Dear Newsgroup ~
The genealogical material copied further below identifies Lucy, wife of
William/Guillaume du Hommet (died 1209), Constable of Normandy, as the
daughter of Robert de Brus, by his wife, Agnes Paynel. I haven't seen
this parentage for Lucy du Hommet listed in any other source.
Unfortunately, the author provides no documentation for his statements,
so the information needs to be verified.
Be that as it may, I note that William and Lucy du Hommet are ancestral
through their daughter, Agatha du Hommet, to Joan de Geneville (died
1356), wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March (died 1330).
They are also ancestral through their daughter, Agnes du Hommet, to the
later Wake family of England. For a summary of Agnes' numerous
descendants, which include Kings Richard II, Edward IV, Richard III,
Henry VII, Henry VIII, etc., see the following weblink to Jim Weber's
database:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I07402
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/andr.leclere/html/dat702.htm#15
du HOMMET, Guillaume Sexe: Masculin
Naissance : vers 1135
Décès : 1209
Occupation : Baron du Hommet et de la Luthumière, Connétable de
Normandie
Parents:
Père: du HOMMET, Richard
Mère: de SAY, Agnès
Famille:
Conjoint:
de BRUCE, Luce Sexe: Féminin
Naissance : vers 1135
Décès : avant 1190
Occupation : Dame de la Luthumière
Parents:
Père: de BRUCE, Robert
Mère: PAYNEL, Agnès
Enfant(s):
du HOMMET, Agathe
du HOMMET, Richard
du HOMMET, Enguerrand
Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable of N
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
J.C.B.Sharp
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
In article <1144596729.450311.66760@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
the dates do not work to allow Lucy to be a daughter of Robert de Brus and
his wife Agnes (who was not a Paynel). I copy below a message I posted in
2000 which was all I could discover at the time.
BRIX
Stapleton cites the problem article as: Anciens chateaux de
l'arrondissement de Valognes, Mémoir par Mons. de Gerville (i clxxvii).
Some time ago I found it by accident (I would never have found it
otherwise): M.de Gerville, Mémoire sur les anciens Chateaux du département
de la Manche, Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de la Normande, 1824,
177-367.
1. William de Bruis, farmed the forest of Brix 1122x1135 (Haskins,
Norman Institutions, 102), the place Brix is about 10 km south of
Cherbourg and between the two was the ducal forest of Brix.
2. Adam de Bruis, granted the church of Brix to the priory of la
Luthumière 1144 (Gerville 234), Henry II confirmed this with other gifts
1156x1161 (Delisle & Berger, Recueil des Actes de Henry II, i 331), the
castle at Brix was known as Chateau d'Adam.
Barrow, realising that this could not be Adam de Brus I of Skelton who
died 1143, makes him his son Adam II (Kingdom of the Scots 322), but he
was a minor at this date. The inference that Robert de Brus of Skelton was
lord of Brix has therefore no foundation.
3. Peter de Bruis, confirmed the grant to la Luthumière 1155
(Gerville 234), married after 1150 Agnes daughter of Stephen count of
Aumale and widow of William de Roumare II (T.Stapleton, Magni Rotuli
Scaccarii Normanniae, ii xxvii), she was the lady Annes of Burton Agnes
living 1170 (EYC ii 34).
Farrer was unaware of this Peter and makes her the wife of Adam de Brus II
of Skelton (EYC ii 35).
4. Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of Normandy who
held the forest of la Luthumière in succession to his father Richard
(Gerville 241), he lost his English lands in 1204.
The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated 1232 by which
William, grantee of la Luthumière, and his wife Lucy, heiress to her
grandfather Adam, gave various rents to the priory of la Luthumière,
witnessed by Richard their son and William Say (Gerville 242). The date
should no doubt be corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton
attempted to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte but the
footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the author's
possession. There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of la
Luthumière.
5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress of Richard de
la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
6. Nichola du Hommet, married Robert de Mortimer (Gerville 243).
J.C.B.Sharp
London
royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
The genealogical material copied further below identifies Lucy, wife of
William/Guillaume du Hommet (died 1209), Constable of Normandy, as the
daughter of Robert de Brus, by his wife, Agnes Paynel. I haven't seen
this parentage for Lucy du Hommet listed in any other source.
Unfortunately, the author provides no documentation for his statements,
so the information needs to be verified.
Be that as it may, I note that William and Lucy du Hommet are ancestral
through their daughter, Agatha du Hommet, to Joan de Geneville (died
1356), wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March (died 1330).
They are also ancestral through their daughter, Agnes du Hommet, to the
later Wake family of England. For a summary of Agnes' numerous
descendants, which include Kings Richard II, Edward IV, Richard III,
Henry VII, Henry VIII, etc., see the following weblink to Jim Weber's
database:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... eber&id=I0
7402
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/andr.leclere/html/dat702.htm#15
du HOMMET, Guillaume Sexe: Masculin
Naissance : vers 1135
Décès : 1209
Occupation : Baron du Hommet et de la Luthumière, Connétable de
Normandie
Parents:
Père: du HOMMET, Richard
Mère: de SAY, Agnès
Famille:
Conjoint:
de BRUCE, Luce Sexe: Féminin
Naissance : vers 1135
Décès : avant 1190
Occupation : Dame de la Luthumière
Parents:
Père: de BRUCE, Robert
Mère: PAYNEL, Agnès
Enfant(s):
du HOMMET, Agathe
du HOMMET, Richard
du HOMMET, Enguerrand
the dates do not work to allow Lucy to be a daughter of Robert de Brus and
his wife Agnes (who was not a Paynel). I copy below a message I posted in
2000 which was all I could discover at the time.
BRIX
Stapleton cites the problem article as: Anciens chateaux de
l'arrondissement de Valognes, Mémoir par Mons. de Gerville (i clxxvii).
Some time ago I found it by accident (I would never have found it
otherwise): M.de Gerville, Mémoire sur les anciens Chateaux du département
de la Manche, Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de la Normande, 1824,
177-367.
1. William de Bruis, farmed the forest of Brix 1122x1135 (Haskins,
Norman Institutions, 102), the place Brix is about 10 km south of
Cherbourg and between the two was the ducal forest of Brix.
2. Adam de Bruis, granted the church of Brix to the priory of la
Luthumière 1144 (Gerville 234), Henry II confirmed this with other gifts
1156x1161 (Delisle & Berger, Recueil des Actes de Henry II, i 331), the
castle at Brix was known as Chateau d'Adam.
Barrow, realising that this could not be Adam de Brus I of Skelton who
died 1143, makes him his son Adam II (Kingdom of the Scots 322), but he
was a minor at this date. The inference that Robert de Brus of Skelton was
lord of Brix has therefore no foundation.
3. Peter de Bruis, confirmed the grant to la Luthumière 1155
(Gerville 234), married after 1150 Agnes daughter of Stephen count of
Aumale and widow of William de Roumare II (T.Stapleton, Magni Rotuli
Scaccarii Normanniae, ii xxvii), she was the lady Annes of Burton Agnes
living 1170 (EYC ii 34).
Farrer was unaware of this Peter and makes her the wife of Adam de Brus II
of Skelton (EYC ii 35).
4. Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of Normandy who
held the forest of la Luthumière in succession to his father Richard
(Gerville 241), he lost his English lands in 1204.
The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated 1232 by which
William, grantee of la Luthumière, and his wife Lucy, heiress to her
grandfather Adam, gave various rents to the priory of la Luthumière,
witnessed by Richard their son and William Say (Gerville 242). The date
should no doubt be corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton
attempted to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte but the
footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the author's
possession. There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of la
Luthumière.
5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress of Richard de
la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
6. Nichola du Hommet, married Robert de Mortimer (Gerville 243).
J.C.B.Sharp
London
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
Dear J.C.B. ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The arrangement of the early Brus family of England has been revised in
recent time by a well researched article written by Ruth Blakely
entitled "The Bruses of Skelton and William of Aumale," which appeared
in Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 73 (2001): 19-28. I've read Ms.
Blakely's article and concur with her findings. The corrected Brus
family pedigree makes Adam I de Brus (died 1143) the husband of Agnes
of Aumale, and Adam II de Brus the husband of Juetta de Arches, as
charted below.
1.Adam I de Brus I died 1143.
+ Agnes of Aumale (she married 2nd William de Roumare, he died 1151)
2. Adam II de Brus II c1134-1196
+ Juetta de Arches d. aft 1209
3.Peter de Brus d.1222
3.Isabel de Brus
2. William de Brus
I assume that Adam I de Brus must have been the individual who granted
the church of Brix in Normandy to the priory of la Luthumière in 1144.
If so, then his death date given above would slightly be in error.
Gerville, whose article you cited, mentioned that there is an English
chronicler, Simeon of Durham, who states that Adam I de Brus died in
1144. If so, perhaps 1144 is the correct death date for Adam I de
Brus. Also, I assume that he and his wife, Agnes of Aumale, would be
the intended grandparents of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet. However,
Adam I de Brus' grandson, Peter de Brus, died 1222, can not possibly be
the individual who confirmed Adam de Brus' grant to la Luthumière in
1155. However, the Peter de Brus, who was living in 1155, might
possibly an unknown son of Adam I de Brus.
Without doing a lot of checking, I'm guessing that Lucy, wife of
Guillaume/William du Hommet, was born no later than 1145, as her
daughter, Agnes' son and heir, Baldwin Wake, was born about 1180. If
so, then Lucy could not be the granddaughter of Adam I de Brus, but she
could easily be his daughter, at least if we follow the Blakely
arrangement. To determine this matter, I suppose we will have to see
the charter cited by Gerville, in which Lucy du Hommet is identified as
the granddaughter of Adam de Brus, living in 1144.
Incidentally, the correct title of the article by Charles D. Gerville
is "Mémoire sur les anciens châteaux du département de la Manche."
It appeared in the journal, Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires
de Normandie (abbreviated as M.S.A.N.), 1 (1824): 177-367. It can be
found on the gallica website at the following weblink:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-200040
The reference to the charter allegedly dated 1232 can be found on page
242. Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, is styled "heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus her grandfather" ["héritière des biens d'Adam
de Bruys, son aïeul"]. I find it interesting that Lucy du Hommet is
not styled heiress of the lands of Adam de Brus, but heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus.
Regarding the marriage of Adam I de Brus to Agnes of Aumale, I posted a
note earlier here on the newsgroup that I had been unable to find any
charters which directly called Adam II de Brus' wife, Agnes (the same
statement is true for Adam I), nor do I think any are mentioned in Ruth
Blakely's article. Interestingly, I see in your post, you've assigned
Agnes of Aumale instead as the wife of Peter de Brus, living 1155. If
so, perhaps the Brus pedigree is missing a generation. It is known
that Adam II de Brus did not marry his wife, Juetta de Arches, until
after 1169, when her first husband died. If so, perhaps Adam II was
born c. 1150, and his father, Peter de Brus, c. 1125. I would have to
study the Blakely article again to see if the inclusion of an
additional generation is warranted. If Lucy du Hommet was born c.
1145, she could be the daughter of Peter de Brus, born c. 1125, who was
the son and heir of Adam de Brus, died 1144. If we follow your
arrnagement, then I presume Agnes of Aumale would have to be the wife
of Peter de Brus, living 1155, not Adam I or Adam II. Peter de Brus
would be her second husband.
In the meantime, your post has given us all great food for thought.
Thank you once again for sharing this information with the newsgroup.
Again, much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
J.C.B.Sharp wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The arrangement of the early Brus family of England has been revised in
recent time by a well researched article written by Ruth Blakely
entitled "The Bruses of Skelton and William of Aumale," which appeared
in Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 73 (2001): 19-28. I've read Ms.
Blakely's article and concur with her findings. The corrected Brus
family pedigree makes Adam I de Brus (died 1143) the husband of Agnes
of Aumale, and Adam II de Brus the husband of Juetta de Arches, as
charted below.
1.Adam I de Brus I died 1143.
+ Agnes of Aumale (she married 2nd William de Roumare, he died 1151)
2. Adam II de Brus II c1134-1196
+ Juetta de Arches d. aft 1209
3.Peter de Brus d.1222
3.Isabel de Brus
2. William de Brus
I assume that Adam I de Brus must have been the individual who granted
the church of Brix in Normandy to the priory of la Luthumière in 1144.
If so, then his death date given above would slightly be in error.
Gerville, whose article you cited, mentioned that there is an English
chronicler, Simeon of Durham, who states that Adam I de Brus died in
1144. If so, perhaps 1144 is the correct death date for Adam I de
Brus. Also, I assume that he and his wife, Agnes of Aumale, would be
the intended grandparents of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet. However,
Adam I de Brus' grandson, Peter de Brus, died 1222, can not possibly be
the individual who confirmed Adam de Brus' grant to la Luthumière in
1155. However, the Peter de Brus, who was living in 1155, might
possibly an unknown son of Adam I de Brus.
Without doing a lot of checking, I'm guessing that Lucy, wife of
Guillaume/William du Hommet, was born no later than 1145, as her
daughter, Agnes' son and heir, Baldwin Wake, was born about 1180. If
so, then Lucy could not be the granddaughter of Adam I de Brus, but she
could easily be his daughter, at least if we follow the Blakely
arrangement. To determine this matter, I suppose we will have to see
the charter cited by Gerville, in which Lucy du Hommet is identified as
the granddaughter of Adam de Brus, living in 1144.
Incidentally, the correct title of the article by Charles D. Gerville
is "Mémoire sur les anciens châteaux du département de la Manche."
It appeared in the journal, Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires
de Normandie (abbreviated as M.S.A.N.), 1 (1824): 177-367. It can be
found on the gallica website at the following weblink:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-200040
The reference to the charter allegedly dated 1232 can be found on page
242. Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, is styled "heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus her grandfather" ["héritière des biens d'Adam
de Bruys, son aïeul"]. I find it interesting that Lucy du Hommet is
not styled heiress of the lands of Adam de Brus, but heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus.
Regarding the marriage of Adam I de Brus to Agnes of Aumale, I posted a
note earlier here on the newsgroup that I had been unable to find any
charters which directly called Adam II de Brus' wife, Agnes (the same
statement is true for Adam I), nor do I think any are mentioned in Ruth
Blakely's article. Interestingly, I see in your post, you've assigned
Agnes of Aumale instead as the wife of Peter de Brus, living 1155. If
so, perhaps the Brus pedigree is missing a generation. It is known
that Adam II de Brus did not marry his wife, Juetta de Arches, until
after 1169, when her first husband died. If so, perhaps Adam II was
born c. 1150, and his father, Peter de Brus, c. 1125. I would have to
study the Blakely article again to see if the inclusion of an
additional generation is warranted. If Lucy du Hommet was born c.
1145, she could be the daughter of Peter de Brus, born c. 1125, who was
the son and heir of Adam de Brus, died 1144. If we follow your
arrnagement, then I presume Agnes of Aumale would have to be the wife
of Peter de Brus, living 1155, not Adam I or Adam II. Peter de Brus
would be her second husband.
In the meantime, your post has given us all great food for thought.
Thank you once again for sharing this information with the newsgroup.
Again, much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
J.C.B.Sharp wrote:
the dates do not work to allow Lucy to be a daughter of Robert de Brus and
his wife Agnes (who was not a Paynel). I copy below a message I posted in
2000 which was all I could discover at the time.
BRIX
Stapleton cites the problem article as: Anciens chateaux de
l'arrondissement de Valognes, Mémoir par Mons. de Gerville (i clxxvii).
Some time ago I found it by accident (I would never have found it
otherwise): M.de Gerville, Mémoire sur les anciens Chateaux du département
de la Manche, Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de la Normande, 1824,
177-367.
1. William de Bruis, farmed the forest of Brix 1122x1135 (Haskins,
Norman Institutions, 102), the place Brix is about 10 km south of
Cherbourg and between the two was the ducal forest of Brix.
2. Adam de Bruis, granted the church of Brix to the priory of la
Luthumière 1144 (Gerville 234), Henry II confirmed this with other gifts
1156x1161 (Delisle & Berger, Recueil des Actes de Henry II, i 331), the
castle at Brix was known as Chateau d'Adam.
Barrow, realising that this could not be Adam de Brus I of Skelton who
died 1143, makes him his son Adam II (Kingdom of the Scots 322), but he
was a minor at this date. The inference that Robert de Brus of Skelton was
lord of Brix has therefore no foundation.
3. Peter de Bruis, confirmed the grant to la Luthumière 1155
(Gerville 234), married after 1150 Agnes daughter of Stephen count of
Aumale and widow of William de Roumare II (T.Stapleton, Magni Rotuli
Scaccarii Normanniae, ii xxvii), she was the lady Annes of Burton Agnes
living 1170 (EYC ii 34).
Farrer was unaware of this Peter and makes her the wife of Adam de Brus II
of Skelton (EYC ii 35).
4. Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of Normandy who
held the forest of la Luthumière in succession to his father Richard
(Gerville 241), he lost his English lands in 1204.
The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated 1232 by which
William, grantee of la Luthumière, and his wife Lucy, heiress to her
grandfather Adam, gave various rents to the priory of la Luthumière,
witnessed by Richard their son and William Say (Gerville 242). The date
should no doubt be corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton
attempted to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte but the
footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the author's
possession. There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of la
Luthumière.
5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress of Richard de
la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
6. Nichola du Hommet, married Robert de Mortimer (Gerville 243).
J.C.B.Sharp
London
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
Dear J.C.B. ~
I've been giving your arrangement of the Brus family some further
thought. What puzzles me is how Lucy du Hommet can be heiress to the
goods of her grandfather, Adam I de Brus, while the English estates of
the family clearly descended to Adam II de Brus and his descendants.
The only explanation I can think of is that Lucy was assigned the
Norman lands of her grandfather after the loss of Normandy in 1204.
Thus, Lucy would be heiress by forfeiture, not heir at law.
The historian, Powicke, shows that Lucy's husband, Guillaume du Hommet,
joined King Philippe Auguste in 1204, and that he was living in
possession of his French estates in 1220. Guillaume's English lands
were confiscated in 1204. For Mr. Powicke's comments, see the
following weblink:
http://perso.modulonet.fr/~earlyblazo/d ... Honors.pdf
If Mr. Powicke is correct, then Guillaume du Hommet was living in 1220,
and did not die in 1209 or 1204 as claimed by various online sources.
If so, perhaps the 1232 date of the charter of Guillaume du Hommet
reported by Gerville is not in error after all.
In a related vein, I might note that Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 670
(sub Lincoln) states that Agnes of Aumale married (2nd) Piers de Brus.
The source it cites is Bowles, Lacock Abbey, pg. 77 (from T.
Stapleton). Having Agnes of Aumale married to Peter de Brus, living
1155, makes sense chronologically. I guesstimate that Agnes of Aumale
was born say 1115/20, whereas Lucy du Hommet's grandson, Baldwin Wake,
was born about 1180. This would allow about 60-65 years for three
generations which is on the short side of things, but still possible.
It is virtually impossible, however, for Agnes of Aumale to be shoved
back a generation to become the wife of Adam I de Brus. Thus, if Lucy
du Hommet is a member of this family, it almost makes it virtually
certain that Agnes of Aumale was not the wife of Adam I de Brus as
stated by Ruth Blakely. Given the chronology of the Hommet-Wake
family, the only place Agnes of Aumale could occupy in Lucy du Hommet's
ancestry would be for Agnes to be Lucy's mother.
Again, this gives us much food for thought.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
I've been giving your arrangement of the Brus family some further
thought. What puzzles me is how Lucy du Hommet can be heiress to the
goods of her grandfather, Adam I de Brus, while the English estates of
the family clearly descended to Adam II de Brus and his descendants.
The only explanation I can think of is that Lucy was assigned the
Norman lands of her grandfather after the loss of Normandy in 1204.
Thus, Lucy would be heiress by forfeiture, not heir at law.
The historian, Powicke, shows that Lucy's husband, Guillaume du Hommet,
joined King Philippe Auguste in 1204, and that he was living in
possession of his French estates in 1220. Guillaume's English lands
were confiscated in 1204. For Mr. Powicke's comments, see the
following weblink:
http://perso.modulonet.fr/~earlyblazo/d ... Honors.pdf
If Mr. Powicke is correct, then Guillaume du Hommet was living in 1220,
and did not die in 1209 or 1204 as claimed by various online sources.
If so, perhaps the 1232 date of the charter of Guillaume du Hommet
reported by Gerville is not in error after all.
In a related vein, I might note that Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 670
(sub Lincoln) states that Agnes of Aumale married (2nd) Piers de Brus.
The source it cites is Bowles, Lacock Abbey, pg. 77 (from T.
Stapleton). Having Agnes of Aumale married to Peter de Brus, living
1155, makes sense chronologically. I guesstimate that Agnes of Aumale
was born say 1115/20, whereas Lucy du Hommet's grandson, Baldwin Wake,
was born about 1180. This would allow about 60-65 years for three
generations which is on the short side of things, but still possible.
It is virtually impossible, however, for Agnes of Aumale to be shoved
back a generation to become the wife of Adam I de Brus. Thus, if Lucy
du Hommet is a member of this family, it almost makes it virtually
certain that Agnes of Aumale was not the wife of Adam I de Brus as
stated by Ruth Blakely. Given the chronology of the Hommet-Wake
family, the only place Agnes of Aumale could occupy in Lucy du Hommet's
ancestry would be for Agnes to be Lucy's mother.
Again, this gives us much food for thought.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
Dear J.C.B. ~
Regarding the history of the "extra" Peter de Brus, living 1155, I find
an individual of this name witnessed a charter of King David I of
Scotland issued to Holyrood Abbey [Reference: Lawrie, Early Scottish
Charters: Prior to 1153 (1905): 116-119. The charter is undated, but
it would necessarily be dated in or before 1151, as the charter was
granted with the assent of King David I's son, Henry, who died in that
year.
For a transcript of King David I's charter, see the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9&pg=PA116
The editor, Mr. Lawrie, states on page 386 that Peter de Brus does not
appear in any other record of King David I's reign. He further alleges
that some of the witnesses of the charter are not contemporaries to
each other. However, he evidently was not aware of Peter de Brus'
charter in France dated 1155, which is cited by Gerville.
If Peter de Brus' wife was Agnes of Aumale, she would have been near
kinswoman to King David I's wife, Maud of Huntingdon. Queen Maud's
mother, Judith of Lens, was half-sister of Agnes of Aumale's father,
Stephen, Count of Aumale. I should note, however, that Peter de Brus
can not have married Agnes of Aumale earlier than 1151, which is the
year that King David I's son, Henry, died.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
Regarding the history of the "extra" Peter de Brus, living 1155, I find
an individual of this name witnessed a charter of King David I of
Scotland issued to Holyrood Abbey [Reference: Lawrie, Early Scottish
Charters: Prior to 1153 (1905): 116-119. The charter is undated, but
it would necessarily be dated in or before 1151, as the charter was
granted with the assent of King David I's son, Henry, who died in that
year.
For a transcript of King David I's charter, see the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9&pg=PA116
The editor, Mr. Lawrie, states on page 386 that Peter de Brus does not
appear in any other record of King David I's reign. He further alleges
that some of the witnesses of the charter are not contemporaries to
each other. However, he evidently was not aware of Peter de Brus'
charter in France dated 1155, which is cited by Gerville.
If Peter de Brus' wife was Agnes of Aumale, she would have been near
kinswoman to King David I's wife, Maud of Huntingdon. Queen Maud's
mother, Judith of Lens, was half-sister of Agnes of Aumale's father,
Stephen, Count of Aumale. I should note, however, that Peter de Brus
can not have married Agnes of Aumale earlier than 1151, which is the
year that King David I's son, Henry, died.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
-
J.C.B.Sharp
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
In article <1144634950.864165.106330@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
The chronicle referred to was by John of Hexham who wrote a continuation
to Simeon of Durham. I have a copy of Sir Roger Twysden's edition of 1652
which was probably the one used by Gerville. Under 1143 it states that
"His diebus Robertus de Brus obiit" (271), and under 1144 that "Obiit &
Adam de Brus" (273). However I have inserted a note that the years around
this time appear to be dated one year too late, and to complicate things
further Adam's death is the last for the year and follows a statement
dated to Christmas Day which prompts the question as to when those in
Normandy started the year.
J.C.B.Sharp
London
royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
Dear J.C.B. ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The arrangement of the early Brus family of England has been revised in
recent time by a well researched article written by Ruth Blakely
entitled "The Bruses of Skelton and William of Aumale," which appeared
in Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 73 (2001): 19-28. I've read Ms.
Blakely's article and concur with her findings. The corrected Brus
family pedigree makes Adam I de Brus (died 1143) the husband of Agnes
of Aumale, and Adam II de Brus the husband of Juetta de Arches, as
charted below.
1.Adam I de Brus I died 1143.
+ Agnes of Aumale (she married 2nd William de Roumare, he died 1151)
2. Adam II de Brus II c1134-1196
+ Juetta de Arches d. aft 1209
3.Peter de Brus d.1222
3.Isabel de Brus
2. William de Brus
I assume that Adam I de Brus must have been the individual who granted
the church of Brix in Normandy to the priory of la Luthumière in 1144.
If so, then his death date given above would slightly be in error.
Gerville, whose article you cited, mentioned that there is an English
chronicler, Simeon of Durham, who states that Adam I de Brus died in
1144.
The chronicle referred to was by John of Hexham who wrote a continuation
to Simeon of Durham. I have a copy of Sir Roger Twysden's edition of 1652
which was probably the one used by Gerville. Under 1143 it states that
"His diebus Robertus de Brus obiit" (271), and under 1144 that "Obiit &
Adam de Brus" (273). However I have inserted a note that the years around
this time appear to be dated one year too late, and to complicate things
further Adam's death is the last for the year and follows a statement
dated to Christmas Day which prompts the question as to when those in
Normandy started the year.
If so, perhaps 1144 is the correct death date for Adam I de
Brus. Also, I assume that he and his wife, Agnes of Aumale, would be
the intended grandparents of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet. However,
Adam I de Brus' grandson, Peter de Brus, died 1222, can not possibly be
the individual who confirmed Adam de Brus' grant to la Luthumière in
1155. However, the Peter de Brus, who was living in 1155, might
possibly an unknown son of Adam I de Brus.
Without doing a lot of checking, I'm guessing that Lucy, wife of
Guillaume/William du Hommet, was born no later than 1145, as her
daughter, Agnes' son and heir, Baldwin Wake, was born about 1180. If
so, then Lucy could not be the granddaughter of Adam I de Brus, but she
could easily be his daughter, at least if we follow the Blakely
arrangement. To determine this matter, I suppose we will have to see
the charter cited by Gerville, in which Lucy du Hommet is identified as
the granddaughter of Adam de Brus, living in 1144.
Incidentally, the correct title of the article by Charles D. Gerville
is "Mémoire sur les anciens châteaux du département de la Manche."
It appeared in the journal, Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires
de Normandie (abbreviated as M.S.A.N.), 1 (1824): 177-367. It can be
found on the gallica website at the following weblink:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-200040
The reference to the charter allegedly dated 1232 can be found on page
242. Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, is styled "heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus her grandfather" ["héritière des biens d'Adam
de Bruys, son aïeul"]. I find it interesting that Lucy du Hommet is
not styled heiress of the lands of Adam de Brus, but heiress of the
goods of Adam de Brus.
Regarding the marriage of Adam I de Brus to Agnes of Aumale, I posted a
note earlier here on the newsgroup that I had been unable to find any
charters which directly called Adam II de Brus' wife, Agnes (the same
statement is true for Adam I), nor do I think any are mentioned in Ruth
Blakely's article. Interestingly, I see in your post, you've assigned
Agnes of Aumale instead as the wife of Peter de Brus, living 1155. If
so, perhaps the Brus pedigree is missing a generation. It is known
that Adam II de Brus did not marry his wife, Juetta de Arches, until
after 1169, when her first husband died. If so, perhaps Adam II was
born c. 1150, and his father, Peter de Brus, c. 1125. I would have to
study the Blakely article again to see if the inclusion of an
additional generation is warranted. If Lucy du Hommet was born c.
1145, she could be the daughter of Peter de Brus, born c. 1125, who was
the son and heir of Adam de Brus, died 1144. If we follow your
arrnagement, then I presume Agnes of Aumale would have to be the wife
of Peter de Brus, living 1155, not Adam I or Adam II. Peter de Brus
would be her second husband.
In the meantime, your post has given us all great food for thought.
Thank you once again for sharing this information with the newsgroup.
Again, much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
J.C.B.Sharp wrote:
the dates do not work to allow Lucy to be a daughter of Robert de
Brus and
his wife Agnes (who was not a Paynel). I copy below a message I
posted in
2000 which was all I could discover at the time.
BRIX
Stapleton cites the problem article as: Anciens chateaux de
l'arrondissement de Valognes, Mémoir par Mons. de Gerville (i
clxxvii).
Some time ago I found it by accident (I would never have found it
otherwise): M.de Gerville, Mémoire sur les anciens Chateaux du
département
de la Manche, Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de la Normande,
1824,
177-367.
1. William de Bruis, farmed the forest of Brix 1122x1135 (Haskins,
Norman Institutions, 102), the place Brix is about 10 km south of
Cherbourg and between the two was the ducal forest of Brix.
2. Adam de Bruis, granted the church of Brix to the priory of la
Luthumière 1144 (Gerville 234), Henry II confirmed this with other
gifts
1156x1161 (Delisle & Berger, Recueil des Actes de Henry II, i 331),
the
castle at Brix was known as Chateau d'Adam.
Barrow, realising that this could not be Adam de Brus I of Skelton who
died 1143, makes him his son Adam II (Kingdom of the Scots 322), but
he
was a minor at this date. The inference that Robert de Brus of
Skelton was
lord of Brix has therefore no foundation.
3. Peter de Bruis, confirmed the grant to la Luthumière 1155
(Gerville 234), married after 1150 Agnes daughter of Stephen count of
Aumale and widow of William de Roumare II (T.Stapleton, Magni Rotuli
Scaccarii Normanniae, ii xxvii), she was the lady Annes of Burton
Agnes
living 1170 (EYC ii 34).
Farrer was unaware of this Peter and makes her the wife of Adam de
Brus II
of Skelton (EYC ii 35).
4. Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of Normandy who
held the forest of la Luthumière in succession to his father Richard
(Gerville 241), he lost his English lands in 1204.
The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated 1232 by
which
William, grantee of la Luthumière, and his wife Lucy, heiress to her
grandfather Adam, gave various rents to the priory of la Luthumière,
witnessed by Richard their son and William Say (Gerville 242). The
date
should no doubt be corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton
attempted to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte
but the
footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the author's
possession. There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of
la
Luthumière.
5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress of
Richard de
la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
6. Nichola du Hommet, married Robert de Mortimer (Gerville 243).
J.C.B.Sharp
London
J.C.B.Sharp
London
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable
Dear J.C.B. ~
I find there is information on Adam II de Brus on page 166 in Paul
Dalton's book, Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154,
published in 1994. This material can be found at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... YtKpZQEbTc
Mr. Dalton indicates that Adam II de Brus witnessed charters dated c.
1150, 1154x1168, and 1150x1167. If these dates are correct, then Adam
II de Brus was a surely contemporary to Peter de Brus, living in 1155.
Mr. Dalton believes that Adam II de Brus was married to Agnes [of
Aumale], sister of William, Earl of York, but that this marriage can
not have taken place until after the death of Agnes' first husband,
William de Roumare, who died "about 1151."
On the identity of Adam II de Brus' wife, Mr. Dalton is clearly in
error. We know that Adam II de Brus was married sometime after 1169 to
Ivette (or Juetta) de Arches, by whom he had his son and heir, Peter.
While it is conceivable that Adam II was earlier married to Agnes of
Aumale, this would not give Adam II's descendants by Ivette any claim
to Agnes' family's estates.
However, if we move Agnes of Aumale back a generation as wife of Adam I
de Brus, then she would have to have married him before his death in
1144. However, Dalton shows that Adam I's son, Adam II, was witnessing
a charter as early as c. 1150. If Adam II was Agnes' son, this makes
it difficult for Agnes to still be having children by William de
Roumare in the late 1140's. And, it is virtually impossible
chronologically for Agnes of Aumale to have been the grandmother of
Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, who was surely born no later than
the early 1150's.
Something is obviously wrong here. Got any ideas?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net
I find there is information on Adam II de Brus on page 166 in Paul
Dalton's book, Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154,
published in 1994. This material can be found at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... YtKpZQEbTc
Mr. Dalton indicates that Adam II de Brus witnessed charters dated c.
1150, 1154x1168, and 1150x1167. If these dates are correct, then Adam
II de Brus was a surely contemporary to Peter de Brus, living in 1155.
Mr. Dalton believes that Adam II de Brus was married to Agnes [of
Aumale], sister of William, Earl of York, but that this marriage can
not have taken place until after the death of Agnes' first husband,
William de Roumare, who died "about 1151."
On the identity of Adam II de Brus' wife, Mr. Dalton is clearly in
error. We know that Adam II de Brus was married sometime after 1169 to
Ivette (or Juetta) de Arches, by whom he had his son and heir, Peter.
While it is conceivable that Adam II was earlier married to Agnes of
Aumale, this would not give Adam II's descendants by Ivette any claim
to Agnes' family's estates.
However, if we move Agnes of Aumale back a generation as wife of Adam I
de Brus, then she would have to have married him before his death in
1144. However, Dalton shows that Adam I's son, Adam II, was witnessing
a charter as early as c. 1150. If Adam II was Agnes' son, this makes
it difficult for Agnes to still be having children by William de
Roumare in the late 1140's. And, it is virtually impossible
chronologically for Agnes of Aumale to have been the grandmother of
Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, who was surely born no later than
the early 1150's.
Something is obviously wrong here. Got any ideas?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry. net