which refers to
"Albert de Montes knight and Bertrade," who I believe are this same
couple. If correct, then Albert de Soisy was also known as Sir Albert
de Montes.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search
My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de Soisy (or de Montes),
was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes.
This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
Philippe. Another daughter of Philippe de Montes may well be Gimon de
Mehun's unidentified wife who is known to have been a near kinswoman of
King Louis VII. Gimon's family held the castle of Mehun-sur-Yevre,
which property was alleged by Pere Anselme to have been held earlier by
Sir Philippe de Montes.
See the following weblink for a charter dated 1166 which names Albert
de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade, and their seven children, Adam,
Philippe, Pierre, Guy, Guillaume, Mathilde, and Adeline. In this
charter, Albert and Bertrade confirm a previous grant of Philippe de
Montes to the Abbey of Vaux-de-Cernay:
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... y1/acte29/
If anyone has additonal details regarding the Montes or Soisy families,
I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup. If the king's
uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes, left issue, this would be an important
addition to our knowledge of the French royal family. Needless to say,
this matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following weblink indicates that Soisy is located 12 kilometers
from Paris. It further states that the last of the line of the
seigneurs of Soisy was killed in 1703.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soisy-sous-Montmorency
I assume this is the home of Albert de Soisy.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
The following weblink indicates that Soisy is located 12 kilometers
from Paris. It further states that the last of the line of the
seigneurs of Soisy was killed in 1703.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soisy-sous-Montmorency
I assume this is the home of Albert de Soisy.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Douglas Richardson: "My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de
Soisy (or de Montes),
was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes.
This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
Philippe."
Also note that Philippe's mother was Bertrade de Montfort, and if the
wife of Albert de Soisy was a daughter of Philippe's, it's likely she
would've been named after her grandmother.
Soisy (or de Montes),
was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes.
This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
Philippe."
Also note that Philippe's mother was Bertrade de Montfort, and if the
wife of Albert de Soisy was a daughter of Philippe's, it's likely she
would've been named after her grandmother.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Dear "Miss" ~
Yes, you're entirely correct. Philippe de Montes' mother was Bertrade
de Montfort. So, yes, if Bertrade, wife of Albert de Soisy, was
Philippe's daughter, she would have been named for her grandmother.
As far as I can tell, Philippe de Montes was permanently out of favor
after his uprising against his half-brother, King Louis VI, about 1110.
He and his full brother, Fleury (or Floire), are mentioned in passing
in various records as the children of King Philippe, by Bertrade de
Montfort. But their history after 1110, their respective land
holdings, even their exact death dates seem to be unknown.
Fleury is thought to have married the heiress of Nangis, by which
marriage this property descended to his daughter, Elizabeth. But, even
that appears to be a guess. Fleury definitely had a daughter,
Elizabeth, who was lady of Vénizy, as she is named in a later record
as grandmother of Érard I de Brienne.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Mississippienne@gmail.com wrote:
< Douglas Richardson: "My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de
< Soisy (or de Montes),
< was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de
Montes.
< This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
< Philippe."
<
< Also note that Philippe's mother was Bertrade de Montfort, and if the
< wife of Albert de Soisy was a daughter of Philippe's, it's likely she
< would've been named after her grandmother.
Yes, you're entirely correct. Philippe de Montes' mother was Bertrade
de Montfort. So, yes, if Bertrade, wife of Albert de Soisy, was
Philippe's daughter, she would have been named for her grandmother.
As far as I can tell, Philippe de Montes was permanently out of favor
after his uprising against his half-brother, King Louis VI, about 1110.
He and his full brother, Fleury (or Floire), are mentioned in passing
in various records as the children of King Philippe, by Bertrade de
Montfort. But their history after 1110, their respective land
holdings, even their exact death dates seem to be unknown.
Fleury is thought to have married the heiress of Nangis, by which
marriage this property descended to his daughter, Elizabeth. But, even
that appears to be a guess. Fleury definitely had a daughter,
Elizabeth, who was lady of Vénizy, as she is named in a later record
as grandmother of Érard I de Brienne.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Mississippienne@gmail.com wrote:
< Douglas Richardson: "My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de
< Soisy (or de Montes),
< was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de
Montes.
< This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
< Philippe."
<
< Also note that Philippe's mother was Bertrade de Montfort, and if the
< wife of Albert de Soisy was a daughter of Philippe's, it's likely she
< would've been named after her grandmother.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
I am wonderring whether Richardson is, again, on the thin ice of wishful
thinking:
"It appears (not certain) that Philippe de Montibus, the uncle (was he?) of
King Louis VII, was known as Sir Philippe de Montes." I thought 'Sir' was
an English title, never mind.
King Louis VII did have a half-uncle Philippe, Comte de Mantes (not Montibus
or Montes), Seigneur de Mehun-sur-Yevres, born about 1093 died after 1123,
married 1104 Elisabeth de Monthlery, heiress of Monthlery. He was about 11
when he married.
ES Volume II Tafel 11 does not give any indication that there were any
children from this marriage. Tafels 10 to 37 are given an enormous list of
sources.
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven ES volume II tafel 14, also calls Philippe
Count of Mantes, not Montes or Montibus, and no children. In this
publication Tafels 13 to 22 there are two sources given.
Thierry Le Hete 'La Dynastie Capetienne' page 15 gives Philippe Comte de
Mantes, married and no children. This work gives an extensive list of
sources.
As if one new daughter is not enough, Richardson believes in a second.
Fleury the brother of Philippe has two daughters, one whose name is not
known married Milon de Melun.
Could Gimon be a misspelling of Milon?
If any child, with the same name of a king, has to be related to the king
then we are in a mess.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
thinking:
"It appears (not certain) that Philippe de Montibus, the uncle (was he?) of
King Louis VII, was known as Sir Philippe de Montes." I thought 'Sir' was
an English title, never mind.
King Louis VII did have a half-uncle Philippe, Comte de Mantes (not Montibus
or Montes), Seigneur de Mehun-sur-Yevres, born about 1093 died after 1123,
married 1104 Elisabeth de Monthlery, heiress of Monthlery. He was about 11
when he married.
ES Volume II Tafel 11 does not give any indication that there were any
children from this marriage. Tafels 10 to 37 are given an enormous list of
sources.
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven ES volume II tafel 14, also calls Philippe
Count of Mantes, not Montes or Montibus, and no children. In this
publication Tafels 13 to 22 there are two sources given.
Thierry Le Hete 'La Dynastie Capetienne' page 15 gives Philippe Comte de
Mantes, married and no children. This work gives an extensive list of
sources.
As if one new daughter is not enough, Richardson believes in a second.
Fleury the brother of Philippe has two daughters, one whose name is not
known married Milon de Melun.
Could Gimon be a misspelling of Milon?
If any child, with the same name of a king, has to be related to the king
then we are in a mess.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
Dear Newsgroup ~
It appears that Philippe de Montibus, the uncle of King Louis VII, was
known as Sir Philippe de Montes. Montes is evidently a locality;
Montibus being the Latin form of Montes. The charter cited in the
weblink below mentions Sir Philippe de Montes by name, as well as the
locality named Montes.
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... mot=Montes
Philippe de Montes was evidently succeeded in his lands (or at least
some of them) by Albert de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade. In a google
search, I found a reference to an article in print which refers to
"Albert de Montes knight and Bertrade," who I believe are this same
couple. If correct, then Albert de Soisy was also known as Sir Albert
de Montes.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search
My guess is that Bertrade, wife of Sir Albert de Soisy (or de Montes),
was a daughter and heiress of the king's uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes.
This is supported by the fact that Albert and Bertrade named a son,
Philippe. Another daughter of Philippe de Montes may well be Gimon de
Mehun's unidentified wife who is known to have been a near kinswoman of
King Louis VII. Gimon's family held the castle of Mehun-sur-Yevre,
which property was alleged by Pere Anselme to have been held earlier by
Sir Philippe de Montes.
See the following weblink for a charter dated 1166 which names Albert
de Soisy and his wife, Bertrade, and their seven children, Adam,
Philippe, Pierre, Guy, Guillaume, Mathilde, and Adeline. In this
charter, Albert and Bertrade confirm a previous grant of Philippe de
Montes to the Abbey of Vaux-de-Cernay:
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires ... y1/acte29/
If anyone has additonal details regarding the Montes or Soisy families,
I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup. If the king's
uncle, Sir Philippe de Montes, left issue, this would be an important
addition to our knowledge of the French royal family. Needless to say,
this matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Dear Newsgroup ~
The information below concerns King Louis VI of France's half-brothers,
Philippe and Fleury (or Floire). It explains the events which followed
the death of their father, King Philippe I, in 1108.
The writer below expresses his doubts that Fleury had a daughter,
Elizabeth. However, I find that Elizabeth is in fact attested in the
records of this time period. As for Philippe, the writer states he has
taken his information on him from a contemporary source, Suger.
Philippe was made seigneur of Mantes (not count) on his marriage to
Elizabeth de Montlhéry in 1104. Philippe was besieged in 1109 at
Mantes by his half-brother, King Louis VI, following Philippe's
rebellion. The subsequent history of Philippe is not stated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.corpusetampois.com/che-17-fleureau-b23.html
Philippe et Fleury. Fleureau ici aussi force le trait, d'une manière
assez peu sympathique à un esprit moderne, et qui frappe surtout son
côté archaïque et simpliste. On n'a guère de données il est vrai
sur Fleury, qui s'appelait plutôt d'ailleurs Floire, en latin
Florus. On lit çà et là qu'il fut fut seigneur de Nangis et père
d'Élisabeth (Isabelle) de Nangis (née vers 1118 et mariée vers
1136 à Anseau de Vénisy) et donc grand-père d'Adelais de Vénisy,
etc.; mais je ne sais pas pour l'heure s'il s'agit d'un fait
avéré ou de l'hypothèse gratuite d'un généalogiste, comme dans
le cas de sa prétendue sœur Eustache (Voyez infra). Nous sommes mieux
renseigné sur Philippe de Mantes, notamment par Suger. Son père le
maria en 1104 à Élisabeth de Montlhéry, fille de Guy Trousseau et
petite-fille de Milon de Montlhéry; il fut fait à cette occasion,
avec l'accord du futur Louis VI, seigneur de Mantes autant que de
Montlhéry. A la mort de Philippe Ier, sur le conseil d'Yves de
Chartres, on précipita le sacre de Louis VI pour parer aux prétendues
velléites d'une caballe qui aurait voulu mettre son demi-frère sur
le trône; dès l'année suivante, Louis assiègea Philippe dans
Mantes, qu'il lui retira, avant d'aller prendre Montlhéry, qui
était tenue par un affidé de Bertrade, Hugues de Crécy. Ce n'est
donc pas tant Dieu que Louis VI lui-même qui paraît avoir pris soin
d'éliminer son beau-frère, au moins politiquement parlant.
The information below concerns King Louis VI of France's half-brothers,
Philippe and Fleury (or Floire). It explains the events which followed
the death of their father, King Philippe I, in 1108.
The writer below expresses his doubts that Fleury had a daughter,
Elizabeth. However, I find that Elizabeth is in fact attested in the
records of this time period. As for Philippe, the writer states he has
taken his information on him from a contemporary source, Suger.
Philippe was made seigneur of Mantes (not count) on his marriage to
Elizabeth de Montlhéry in 1104. Philippe was besieged in 1109 at
Mantes by his half-brother, King Louis VI, following Philippe's
rebellion. The subsequent history of Philippe is not stated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.corpusetampois.com/che-17-fleureau-b23.html
Philippe et Fleury. Fleureau ici aussi force le trait, d'une manière
assez peu sympathique à un esprit moderne, et qui frappe surtout son
côté archaïque et simpliste. On n'a guère de données il est vrai
sur Fleury, qui s'appelait plutôt d'ailleurs Floire, en latin
Florus. On lit çà et là qu'il fut fut seigneur de Nangis et père
d'Élisabeth (Isabelle) de Nangis (née vers 1118 et mariée vers
1136 à Anseau de Vénisy) et donc grand-père d'Adelais de Vénisy,
etc.; mais je ne sais pas pour l'heure s'il s'agit d'un fait
avéré ou de l'hypothèse gratuite d'un généalogiste, comme dans
le cas de sa prétendue sœur Eustache (Voyez infra). Nous sommes mieux
renseigné sur Philippe de Mantes, notamment par Suger. Son père le
maria en 1104 à Élisabeth de Montlhéry, fille de Guy Trousseau et
petite-fille de Milon de Montlhéry; il fut fait à cette occasion,
avec l'accord du futur Louis VI, seigneur de Mantes autant que de
Montlhéry. A la mort de Philippe Ier, sur le conseil d'Yves de
Chartres, on précipita le sacre de Louis VI pour parer aux prétendues
velléites d'une caballe qui aurait voulu mettre son demi-frère sur
le trône; dès l'année suivante, Louis assiègea Philippe dans
Mantes, qu'il lui retira, avant d'aller prendre Montlhéry, qui
était tenue par un affidé de Bertrade, Hugues de Crécy. Ce n'est
donc pas tant Dieu que Louis VI lui-même qui paraît avoir pris soin
d'éliminer son beau-frère, au moins politiquement parlant.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Thierry Le Hete = Philippe Comte de Mantes
ES = Philippe Comte de Mantes
Isenburg = Comte de Mantes
Go to the Internet and type in Comte de Mantes and Philippe appears
several times, try
http://gilles.maillet.free.fr/histoire_ ... etiens.htm for one
What happened to Montes and Montibus?
As always with best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
ES = Philippe Comte de Mantes
Isenburg = Comte de Mantes
Go to the Internet and type in Comte de Mantes and Philippe appears
several times, try
http://gilles.maillet.free.fr/histoire_ ... etiens.htm for one
What happened to Montes and Montibus?
As always with best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
Dear Newsgroup ~
The information below concerns King Louis VI of France's half-brothers,
Philippe and Fleury (or Floire). It explains the events which followed
the death of their father, King Philippe I, in 1108.
The writer below expresses his doubts that Fleury had a daughter,
Elizabeth. However, I find that Elizabeth is in fact attested in the
records of this time period. As for Philippe, the writer states he has
taken his information on him from a contemporary source, Suger.
Philippe was made seigneur of Mantes (not count) on his marriage to
Elizabeth de Montlhéry in 1104. Philippe was besieged in 1109 at
Mantes by his half-brother, King Louis VI, following Philippe's
rebellion. The subsequent history of Philippe is not stated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.corpusetampois.com/che-17-fleureau-b23.html
Philippe et Fleury. Fleureau ici aussi force le trait, d'une manière
assez peu sympathique à un esprit moderne, et qui frappe surtout son
côté archaïque et simpliste. On n'a guère de données il est vrai
sur Fleury, qui s'appelait plutôt d'ailleurs Floire, en latin
Florus. On lit çà et là qu'il fut fut seigneur de Nangis et père
d'Élisabeth (Isabelle) de Nangis (née vers 1118 et mariée vers
1136 à Anseau de Vénisy) et donc grand-père d'Adelais de Vénisy,
etc.; mais je ne sais pas pour l'heure s'il s'agit d'un fait
avéré ou de l'hypothèse gratuite d'un généalogiste, comme dans
le cas de sa prétendue sour Eustache (Voyez infra). Nous sommes mieux
renseigné sur Philippe de Mantes, notamment par Suger. Son père le
maria en 1104 à Élisabeth de Montlhéry, fille de Guy Trousseau et
petite-fille de Milon de Montlhéry; il fut fait à cette occasion,
avec l'accord du futur Louis VI, seigneur de Mantes autant que de
Montlhéry. A la mort de Philippe Ier, sur le conseil d'Yves de
Chartres, on précipita le sacre de Louis VI pour parer aux prétendues
velléites d'une caballe qui aurait voulu mettre son demi-frère sur
le trône; dès l'année suivante, Louis assiègea Philippe dans
Mantes, qu'il lui retira, avant d'aller prendre Montlhéry, qui
était tenue par un affidé de Bertrade, Hugues de Crécy. Ce n'est
donc pas tant Dieu que Louis VI lui-même qui paraît avoir pris soin
d'éliminer son beau-frère, au moins politiquement parlant.
-
CED
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
Douglas Richardson wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
I've been away for a while (errands with lucre in mind); but an
electronic missive brought me back to one of the realities of this
world (i. e. Richardson and the Newsgroup). Before my being
distracted, it was apparent that Richardson's useless WIRTWL's were
becoming trite, if not trivial, and unworthy of further comment. Even
so, this missive, with its reference to the WIRTWL madness, would not
have broken my concentration on other matters but for its indication
that Richardson was again fiddling in continental genealogy, attempting
Latin and French.
This brought to mind a question, not heretofor asked or answered in the
Archives: what was the non-English language used to qualify Richardson
for his alleged admission to a masters' program ? His Greek, which
became rusty? His Finnish which he recommended to Peter Stewart for
research on the descendants of Charlemagne? His Latin with which he is
unable to translate "nostra munificentia" in one of his myriad
WIRTWL's ? His Italian with which he created such a muddle? His German
which caused more than a smile among us? His French (would that the
internet let us hear his attempts at its pronunciation)? Have I
exhausted his language claims?
Upon reading the thread that Richardson began on 24 April 2006,
entitled "King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy (sic)," I was surprised that he was no longer
attempting to give Alice of Burgundy a second husband and children
while she was resident at Fontevrault. True to the Richardson form, he
did not admit his failure in his quest to make her the grandmother of
Robert of Mehun, bishop of Le Puy.
The weakness of Richardson's most recent tack can be seen in the
Archives; however, in this instance, I quote from two messages recently
posted. The first by me, suggesting a line of enquiry; the second by
Richardson in which he gave my suggestion short shrift.
First Message (by CED)
Tues, Mar 21 2006 3:19 pm
"Since the subject in question is whether Philip II, king of France,
had
a consanguineous relationship with Robert of Mehun, bishop of Puy, a
more profitable approach than that which Richardson now appears to be
taking could be as follows: since -
"(1) any such relationship between the King and the Bishop would also
that between the Bishop's sister and the king, and
"(2) the sister's husband was a cousin of the king,
there is a possibility that both Robert of Courtenay, lord of
Champignelles and of Châteaurenard, and the King shared the
consanguineous relationship with the Bishop's sister, Matilda (Mahaut)
of Mehun. If that were the case, the marriage of Robert of Courtenay
and Matilda of Mehun could have required a dispensation. (They were
married about 1215, the year of the Fourth Lateran Council at which the
enforcement of the ban of marriages within the prohibited degree was
altered.) If the prohibition within the 7th degree was still in
effect, then such a dispensation would almost certainly have been
required."
Second Message (by Richardson)
Tues, Mar 21 2006 4:28 pm
"It's extremely doubtful that Mahaut de Mehun, wife of Robert de
Courtenay, was descended from the French royal family. Most of the
descendants of the French royal family have been worked out long ago.
Rather, the most likely connection is through the Blois family, which
is ancestral to both the French king and to the Dukes of Burgundy. A
Blois connection in Mahaut de Mehun's ancestry would explain both her
brother, Bishop Robert de Mehun's near kinship to King Philippe
Auguste, and also her son, Guillaume de Courtenay's near kinship to
Eudes of Burgundy, Count of Nevers."
Now that Richardson is pursuing a new line of enquiry, the question of
a dispensation recurs; and I repeat my suggestion that Richardson
search out the necessary dispensation. If a dispensation was necessary,
that would explain the "near kinship." If a dispensation was not
necessary, whatever the relationship, it was not a "near kinship."
I would suggest further that Richardson, when he casts about for
possible relationships, as a research method, count the possible and
likely degrees of consanguineity and determine the need for
dispensations. With his recently achieved facility in working with
French genealogy, he might find a repository for the records of such
dispensations. (Although his recently display of his ignorance - also
true to Richardson form - about Clement VII reinforces doubts about the
progress of his work in that area.)
CED
To the Newsgroup:
I've been away for a while (errands with lucre in mind); but an
electronic missive brought me back to one of the realities of this
world (i. e. Richardson and the Newsgroup). Before my being
distracted, it was apparent that Richardson's useless WIRTWL's were
becoming trite, if not trivial, and unworthy of further comment. Even
so, this missive, with its reference to the WIRTWL madness, would not
have broken my concentration on other matters but for its indication
that Richardson was again fiddling in continental genealogy, attempting
Latin and French.
This brought to mind a question, not heretofor asked or answered in the
Archives: what was the non-English language used to qualify Richardson
for his alleged admission to a masters' program ? His Greek, which
became rusty? His Finnish which he recommended to Peter Stewart for
research on the descendants of Charlemagne? His Latin with which he is
unable to translate "nostra munificentia" in one of his myriad
WIRTWL's ? His Italian with which he created such a muddle? His German
which caused more than a smile among us? His French (would that the
internet let us hear his attempts at its pronunciation)? Have I
exhausted his language claims?
Upon reading the thread that Richardson began on 24 April 2006,
entitled "King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy (sic)," I was surprised that he was no longer
attempting to give Alice of Burgundy a second husband and children
while she was resident at Fontevrault. True to the Richardson form, he
did not admit his failure in his quest to make her the grandmother of
Robert of Mehun, bishop of Le Puy.
The weakness of Richardson's most recent tack can be seen in the
Archives; however, in this instance, I quote from two messages recently
posted. The first by me, suggesting a line of enquiry; the second by
Richardson in which he gave my suggestion short shrift.
First Message (by CED)
Tues, Mar 21 2006 3:19 pm
"Since the subject in question is whether Philip II, king of France,
had
a consanguineous relationship with Robert of Mehun, bishop of Puy, a
more profitable approach than that which Richardson now appears to be
taking could be as follows: since -
"(1) any such relationship between the King and the Bishop would also
that between the Bishop's sister and the king, and
"(2) the sister's husband was a cousin of the king,
there is a possibility that both Robert of Courtenay, lord of
Champignelles and of Châteaurenard, and the King shared the
consanguineous relationship with the Bishop's sister, Matilda (Mahaut)
of Mehun. If that were the case, the marriage of Robert of Courtenay
and Matilda of Mehun could have required a dispensation. (They were
married about 1215, the year of the Fourth Lateran Council at which the
enforcement of the ban of marriages within the prohibited degree was
altered.) If the prohibition within the 7th degree was still in
effect, then such a dispensation would almost certainly have been
required."
Second Message (by Richardson)
Tues, Mar 21 2006 4:28 pm
"It's extremely doubtful that Mahaut de Mehun, wife of Robert de
Courtenay, was descended from the French royal family. Most of the
descendants of the French royal family have been worked out long ago.
Rather, the most likely connection is through the Blois family, which
is ancestral to both the French king and to the Dukes of Burgundy. A
Blois connection in Mahaut de Mehun's ancestry would explain both her
brother, Bishop Robert de Mehun's near kinship to King Philippe
Auguste, and also her son, Guillaume de Courtenay's near kinship to
Eudes of Burgundy, Count of Nevers."
Now that Richardson is pursuing a new line of enquiry, the question of
a dispensation recurs; and I repeat my suggestion that Richardson
search out the necessary dispensation. If a dispensation was necessary,
that would explain the "near kinship." If a dispensation was not
necessary, whatever the relationship, it was not a "near kinship."
I would suggest further that Richardson, when he casts about for
possible relationships, as a research method, count the possible and
likely degrees of consanguineity and determine the need for
dispensations. With his recently achieved facility in working with
French genealogy, he might find a repository for the records of such
dispensations. (Although his recently display of his ignorance - also
true to Richardson form - about Clement VII reinforces doubts about the
progress of his work in that area.)
CED
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2003, I posted a reference in which King Philippe Auguste of
France referred to Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, as his cousin
[Reference: M.J. Monicat, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Auguste Roi de
France, 3 (1996): 509-510 (Robert, Bishop elect of Puy, styled "cousin"
by King Philippe Auguste), 530-531]. At the time, I had no idea as to
the identity of Robert, Bishop elect of Puy. After my original post,
Frank Young, of Maryland, kindly posted particulars of Bishop Robert,
indicating that he was Robert de Mehun (died 1219), son of Philippe de
Mehun, seigneur of Mehun-sur-Yevre, and also that Robert had a sister,
Mahaut de Mehun (died 1240), who married Robert de Courtenay (died
1239), seigneur of Champignelles. That solved the question of Bishop
Robert's identity, but not how he was related to King Philippe Auguste.
This past month I located a charter issued by King Philippe Auguste's
father, King Louis VII of France, in which King Louis VII specifically
states that Gimon II de Mehun (great-grandfather of Bishop Robert de
Mehun) married one of King Louis VII's kinswomen ["consanguineam
nostram"] sometime in the period, 1141-1142. A modern transcript of
this charter is found in the book, Études sur les Actes de Louis VII,
by Achille Luchaire (1885): 128, 364. For interest's sake, I've copied
the transcript further below, along with the modern précis prepared by
Professor Luchaire.
For Bishop Robert de Mehun's descent from Gimon II de Mehun, please see
the weblinks below. In the first database cited below, Gimon II de
Mehun is correctly called Gimon, but in the second database, he is
inexpeciably called Simon de Mehun. I might also note that in the
first database below, the mother of Bishop Robert de Mehun is
identified as Marguerite de Graçay, which information unfortunately is
not sourced.
http://www.chez.com/solier/index3.htm
http://a.decarne.free.fr/gencar/dat532.htm#30
As best I can tell, the identity of the wife of Gimon II de Mehun is
unknown. Whoever she was, she was clearly closely related to King
Louis VII of France. One possibility is that Gimon II de Mehun's wife
was a daughter of King Louis VII's older illegitimate sister, Isabelle,
wife of Guillaume de Chaumont. However, if that were the case, one
might expect to see Gimon II de Mehun's wife styled the king's niece,
not his kinswoman. Elsewhere, I note that one online database
indicates that King Louis VII's uncle, Fleury (or Floire) of France,
seigneur of Nagis, born about 1093, living 1118, had an unnamed
daughter who married Milon de Melun. Since the name, Milon de Melun,
is similar in sound to Gimon de Mehun, I can't help but wonder if the
name, Milon de Melun, is not intended for Gimon de Mehun. If so, it
would readily place Gimon de Mehun's wife in the family tree of the
French royal family.
If anyone has definite particulars about the children of Fleury (or
Floire) de France, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on the
newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Études sur les Actes de Louis VII, by Achille Luchaire (1885).
pg. 128:
1141, du 1er août, au 18 avril 1142, Nibelle. Apud Nibellam, a. 1141,
r. 3. - Louis VII confirme en faveur de l'abbé Blihard les donations
faites à l'abbaye de Lorroi par Sarlon de Ménetou: une partie des
prés de Davé; les terres dites Chezal-Doan, Chezal-Bernuan, Vigne, le
bois situé près de la forêt Marezoil; toutes possessions dont
l'abbaye avait été investie, en présence du roi et avec son
assentiment, par Gimon de Mehun, avant qu'il se fût allié à la
famille royale. Orig., Bibl. Nat., latin 9217.
pg. 364:
1141-1142, Bibliothèque Nationale, latin 9217 (collection de
chartes), original parchemin; le sceau et l'attache ont disparu.
In nomine sancte et individue Trinitatis. Ego Ludovicus, Dei gracia
rex Francorum et dux Aquitanorum. Notum fieri volumus tam futuris quam
presentibus quod, in manu Blihardi abbatis, dedimus et concessimus
monachis de Lorregio elemosinam quam Serlo de Monestolio ipsis in vita
sua donaverat, scilicet partem pratorum Davai, que prefati monachi, in
vita ipsius Serlonis, VII annis et eo amplius possederant, et duos
arpennos post mortem ipsius, et plantas Davai, quas plantare fecerat,
et terram que dicitur Casale Doan et Casale Bernuan, et terram que
Vinea dicitur, et aqua et prata que circa terras illas habebat, et
totum nemus suum quod juxta prefatas terras et silvam Marezoil
possederat; sicut et Gimo de Magduno, in presentia nostra, de prefata
elemosina ipsos investivit assensu nostro, antequam consanguineam
nostram duceret in uxorem. Quod ut perpetue stabilitatis optineat
munimentum, scripto commendari et sigilli nostri auctoritate muniri,
atque nominis nostri charactere corroborari precepimus.
Actum publice apud Nibellam, anno incarnati Verbi millesimo centesimo
quadragesimo primo, regni vero nostri V'to, adstantibus in palatio
nostro quorum nomina subtitulata sunt et signa. Signum Redulfi
Viromandorum comitis, dapifero nostri. Signum Willelmi buticularii.
Signum Mathei camerarii, Signum Mathei constabularii (monogr.)
Data per manum Cadurci cancellarii.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert
It has been pointed out to me that all Thierry Le Hete, ES, Isenburg and the
Internet are wrong and Richardson is correct maintaining Philippe de France
never made it to be a Comte, he was only a Seigneur. I have amended my own
data base and the correction will show up with the next update.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
Internet are wrong and Richardson is correct maintaining Philippe de France
never made it to be a Comte, he was only a Seigneur. I have amended my own
data base and the correction will show up with the next update.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
Thierry Le Hete = Philippe Comte de Mantes
ES = Philippe Comte de Mantes
Isenburg = Comte de Mantes
Go to the Internet and type in Comte de Mantes and Philippe
appears several times, try
http://gilles.maillet.free.fr/histoire_ ... etiens.htm for one
What happened to Montes and Montibus?
As always with best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Philippe Auguste's kinsman, Robert de
Mehun, Bishop of Puy
Dear Newsgroup ~
The information below concerns King Louis VI of France's half-brothers,
Philippe and Fleury (or Floire). It explains the events which followed
the death of their father, King Philippe I, in 1108.
The writer below expresses his doubts that Fleury had a daughter,
Elizabeth. However, I find that Elizabeth is in fact attested in the
records of this time period. As for Philippe, the writer states he has
taken his information on him from a contemporary source, Suger.
Philippe was made seigneur of Mantes (not count) on his marriage to
Elizabeth de Montlhéry in 1104. Philippe was besieged in 1109 at
Mantes by his half-brother, King Louis VI, following Philippe's
rebellion. The subsequent history of Philippe is not stated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.corpusetampois.com/che-17-fleureau-b23.html
Philippe et Fleury. Fleureau ici aussi force le trait, d'une manière
assez peu sympathique à un esprit moderne, et qui frappe surtout son
côté archaïque et simpliste. On n'a guère de données il est vrai
sur Fleury, qui s'appelait plutôt d'ailleurs Floire, en latin
Florus. On lit çà et là qu'il fut fut seigneur de Nangis et père
d'Élisabeth (Isabelle) de Nangis (née vers 1118 et mariée vers
1136 à Anseau de Vénisy) et donc grand-père d'Adelais de Vénisy,
etc.; mais je ne sais pas pour l'heure s'il s'agit d'un fait
avéré ou de l'hypothèse gratuite d'un généalogiste, comme dans
le cas de sa prétendue sour Eustache (Voyez infra). Nous sommes mieux
renseigné sur Philippe de Mantes, notamment par Suger. Son père le
maria en 1104 à Élisabeth de Montlhéry, fille de Guy Trousseau et
petite-fille de Milon de Montlhéry; il fut fait à cette occasion,
avec l'accord du futur Louis VI, seigneur de Mantes autant que de
Montlhéry. A la mort de Philippe Ier, sur le conseil d'Yves de
Chartres, on précipita le sacre de Louis VI pour parer aux prétendues
velléites d'une caballe qui aurait voulu mettre son demi-frère sur
le trône; dès l'année suivante, Louis assiègea Philippe dans
Mantes, qu'il lui retira, avant d'aller prendre Montlhéry, qui
était tenue par un affidé de Bertrade, Hugues de Crécy. Ce n'est
donc pas tant Dieu que Louis VI lui-même qui paraît avoir pris soin
d'éliminer son beau-frère, au moins politiquement parlant.