25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

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James Dow Allen

25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av James Dow Allen » 22 apr 2006 11:17:39

(In medieval days, political leaders served as cavalry soldiers.
Wouldn't it be nice if that custom applied to modern wars?)

The following 28 ancestors of the British heir William Windsor
lost their lives 25 October 1415 at the Battle of Agincourt.
Additions :-) and subtractions :-( are welcome.

Antoine de Bourgogne (Duc de Brabant & Limburg)
Beraud I Dauphin d'Auvergne (Sn. de St.Ilpize & Combronde)
Charles (I) d'Albret (Comte de Dreux & Vicomte de Tartas)
Dafydd `Gam' ap Llewelyn
Edward (Knight) Burnell (de Acton)
Ferry I/V (Duc) de Lorraine (aka Friedrich von Lothringen-Vaudemont)
Guillaume IV de Melun (Comte de Tancarville)
Guy III de Nesle (Sn. d'Offemont)
Hugues III d'Amboise (Sn. de Chaumont & de Saint-Verain)
Jean (Sn.) de Croy (& Renty? & Airaines & Seneghem)
Jean I (Duc) d'Alencon (the French Commander)
Jean IV de Bueil
Jean VI de Pierrepoint (Comte de Roucy & de Braine)
Jean de Lannoy
Mathieu de Rouvroy (Sn. de Saint Simon)
Michael (II) de la Pole (Earl of Suffolk)
Nicolas (Colart) d'Estouteville (Sn. de Torcy)
Philippe `the Younger' (Comte) de Bourgogne-Nevers
Pierre d'Orgemont (Comte de Chantilly)
Pierre de Wicke de Haverskerque (de Raisse)
Robert (Duc) de Bar (Comte de Marle & Soissons)
Robert VII (Sn.) de Wavrin (& de Lillers & de Malannoy)
Roger/Robert (Sir) Vaughan
Simon de Lalaing (Sn.) de Quievrain
Thierry de Hondschoote (van Hondeschote)
Valeran de Raineval
Wilhelm VI/VII von Horn (aka Willem Heer van Hoorne & Altena)
William Douglas (Lord of Galloway & Nithsdale)

The present Grand Duke of Luxemburg has 31 ancestors who died at
Agincourt.
These include all the preceding except Beraud Dauphin d'Auvergne
and Edward Burnell, and the following five:

Agnes III de la Tour
Antoine (Chevalier-Banneret) Berenger de Sassenage
Jacques I de Chatillon (Sn. de Dampierre)
Jean II de Barbancon (Sn. de Jeumont)
Jean II de Bethune (Sn. d'Autreches)

* * * * * * * * * * * *

William lost as many as 79 ancestors at the Battle of Flodden in 1513.
Does Battle of Agincourt rank as the 2nd bloodiest day for his
ancestors?

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Agincourt was the "most heroic of all the land battles England has
ever fought." The French outnumbered the English nearly 6 to 1,
but due to inferior tactics, they suffered perhaps 100 times the
casualties of the English! (In the confusion, French noblemen
who had been taken prisoner were ordered killed.)

A few weeks before, King Henry V had offered to duel with the French
commander and spare their armies; the offer was refused, but in
the event Henry and Duke Alencon did engage each other, with Alencon
falling. During his victory ride in London, King Henry wore plain
dress and refused to display his "bruised helmet and bended sword ...
lest [the public] should forget that the glory was due to God alone."

The Battle made Henry the premier King of Europe, but the young King
died of dysentery a few years later, and France's fate turned out to
be in the hands of a girl who was only three years old at the time of
Agincourt Battle, a horse-riding peasant from Domremy named Jeanne ...


James Dow Allen

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 22 apr 2006 11:49:06

In message of 22 Apr, "James Dow Allen" <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

(In medieval days, political leaders served as cavalry soldiers.

Or perhaps military leaders served as politicians. There are grounds
for saying that England, at least, was under the military occupation of
the Normans and thus, inevitably was in a continuous state of war both
internally and externally.

Wouldn't it be nice if that custom applied to modern wars?)

It is far better to have a few politicians around who are more likely
to negotiate and seek to keep the peace.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Townsend

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av John Townsend » 22 apr 2006 11:51:36

"Wot you not that the Lord with these few can overthrow the pride of the
French?"

These words are quoted by Churchill in "A History of the English Speaking
People" and are reminscent of his own famous words in 1940: "Never in the
field of human conflict did so many owe so much to so few". One wonders
whether in saying this he drew inspiration from Henry V?

Presumably, the source is Froissart?

Regards,

John Townsend
Genealogist/Antiquarian Bookseller
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk

Douglas Richardson

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 apr 2006 14:54:43

Dear James ~

You've included two Englishmen in your list of Prince William's 28
ancestors who died at the Battle of Agincourt, namely Sir Michael de la
Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk, and Sir Edward Burnell. Both men died of
dysentery at the siege of Harfleur, Sir Michael de la Pole on 18
September 1415, and Sir Edward Burnell on 23 Septempter 1415 [see
Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004)]. This was a full
month before the Battle of Agincourt.

So, your list is now down to 26 ancestors, none of them English.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royancestry. net
..
James Dow Allen wrote:
(In medieval days, political leaders served as cavalry soldiers.
Wouldn't it be nice if that custom applied to modern wars?)

The following 28 ancestors of the British heir William Windsor
lost their lives 25 October 1415 at the Battle of Agincourt.
Additions :-) and subtractions :-( are welcome.

Antoine de Bourgogne (Duc de Brabant & Limburg)
Beraud I Dauphin d'Auvergne (Sn. de St.Ilpize & Combronde)
Charles (I) d'Albret (Comte de Dreux & Vicomte de Tartas)
Dafydd `Gam' ap Llewelyn
Edward (Knight) Burnell (de Acton)
Ferry I/V (Duc) de Lorraine (aka Friedrich von Lothringen-Vaudemont)
Guillaume IV de Melun (Comte de Tancarville)
Guy III de Nesle (Sn. d'Offemont)
Hugues III d'Amboise (Sn. de Chaumont & de Saint-Verain)
Jean (Sn.) de Croy (& Renty? & Airaines & Seneghem)
Jean I (Duc) d'Alencon (the French Commander)
Jean IV de Bueil
Jean VI de Pierrepoint (Comte de Roucy & de Braine)
Jean de Lannoy
Mathieu de Rouvroy (Sn. de Saint Simon)
Michael (II) de la Pole (Earl of Suffolk)
Nicolas (Colart) d'Estouteville (Sn. de Torcy)
Philippe `the Younger' (Comte) de Bourgogne-Nevers
Pierre d'Orgemont (Comte de Chantilly)
Pierre de Wicke de Haverskerque (de Raisse)
Robert (Duc) de Bar (Comte de Marle & Soissons)
Robert VII (Sn.) de Wavrin (& de Lillers & de Malannoy)
Roger/Robert (Sir) Vaughan
Simon de Lalaing (Sn.) de Quievrain
Thierry de Hondschoote (van Hondeschote)
Valeran de Raineval
Wilhelm VI/VII von Horn (aka Willem Heer van Hoorne & Altena)
William Douglas (Lord of Galloway & Nithsdale)

The present Grand Duke of Luxemburg has 31 ancestors who died at
Agincourt.
These include all the preceding except Beraud Dauphin d'Auvergne
and Edward Burnell, and the following five:

Agnes III de la Tour
Antoine (Chevalier-Banneret) Berenger de Sassenage
Jacques I de Chatillon (Sn. de Dampierre)
Jean II de Barbancon (Sn. de Jeumont)
Jean II de Bethune (Sn. d'Autreches)

* * * * * * * * * * * *

William lost as many as 79 ancestors at the Battle of Flodden in 1513.
Does Battle of Agincourt rank as the 2nd bloodiest day for his
ancestors?

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Agincourt was the "most heroic of all the land battles England has
ever fought." The French outnumbered the English nearly 6 to 1,
but due to inferior tactics, they suffered perhaps 100 times the
casualties of the English! (In the confusion, French noblemen
who had been taken prisoner were ordered killed.)

A few weeks before, King Henry V had offered to duel with the French
commander and spare their armies; the offer was refused, but in
the event Henry and Duke Alencon did engage each other, with Alencon
falling. During his victory ride in London, King Henry wore plain
dress and refused to display his "bruised helmet and bended sword ...
lest [the public] should forget that the glory was due to God alone."

The Battle made Henry the premier King of Europe, but the young King
died of dysentery a few years later, and France's fate turned out to
be in the hands of a girl who was only three years old at the time of
Agincourt Battle, a horse-riding peasant from Domremy named Jeanne ...


James Dow Allen

James Dow Allen

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av James Dow Allen » 23 apr 2006 08:12:04

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 22 Apr, "James Dow Allen" <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
(In medieval days, political leaders served as cavalry soldiers.

Or perhaps military leaders served as politicians....

Wouldn't it be nice if that custom applied to modern wars?)

It is far better to have a few politicians around who are more likely
to negotiate and seek to keep the peace.

That was my point. Do you think G.W. Bush and Rumsfeld would have
indulged in their peculiar adventures, if they would have to serve in
the front line?

It's off-topic here, but comments on my Presidential rankings are
welcome:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... olitic.htm

James Dow Allen

James Dow Allen

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av James Dow Allen » 25 apr 2006 07:54:10

Douglas Richardson wrote:
... Sir Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk ... died of
dysentery at the siege of Harfleur ... on 18 September 1415, ...

Mea culpa. Apparently, after Michael (II) died, his son, Michael (III)
became the 3rd Earl, but was killed five weeks later at the Battle
of Agincourt. I conflated Michael II with Michael III. The latter had
three daughters, but two died young and the other was Abbess,
so oMichael wasn't anybody's ancestor.

Sir Edward Burnell ... died of dysentery at the siege of Harfleur
... on 23 Septempter 1415 [see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004)], ... a full month before the Battle of Agincourt.

Somebody elsa culpa. The Agincourt death of Burnell is given by,
among others, genealogics.org and Ed Mann (citing Faris).

James Dow Allen

Leo van de Pas

Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 apr 2006 11:20:02

Dear James Dow Allen,

I think you are a bit naughty making me a source. When you look at
genealogics, you should look at the source(s) mentioned. In this case, Paget
would not help, but CP clearly states he died at Agincourt. Volume II page
435 in a footnote.

And I always thought that Agincourt was a village...............

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Dow Allen" <jdallen2000@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: 25 October 1415, near Agincourt Castle


Douglas Richardson wrote:
... Sir Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk ... died of
dysentery at the siege of Harfleur ... on 18 September 1415, ...

Mea culpa. Apparently, after Michael (II) died, his son, Michael (III)
became the 3rd Earl, but was killed five weeks later at the Battle
of Agincourt. I conflated Michael II with Michael III. The latter had
three daughters, but two died young and the other was Abbess,
so oMichael wasn't anybody's ancestor.

Sir Edward Burnell ... died of dysentery at the siege of Harfleur
... on 23 Septempter 1415 [see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004)], ... a full month before the Battle of Agincourt.

Somebody elsa culpa. The Agincourt death of Burnell is given by,
among others, genealogics.org and Ed Mann (citing Faris).

James Dow Allen


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