Susanne Christine Schnell - An almost gateway ancestor?

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Susanne Christine Schnell - An almost gateway ancestor?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 apr 2006 12:06:24

Previous advertence:
This post is a sequence of "OT Rev. Samuel George Klug, Culpeper Co.,
Virginia".
Most of the data was found on line, the first part in LDS. I am posting
as I found it and leave all necessary corroboration to anybody
eventually interested.

When Matthias Gessler, alias Mathias Castler, arrived in Virginia he
was already married and had 3 children: Matthias Friedrich, b.
21.6.1713 in Stuttgart, Margaretha, b. poss. 1715, died 23.1.175, Anna
Magdalena, b. 5.3.1716 in Stuttgart. Already in Culpeper, in 1719, he
had another daughter, Susanna.
I did not found anything on the first (for all I know he might have
never arrived to Virginia) but Susanna marr. 1740 Rev. Samuel George
Klug and Anna Magdalena married about 1753 Conrad Delph and both left a
vast descent.

The data is from 4 different PRFs and 1 AF. As they are not all equal
in both data and spelling I think they did not copied each other. Also
the given dates made me believe that the Stuttgart films were
consulted. For Susanna, there are other entries in IGI-America but
anonymous (they could led to AFs what I did not checked) and quite
similar.
In all of them, Mathias Castler's wife and mother of the children, is
Susanne Christine Schnell.

In LDS there are 14 entries for Susanne's birth, 8.8.1688 in
Stuttgart (3 say 8.5.1688) and 9 of them mention the marriage with
Mathias Castler in 17.2.1711 in Stuttgart. One is from a Batch with
several entries for the family of Susanne's mother and all the
closest related families; there are entries for, Susanne, a brother and
a sister but Susanne's father is not indexed what shows that whoever
sent the data was only interested in her mother's family.
There is also an entry extracted from the church book for Susanna's
birth, dau. of Johann Mich. Schnell & Susanna. In all the other
entries, Susanne's mother is Anne Susanne Pistorius. Possibly a
careless reader omitted the "Anne" and could not read the
"Pistorius" (another plausible explanation exists). Quite common in
LDS extracts in my experience.

So we have Susanne Christinne Schnell, b. 8.8.1688 dau. of Johann (or
Hans) Michael Schnell & Anne Susanne Pistorius. This last one, b. 1655
Stuttgart, m. 7.6.1681 Cannstatt, d. 13.10.1696, dau. of Johann
Pistorius, b. ca. 1625 Stuttgart, d. 11.2.1670, m. 25.6.1650 Regine
Varnbühler, b. 26.1.1627 Markgröning, dau. of Johann Bernhard
Varnbühler & Justine Heller.

This post beeing already too long I will continue with
Joh.Bernh.Varnbühler in another one.

Regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)

Gjest

Re: Susanne Christine Schnell - An almost gateway ancestor?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 apr 2006 12:44:35

Johann Bernhard Varnbühler, b. 15.1.1594 in Stuttgart, d. ?.10.1635,
m. 4.11.1616 Justine Heller, b. 8.4.1595 in Hirsau, d. aft. 1655, dau.
of Johann Christof Heller & Anna Maria Engelhardt.

Ahnentafel:
1. Johann Bernhard Varnbühler
2. Ulrich Varnbühler
3. Agnes Königsbach
4. Nicolaus Varnbühler
5. Regina Walther
6. (Johann) Jakob Königsbach
7. Agnes Fürderer von Richtenfels
8. Johannes Varnbühler
9. Agathe Meuting
10. Bernhard Walther
11. Felizitas Rehlinger
12. Johann Königsbach
13. Anna Stocker
14. Jakob Fürderer von Richtenfels
15. Elisabeth Keller
16. Ulrich Varnbühler
17. Agnes Bölin (Beli von Montfort)
18. Ludwig Meuting
19. Anna Regine Eresinger
20. Ulrich Walther
21. Regina von Stetten
22. Ulrich "d.Ä" Rehlinger
23. Ursula Gossembrot
24. Johann "d.Ä" Königsbach
25. Margarethe Wirtemberg(er)
26. Johannes Stocker
27. Barbara Herbst
28. Burkhardt Fürderer von Richtenfels
29. Margarethe Walther, alias Kühorn
30. Gregorius Keller
31. Anna Steck.

The "gelehrtenfamilie"
Quoting Oliver, a friend of Leo van de Pas, means the "well
educated" for example families of parsons/ministers.
"Gelehrtenfamilien" do not belong to nobility, but formed an elite
in protestant Württemberg in the 16th century. [end of quote]
I was aware of the concept - not the word - as it covers my
"württembergischen" ancestry.
Parsons, judges, public servants and teachers they constituted a social
class with some similarities with nobility (lato sensu). They
intermarried, their children were sent to university, mainly Tübingen,
and in due time got their own jobs, often in other then their native
towns.
It is somehow rare to find a line to these families as they did not
emmigrate but once one is found, the genealogical possibilities are
vast. Other then published histories of families - for my ancestry I
had "Geschichte der Moser von Filseck", "The württembergischen
Familie Palm", "Andlerbuch" and "Geschichte der Familie
Fulda" there are many books who cover them quite extensively. Amongst
others:
- "Genealogisches Handbuch Bürgerlicher Familien - Deutsches
Geschlechterbuch"
- Ferdinand Friedrich Faber's huge "Die Württembergischen
Familien-Stiftungen"
- Ruthe Blank's "Uracher Bürger vor 1640"
- "Orstfamilienbuch Setzingen"
- Pfeilsticker's "Neuer württembergisches Dienerbuch"
- Sigel's "Württembergische Pfarrer"
- "Die Zentralbehörden des Herzogstums Württemberg und ihre Beamten
1520-1629"
This last one includes all the officers who worked for the House of
Württemberg from 1520 to 1629. For example, nr. 6 above, Dr. Jacob
Königsbach, is listed with his wife, 7 children and who they married
to and their qualities, his parents and his father's quality (a
Town's clerk "Stadtschreiber" also listed and son of a Ducal
Councellor).

Genealogically they are more rewarding then lower nobility. For
example, for my greatgreatgrandmother Julia H. Moser (1819-1873) I have
a complete tree for the 6th generation (and 57 out of 64 in the 7th).
From all listed until nr. 63, all except 4 (3 from the neighbour Baden
and Bavaria, 1 from Alsatia) were from Württemberg, but commonly

moving to different towns in their lifetime. All were protestant (after
the Reform I never came across a marriage between a catholic and a
protestant) none had a mechanical profession and even up to the forth
or fifth generations before, none married in the titled nobility with
the only exception I will speak about in due time. Quite a closed
social class.

Quite like the lower nobility - not great landowners - they could decay
very quickly. Except for the very wealthy, if a girl married out of the
"educated" in one or two generations they were in the economical
circunstances that could led to emmigrate.
I suspect this was the case with Anne Susanne Pistorius, a youngest
girl who, already a widow, married Hans Michael Schnell, not of the
"Gelehrtenfamilie" and had 8 children. One of the girls, Susanne
Christine married Matthias Gessler, the imm.-1717 Mathias Castler.

To continue ...

Regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)

Gjest

Re: Susanne Christine Schnell - An almost gateway ancestor?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 apr 2006 18:15:47

Some notes on Johann Bernhard Varnbühler's ahnentafel:

16. Ulrich Varnbühler, b. ca. 1445 a captain and mayor of St. Gallen,
Switzerland, grandson of Hans Varnbühler b. ca. 1370.
17. Agnes Bölin (Beli von Belfort, not Montfort as I wrote) dau. of
Johannes Bölin (Beli) b. ca. 1415 (in Belfort ?)
18. Ludwig Meuting, b. 1444, d. 27.7.1562 Lindau, Bavaria. A great
merchant in Augsburg, descendent of Conrad Meuting b. ca. 1300.
19. Anna Regina Eresinger, nothing more is known about her but,
Schrimer who seems to be alone on his assessment, says that Agathe's
mother was 19. Clara Rehlinger with a large ancestry.
20. Ulrich Walther, b. 8.8.1454 d. 28.4.1524 both in Augsburg where he
was a great merchant and descendent of Conrad Walther, b. ca. 1308
Donauwörth, d. 1353 Donauwörth. By a female line von Hochstetter
Ulrich's pedigree goes to Siegfried von Hochstetter, b. ca. 1140
21. Regina von Stetten. The von Stetten line goes to Heinrich von
Stetten, b. about 1215. Amongst other interesting lines she has two to
Ulrich Erdtwein, b. ca. 1340 Augsburg and who was Augsburg's mayor.
These lines are published by Leo van de Pas in Worldroots.com and must
also be in Genealogics (I did not checked)
22. Ulrich 'd.Ä.' Rehlinger, b. 1477 Augsburg, d. 4.9.1547 (or
9.6.1547) Augsburg where he was mayor. The Rehlinger are attested in
Scherneck since 936 when a Wilhelm Rehlinger moved to the town but the
line goes up to Berchtold Rehlinger, b. 1089, d. 1160, m. 1122 Barbara
von Oberndorf.
Amongst others, Ulrich has Frickinger up to 1340 in Nördlingen,
Langenmantel, up to 1130 in Augsburg, Bitschlin, up to 1272 Augsburg,
(von) Gollenhofen, about 1190, Herwarth (Hörwarth), up to Wernher
Herwarth, b. ca. 1146, d. after 1191, von Rohrbach, up to about 1160,
von Albon-Lyon, up to André de Albon, b. ca. 1225 (?in Lyon, France),
Rehm, up to Anton Rehm b. ca. 1080 and several others up to the 12/13th
centuries.
23. Ursula Gossembrot, b. ca. 1480 Augsburg. The Gossembrot line goes
to Hans Gossembrot, b. ca. 1240 Augsburg; it is interconnected with
much of the above.
24. Johann (Hans) 'd.Ä.' Königsbach, b. ca. 1440 Stuttgart,
grandson of Andreas Königsbach senior councellor in Stuttgart from
1456 to 1489.

From nrs. 26 to 31 the maximum known are greatgrandparents and for
most, nothing more is known.


The town of Augsburg in Bavaria was the craddle of important merchants,
merchant-bankers and bankers 'tout court' amongst wich the Welser
(one of them financed the fleet of D. Francisco de Almeida the first
vice-roy sent to India after Vasco da Gama) and the Fugger, by any
criteria the richest non sovereign (Jakob) in the world in all times. I
did not checked all the lines but probably there are lines to the
Welser and possibly to the Fugger (I have).

And, finally, my "pièce de résistance" 25. Margarethe
Wirtemberg(er).
According to genealogist Dr. Decker-Hauff she was a bastard daughter of
Ulrich V. 'the Beloved' Count of Württemberg. This was accepted by
ES and others as can be seen in Genealogics
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 9&tree=LEO
Unfortunately a scholar found new evidence on her and even
acknowledging that she was often called "Wirttemberger" she used
another surname and was born in Lauffer am Neckar, some 40 km north of
Stuttgart.
Quoting his own words to me:
« As you can see in "Tafel1" Margarethe could be a daughter of "Ulrich
V., Herzog von Württemberg", but at the end, there are no 100%
evidences! »
I am waiting his new article to be published (this year 2006) and then
decide if I consider her a possible, a probable or an unproved daughter
of Ulrich V.
But, for those willing to accept probabilities, she is very interesting
as Count Ulrich V., through his grandmother Antonia Visconti has an
ancestry that most americans can not get with their british gateways,
along with the english Henry 1st and the kings of England before
William "the Conqueror", etc., etc..

Regards,
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)

Gjest

Re: Susanne Christine Schnell - An almost gateway ancestor?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 apr 2006 22:00:38

francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com schrieb:

Some notes on Johann Bernhard Varnbühler's ahnentafel:

Very interesting and informative - thanks for sharing this.

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