Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

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John Brandon

Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 15:37:33

The item below may show that well-born women could use their maiden
names (or previously-married names) in the period of interest to
possible Skipwith descendants:

F. J. Routledge, ed., _Calendar of the Clarendon State Papers Preserved
in the Bodleian Library_, 5 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon Press,18[_]-1872),
5:420:

Sept. 1 [1664], Boston. Anna Baynton to Clarendon. Loyal professions.
Asks favour for a poor widow. Her father had a wine licence confirmed
by Sir Lionel Cranfeelde, afterwards Lord Treasurer, for three lives.
Writer forfeited it through her trustee failing to pay some part of the
rent to the wine office. Hopes the King has not empowered the new
commissioners to annul this grant. Asks him [Clarendon] to consider her
desperate case and get this licence restored to her.

This is clearly the widow Anne (Baynton) Batt of New England (her
husband died in 1661). Moreover, her husband was very closely related
to the letter's addressee, Lord Clarendon (see _Notes and Queries_ 220
(1975), p. 29). One might have thought she would use her married name
to stress the connection to Lord Clarendon, but it seems to be a common
view that the Bayntons were somewhat higher up the social ladder than
the Batts.


Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 apr 2006 16:32:56

John Brandon wrote:
The item below may show that well-born women could use their maiden
names (or previously-married names) in the period of interest to
possible Skipwith descendants:

F. J. Routledge, ed., _Calendar of the Clarendon State Papers Preserved
in the Bodleian Library_, 5 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon Press,18[_]-1872),
5:420:

Sept. 1 [1664], Boston. Anna Baynton to Clarendon. Loyal professions.
Asks favour for a poor widow. Her father had a wine licence confirmed
by Sir Lionel Cranfeelde, afterwards Lord Treasurer, for three lives.
Writer forfeited it through her trustee failing to pay some part of the
rent to the wine office. Hopes the King has not empowered the new
commissioners to annul this grant. Asks him [Clarendon] to consider her
desperate case and get this licence restored to her.

This is clearly the widow Anne (Baynton) Batt of New England (her
husband died in 1661). Moreover, her husband was very closely related
to the letter's addressee, Lord Clarendon (see _Notes and Queries_ 220
(1975), p. 29). One might have thought she would use her married name
to stress the connection to Lord Clarendon, but it seems to be a common
view that the Bayntons were somewhat higher up the social ladder than
the Batts.

This is the fourth time that you have posted this extract over the past
five years, so it would be interesting to know how, as it is apparently
only an extract of the original document, do we know that the
petitioner signed as Anna Baynton?

Is it not possible that the document refers to her as Anna (nee)
Baynton in order to assist her identification as the daughter of the
original grantee (she may have been called Anna Baynton in the grant
for lives) - a possibility that you have adverted to previously?

I assume you are correct in your identification of her as the wife of
Christopher Batt, but how certain is this?

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 16:55:52

This is the fourth time that you have posted this extract over the past
five years, so it would be interesting to know how, as it is apparently
only an extract of the original document, do we know that the
petitioner signed as Anna Baynton?

I assume the editorial practice would be to take the name *as signed*
and insert it as a header to the calendar entry ["Anna Baynton to
Clarendon"], but I admit it would be helpful to see the original
document.

Possibly her marriage had not been very happy, as her husband was
"accidentally" shot by one of the sons ...

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 17:01:59

Possibly her marriage had not been very happy, as her husband was "accidentally" shot by one of the sons ...


As Savage puts it, he "was casu. k. 10 Aug. 1661 by a s. firing at a
mark in the orchard."

Douglas Richardson

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 apr 2006 17:37:58

Dear John ~

Great find! Thank so much for sharing this information. Anne
(Baynton) Batt's father, Ferdinando Batt, was an innkeeper in England,
which explains why he held a wine license.

Like Diana (Skipwith) Dale, Anne (Baynton) Batt was among the highest
born women to come to colonial America. Among Anne's near kinsfolk are
William Cavendish, 1st Earl of Devonshire, William Cavendish, 1st Duke
of Newcastle, Henry Frederick Howard, Earl of Arundel, Surrey, &
Norfolk, Sir William Howard, Viscount Stafford, John Manners, 8th Earl
of Rutland, Anthony Ashley-Cooper, 3rd Earl of Shaftesbury, James
Annesley, 3rd Earl of Anglesey, Robert Pierrepont, 1st Earl of
Kington-upon-Hull, plus a whole raft of countesses.

Anne (Baynton) Batt's petition showing that she used her maiden name
long after her marriage should lay to rest once and for all whether or
not her fellow immigrant, Diana (Skipwith) Dale, could have used her
maiden name after marriage. And, once the issue of Diana Skipwith
using maiden name after marriage is swept away, the evidence is
overwhelming that Diana was the sole wife of Major Edward Dale,
Esquire, and the mother of all three of his children.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

John Brandon wrote:
< The item below may show that well-born women could use their maiden
< names (or previously-married names) in the period of interest to
< possible Skipwith descendants:
<
< F. J. Routledge, ed., _Calendar of the Clarendon State Papers
Preserved
< in the Bodleian Library_, 5 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon
Press,18[_]-1872),
< 5:420:
<
< Sept. 1 [1664], Boston. Anna Baynton to Clarendon. Loyal professions.
< Asks favour for a poor widow. Her father had a wine licence confirmed
< by Sir Lionel Cranfeelde, afterwards Lord Treasurer, for three lives.
< Writer forfeited it through her trustee failing to pay some part of
the
< rent to the wine office. Hopes the King has not empowered the new
< commissioners to annul this grant. Asks him [Clarendon] to consider
her
< desperate case and get this licence restored to her.
<
< This is clearly the widow Anne (Baynton) Batt of New England (her
< husband died in 1661). Moreover, her husband was very closely
related
< to the letter's addressee, Lord Clarendon (see _Notes and Queries_
220
< (1975), p. 29). One might have thought she would use her married
name
< to stress the connection to Lord Clarendon, but it seems to be a
common
< view that the Bayntons were somewhat higher up the social ladder than
< the Batts.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 20 apr 2006 19:23:44

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Anne (Baynton) Batt's petition showing that she used her maiden name
long after her marriage should lay to rest once and for all whether or
not her fellow immigrant, Diana (Skipwith) Dale, could have used her
maiden name after marriage.

Rumors of the death of this controversy are greatly exagerated. As Nat
pointed out, the case of a woman using her maiden name after the death
of her husband is not directly analogous to that of a woman using her
maiden name while her marriage was still a going concern.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Beating a Dead Horse

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 apr 2006 22:08:02

My conclusion regarding the timing of Diana Skipwith's marriage to
Major Edward Dale is based on a review of the evidence, not on rumors.


dcr

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
<
< Rumors of the death of this controversy are greatly exagerated. As
Nat
< pointed out, the case of a woman using her maiden name after the
death
< of her husband is not directly analogous to that of a woman using her

< maiden name while her marriage was still a going concern.
<
< taf

Chris Dickinson

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 20 apr 2006 22:15:26

John Brandon wrote:
The item below may show that well-born women could use their maiden
names (or previously-married names) in the period of interest to
possible Skipwith descendants:

and

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Rumors of the death of this controversy are greatly exagerated. As Nat
pointed out, the case of a woman using her maiden name after the death of
her husband is not directly analogous to that of a woman using her maiden
name while her marriage was still a going concern.


This is an example of a woman called by her previously married name (Frances
was daughter of Christopher Lancaster of Sockbridge and former wife of Sir
Christopher Lowther of Whitehaven - but he was a baronet so it's not exactly
a good example)

The parish register of Lamplugh has this burial entry:

|6 January 1646/7
|
|The Lady Frances Lowther, the wife of John Lamplugh, Esq., died the 4th of
|Januarie betwixt 3 and foure of the clocke in the morning.


John Lamplugh of Lamplugh Hall, Lord of the Manor of Lamplugh, no doubt
outraged by this insult to the name of Lamplugh, made sure that his next and
third wife had the name his second should have used - his cousin Frances,
daughter of Thoms Lamplugh of Ribton. :-)

Chris

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 apr 2006 22:38:32

John Brandon schrieb:

This is the fourth time that you have posted this extract over the past
five years, so it would be interesting to know how, as it is apparently
only an extract of the original document, do we know that the
petitioner signed as Anna Baynton?

I assume the editorial practice would be to take the name *as signed*
and insert it as a header to the calendar entry ["Anna Baynton to
Clarendon"], but I admit it would be helpful to see the original
document.

Possibly her marriage had not been very happy, as her husband was
"accidentally" shot by one of the sons ...

No doubt an interesting tale in there somewhere!

It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early 17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 22:42:27

Who is this woman, who "resumed the name of Howard" ...?

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... &vq=howard

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Beating a Dead Horse

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 20 apr 2006 22:51:49

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Rumors of the death of this controversy are greatly exagerated. As
Nat
pointed out, the case of a woman using her maiden name after the
death
of her husband is not directly analogous to that of a woman using her

maiden name while her marriage was still a going concern.

My conclusion regarding the timing of Diana Skipwith's marriage to
Major Edward Dale is based on a review of the evidence, not on rumors.


Nice strawman. You might even trick a few readers into thinking I had
claimed the latter was the case.

No, your conclusion - that a single documented case of birth surname
usage by a New England _widow_ somehow "lay[s] to rest" a question of
surname usage by a Virginia _bride_ - was not based on rumor, just on a
failure to note a critical distinction between the status of the two
that prevents one from being the direct analog of the other. Thus, the
conclusion reached through ignoring this distinction, that the question
has been "lay[ed] to rest", is hardly a non-partisan assessment of the
situation.

taf

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 22:58:22

"Noble supposes that Mary Fleetwood was a daughter of Bridget Cromwell
by her first husband, and that she went by the name of Fleetwood
because it was less obnoxious than that [illegible] ..."

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... ame&pgis=1

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 apr 2006 23:20:09

John Brandon schrieb:

This is an example of a woman called by her previously married name
(Frances
was daughter of Christopher Lancaster of Sockbridge and former wife of Sir
Christopher Lowther of Whitehaven - but he was a baronet so it's not exactly
a good example)

Actually, it is a good example, in that it shows that women sometimes
thought they were entitled to use the "best" name they had had (whether
by birth or by *prior* marriage) ...

True. For instance, Frances Grey, Dowager Duchess of Suffolk married
her master-of-the-horse, Adrian Stokes, after her husband the Duke
died, yet she always retained her ducal style (e.g. PROCAT C 1/1469/75:
"Adrian Stokes, esquire, and Frances, Duchess of Suffolk, his wife").
The problem with the Skipwith case is that there would seem to be no
reason for Diana to have used her maiden name in preference to her
married surname after the marriage: Frances Grey, and Lady Lowther
clearly had something to lose (status). We see the same thing today
with the late Princess of Wales's step-mother, who after her divorce
from a French count - her third husband - has reverted to calling
herself Raine, Countess Spencer, although legally she is no longer
entitled to do so.

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 apr 2006 23:54:43

This one might be worth checking into: "Elizth. Barton, 'lately the
wife of Ambrose Waller, and then the wife of Ralph Coatsworth" ...

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... %22wife+of

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 21 apr 2006 02:50:34

In article <1145574980.498209.247150@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

NEHGR, 47:396-97: DAME KATHERINE BARNARDISTON wife of William Towse
Sergeant at the Law, 25 February 8th of Charles, proved 19 March 1632,
confirmed by sentence 2 March 1633. At time of marriage of the said
Dame Katherine with the said William Towse she had assigned certain
goods &c. unto Richard Deane, now citizen and alderman of London --

This is interesting; it shows how this widow of a knight kept his name
and the style 'Dame' even during (not merely after) her subsequent
marriage to a non-knight. This still belongs in a category distinct
from a presumed bride using an unadorned maiden name with no other
qualifiers.

Also interesting is that she names at least two 'sons' who are actually
her stepsons, if we believe the footnote on p. 397 that they were
children of her late husband by his first wife.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Chris Dickinson

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 23 apr 2006 19:20:16

MA-R wrote:

The problem with the Skipwith case is that there would seem to be no
reason for Diana to have used her maiden name in preference to her
married surname after the marriage: Frances Grey, and Lady Lowther
clearly had something to lose (status).
snip



There was another very practical reason, other than status, for her to make
that choice.

Her husband, John Lamplugh, had 'raised a regiment' for the King, fought at
Marston Moor, been wounded and captured and, at the time of her death, was
at the rock bottom of his fortunes. Carrying the name Lowther rather than
Lamplugh might have been a wise political move.

In any case, I don't think that examples of name-continuation from one
formal social class to a lower formal socail class have any relevance
whatsoever to the continued use of surnames within a non-titled social
class; so Lady Frances is, sadly, a red herring - or a dead duck if you
prefer!

However, on another look at the register, the Lamplugh family (bless 'em!)
provide another example that adds ammunition to both sides. John Lampugh's
first wife was Jane Kirkby.

Marriage 20 January 1638/9

John Lamplugh, esquire, married at Kirkbye, Mrs. Jaine Kirkbye on Sunday

Burial 3 August 1640

Mrs. Jane Lamplugh, wife of John Lamplugh, Esqr. together with Jaine her
daughter, who was baptised and buried that same daye. Her name was Mrs.
Kirkby before.

The phrase 'Her name was Mrs. Kirkby before' indciates both a pride in the
name (and so its continuation) and yet its lack of formal use.

[Jane Kirkby was the daughter of Mr Roger Kirkby of Kirkby. The use of 'Mrs'
was a standard period term of respect for spinsters of social standing]

Chris

Renia

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Renia » 25 apr 2006 23:58:03

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~

Great find! Thank so much for sharing this information. Anne
(Baynton) Batt's father, Ferdinando Batt, was an innkeeper in England,
which explains why he held a wine license.

An innkeeper would not have been seen as high-born at this time.

Renia

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Renia » 25 apr 2006 23:58:55

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Dear John ~

Great find! Thank so much for sharing this information. Anne
(Baynton) Batt's father, Ferdinando Batt, was an innkeeper in England,
which explains why he held a wine license.

Like Diana (Skipwith) Dale, Anne (Baynton) Batt was among the highest
born women to come to colonial America.

An innkeeper would not have been seen as high-born during this period.
(Sorry for re-post. Snipped too much.)

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 00:56:57

Not for spinsters. It was a title of respect for untitled married women,
the "Mistress" of such-and-such family's house - hence "Mrs". It was the
female equivalent of "Mr", the form of respect for a gentleman without a
title.

Yes for spinsters! At this time, "Mistress" or "Mrs." was a blanket
term of address for higher-status ladies, married OR unmarried.

My ancestress Margaret, wife of John Gifford, was called "Mrs. Margaret
Gifford" in a certain document. She had an unmarried daughter Margaret
ALSO called "Mistress Margaret Gifford" in the same document.

Brad Verity

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 27 apr 2006 18:06:45

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early 17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]

Dear Michael,

Per PA3 (pp. 69-70), Ferdinando Baynton, "Gent., of New Salisbury,
Wiltshire, innholder" was baptized at Bromham, Wiltshire 28 May 1566,
the third and youngest son of Henry Baynton, Esq., of Temple Rockley
(in Preshute) and Lavington Baynton (in Market Lavington), Wiltshire,
and Chelsea, Middlesex, and his wife Anne Cavendish. Henry Baynton
was, in turn, the fourth of five sons of Sir Edward Baynton, of
Bromham, M.P. (and the elder son by Sir Edward's 2nd wife Isabel
Leigh).

No death dates are provided for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish - the
last sentence on their potted bio is "In 1595 he sold the manor of
Temple Rockley (in Preshute) to the tenant, Thomas Hutchins." The
sources cited for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish are:

**'Jour. of the Derbyshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc.' 29 (1907): 81-102
[My guess is that this source has to do with the Cavendishes, since the
Bayntons don't appear to have had anything to do with Derbyshire.]
**'Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623' (H.S.P. 105-6) (1954): 5-8 (Bainton
pedigree: "Henry Bainton de Co Wilts Ar: 4 filius=... filia Rici
Cavendish de Com Nott militis") [Note: this is in opposition to the
parentage for Anne that Douglas says in the potted bio: "daughter of
William Cavendish, Knt. of Northaw, Hertfordshire, and Chatsworth,
Derbyshire".]
**A.R. Wagner 'English Gen.' (1960): 182-183, Table II at end.
**W.G. Davis 'Anc. of Abel Lunt (1963): 244-246.
**'VCH Wiltshire' 8 (1965): 241-242; 10 (1975): 87-88; 11 (1980): 8; 12
(1983): 174.

I have seen none of the above sources.

PA3 states that Ferdinando Baynton "became an innholder through the
inheritance of his wife from her grandfather, William Weare alias
Browne, innholder of Salisbury." No death dates are provided for
Ferdinando or for his wife "married about 1598 Joan Weare alias Browne,
widow of John Hinckley, of Salisbury, Wiltshire, and daughter of John
Weare alias Browne, of Calne, Wiltshire." The last sentence in their
potted bio is "Ferdinando Baynton, Gent., was living 4 Nov. 1616."

I don't have a copy of page 70 in PA3, but I handwrote that one of the
sources cited for this couple (I don't know if it was the only source)
is:

**'Genealogist' n.s. 24 (1908): 131.

I have not seen that source either.

None of the above sources are primary - the closest being the 1623
Visitation Baynton pedigree, which has error. Nor were any of the
sources published since 1970, except for the VCH Wiltshire volumes, so
there does not appear to have been any recent research on this line,
and it needs to double-checked.

Nothing in the line as given in PA3 indicates any kind of "high-born"
status for Anne Baynton Batt. She was, apparently, the
great-granddaughter of a M.P. of a respectable Wiltshire gentry family,
though her father, the youngest son of a younger son, worked for a
living in town and apparently held no manors or property outside of it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, --------Brad

Douglas Richardson

Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 apr 2006 18:39:55

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Like Diana (Skipwith) Dale, Anne (Baynton) Batt was among the highest
born women to come to colonial America.

The family of Anne (Baynton) Batt was selected by Sir Anthony Wagner in
one of his book to demonstrate social and economic mobility among high
born English families. As I stated earlier, Anne (Baynton) Batt had
many high born relatives among her kinsfolk. She herself was not high
born.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 19:24:12

Brad Verity wrote:
None of the above sources are primary - the closest being the 1623
Visitation Baynton pedigree, which has error. Nor were any of the
sources published since 1970, except for the VCH Wiltshire volumes, so
there does not appear to have been any recent research on this line,
and it needs to double-checked.

Seems sort of foolish to harbor such doubts about the work of the great
genealogist, Walter G. Davis, who investigated this line fully to his
satisfaction ...

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 19:47:34

Brad Verity schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early 17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]

Dear Michael,

Per PA3 (pp. 69-70), Ferdinando Baynton, "Gent., of New Salisbury,
Wiltshire, innholder" was baptized at Bromham, Wiltshire 28 May 1566,
the third and youngest son of Henry Baynton, Esq., of Temple Rockley
(in Preshute) and Lavington Baynton (in Market Lavington), Wiltshire,
and Chelsea, Middlesex, and his wife Anne Cavendish. Henry Baynton
was, in turn, the fourth of five sons of Sir Edward Baynton, of
Bromham, M.P. (and the elder son by Sir Edward's 2nd wife Isabel
Leigh).

Very interesting - many thanks Brad. And thanks too to Douglas, in his
response to Tony, for citing Wagner's work. This is indeed a
fascinating and well-documented case of English social descent of the
kind that Wagner loved to record: his table showing the heirs of Lord
Dudley in the 19th century: one a gamekeeper, another a Duke, within a
couple of generations, is illustrative.

MA-R

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