Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith

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Douglas Richardson

Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 apr 2006 19:06:26

Dear Newsgroup ~

The current discussion regarding the children of Edward Dale, Esquire
(died 1695), of Virginia seems to have forgotten Edward Dale's epitaph
found in the prayer book kept by the family of his daughter, Katherine
(Dale) Carter. For interest's sake, I've copied a transcript of the
epitaph below.

The epitaph clearly states that Edward Dale married his wife, Diana
Skipwith, in his "early years." Furthermore, to date, no evidence been
advanced by anyone suggesting he had more than one wife. If Edward
Dale had but one wife, Diana Skipwith, then she obviously would be the
mother of all of his legitimate children.

As for Diana Skipwith using her maiden name after marriage, this point
has been argued and I think found wanting. While it is true that
English women in this period customarily dropped their maiden name upon
marriage, Diana Skipwith was of higher social rank than most colonial
wives, she being the daughter and sister of a baronet. As such, it
should surprise no one that she employed her maiden name after marriage
in a record in Virginia. High born wives in the medieval period
certainly used their maiden name after marriage. There is nothing to
preclude Diana Skipwith from having done the same thing.

In a related vein, I recently learned that Mary, wife of Thomas
Howard, and second daughter of Henry, Earl of Arundel, signed her name
after marriage as "Maria Arundell." Mary died in 1557, in her father's
lifetime [Reference: Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 253 (sub Arundel)].
So high born English women could and did use their maiden names after
marriage even in later periods.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Hic Despositum
Spe Certe Resurgendi in Christo
quicquid habuit Mortale
EDWARDUS DALE, ARMIGER.
Tandem hornorum et Dierum Obiit
20 Feby: Anno Dom: 1695.

He descended from an Ancient Family
in England & came into ye Colly
of Virga after the Death of his Unhappy
Master Charles First.
For above 30 years he enjoyed
various Employments of Public Trust
in ye coty of lancaster wch he
Dischred wth great Fidelity & Satisfacn.
to the Governor & People.
As neighbor-Father-Husband he Ex
celled and in early years Crownd
his other Accomplishments by a Felicitous Marriage
wth Diana ye daughter of Sr Henry Skypwith
of Preswold in ye Coty of Leicester Bart
whi is left a little while to Mourn him.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 apr 2006 19:47:34

Dear Newsgroup ~

The current discussion regarding the children of Edward Dale, Esquire
(died 1695), of Virginia seems to have forgotten Edward Dale's epitaph
found in the prayer book kept by the family of his daughter, Katherine
(Dale) Carter. For interest's sake, I've copied a transcript of the
epitaph below.

The epitaph clearly states that Edward Dale married his wife, Diana
Skipwith, in his "early years." Furthermore, to date, no evidence been
advanced by anyone suggesting he had more than one wife. If Edward
Dale had but one wife, Diana Skipwith, then she obviously would be the
mother of all of his legitimate children.

As for the claim that Diana Skipwith could not have used her maiden
name after marriage, this point has been argued and I think found
wanting. While it is true that English women in this period
customarily dropped their maiden name upon marriage, Diana Skipwith was
of higher social rank than most colonial wives, she being the daughter
and sister of a baronet. As such, it should surprise no one that her
maiden name occurs after marriage in a record in Virginia. High born
wives in the medieval period certainly used their maiden name after
marriage. There is nothing to preclude Diana Skipwith from having done
the same thing.

In a related vein, I recently learned that Mary, wife of Thomas
Howard, and second daughter of Henry, Earl of Arundel, signed her name
after marriage as "Maria Arundell." Mary died in 1557, in her father's
lifetime [Reference: Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 253 (sub Arundel)].
So high born women could and did use their maiden names after marriage,
even in later periods.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry .net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Hic Despositum
Spe Certe Resurgendi in Christo
quicquid habuit Mortale
EDWARDUS DALE, ARMIGER.
Tandem hornorum et Dierum Obiit
20 Feby: Anno Dom: 1695.

He descended from an Ancient Family in England & came into ye Colly
of Virga after the Death of his Unhappy Master Charles First.
For above 30 years he enjoyed various Employments of Public Trust
in ye coty of lancaster wch he Dischred wth great Fidelity & Satisfacn.
to the Governor & People. As neighbor-Father-Husband he Ex
celled and in early years Crownd his other Accomplishments by a
Felicitous Marriage
wth Diana ye daughter of Sr Henry Skypwith of Preswold in ye Coty of
Leicester Bart
whi is left a little while to Mourn him.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 apr 2006 20:06:10

In article <1144173986.488228.29780@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

The current discussion regarding the children of Edward Dale, Esquire
(died 1695), of Virginia seems to have forgotten Edward Dale's epitaph
found in the prayer book kept by the family of his daughter, Katherine
(Dale) Carter. For interest's sake, I've copied a transcript of the
epitaph below.

The epitaph clearly states that Edward Dale married his wife, Diana
Skipwith, in his "early years." Furthermore, to date, no evidence been
advanced by anyone suggesting he had more than one wife. If Edward
Dale had but one wife, Diana Skipwith, then she obviously would be the
mother of all of his legitimate children.

The 'evidence of more than one wife' is the indirect evidence, based on
the known chronology of the Dale children, and on Diana Skipwith's use
of her maiden name in 1655. It is 'evidence'. But there is no
independent documentation of the existence of such a wife.

As for Diana Skipwith using her maiden name after marriage, this point
has been argued and I think found wanting. While it is true that
English women in this period customarily dropped their maiden name upon
marriage, Diana Skipwith was of higher social rank than most colonial
wives, she being the daughter and sister of a baronet. As such, it
should surprise no one that she employed her maiden name after marriage
in a record in Virginia. High born wives in the medieval period
certainly used their maiden name after marriage. There is nothing to
preclude Diana Skipwith from having done the same thing.

As I recently stated, I, too, am suspicious of the assertion that
Diana's use of her maiden name in 1655 means she MUST have been single
then. But until an analogous example is found, from a 17th-century
married gentlewoman, I think the 1655 Diana Skipwith documents are
sufficient to cast the maternity of the daughters into doubt--the
epitaph notwithstanding.

For what it's worth, I think the prayer book is a fascinating document
in its own right, and its evidence has not been used carefully enough
for these families in general.

In a related vein, I recently learned that Mary, wife of Thomas
Howard, and second daughter of Henry, Earl of Arundel, signed her name
after marriage as "Maria Arundell." Mary died in 1557, in her father's
lifetime [Reference: Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 253 (sub Arundel)].
So high born English women could and did use their maiden names after
marriage even in later periods.

Can someone adduce a 17th-century example from a social rank similar to
that occupied by Skipwith?

Why is uncertainty not an acceptable conclusion for a genealogical study?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

R. Battle

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av R. Battle » 04 apr 2006 20:46:27

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Douglas Richardson quoted Edward Dale's epitaph:

<snip>
He descended from an Ancient Family in England & came into ye Colly
of Virga after the Death of his Unhappy Master Charles First.
For above 30 years he enjoyed various Employments of Public Trust
in ye coty of lancaster wch he Dischred wth great Fidelity & Satisfacn.
to the Governor & People. As neighbor-Father-Husband he Ex
celled and in early years Crownd his other Accomplishments by a
Felicitous Marriage
wth Diana ye daughter of Sr Henry Skypwith of Preswold in ye Coty of
Leicester Bart
whi is left a little while to Mourn him.

I actually read this a little differently, Doug. First, "in early years"
seems to be nothing more than an acknowledgement that he married Diana
Skipwith a long time ago and not necessarily when he was young. And in
any case, since the difference in the absolutely-necessary dates of
marriage between the two camps is so narrow (by 1653 as opposed to after
1655), an appeal to his approximate age at marriage does little to
distinguish the two. Second, the sentence in which "early years" appears
seems to indicate that that marriage occurred *after* the
"Accomplishments" at which he "ex-celled" (i.e., as
"neighbor-Father-Husband"). It is a slender reed, and I wouldn't use it
to support the earlier-wife position, but at the least I don't think that
it can be used to support the only-wife position.

-Robert Battle

Gjest

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 apr 2006 20:51:03

Douglas Richardson schrieb:

Dear Newsgroup ~
I recently learned that Mary, wife of Thomas
Howard, and second daughter of Henry, Earl of Arundel, signed her name
after marriage as "Maria Arundell." Mary died in 1557, in her father's
lifetime [Reference: Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 253 (sub Arundel)].
So high born women could and did use their maiden names after marriage,
even in later periods.

Interesting, except that her surname was properly Fitzalan, rather than
Arundel, the latter being her father's peerage title (cf probate of
"Maud FitzAlan, Countess of Arundel", proved in the Prerogative Court
of Canterbury, 25 October 1436, PROB 11/3).

Lady Mary FitzAlan married Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, in 1555,
and died in 1557; her only brother died without issue in 1556. The
date at which she signed as "Maria Arundell" is not stated above, but
could be 1556-1557, at which time she was her father's coheir (her
elder sister also died in their father's lifetime, without issue). The
probative value of this instance therefore seems somewhat reduced.

I have racked my brains to come up with an example in line with Nat's
request - i.e. that of a 17th century English baronet's daughter who
married an untitled gentleman - but haven't come up with anything of
value as yet.

MA-R

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 04 apr 2006 21:36:03

In message of 4 Apr, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

I have racked my brains to come up with an example in line with Nat's
request - i.e. that of a 17th century English baronet's daughter who
married an untitled gentleman - but haven't come up with anything of
value as yet.

I have found one, Lucy Barrington (d.1691), daughter of Sir Thos B. bart
(d.1644) and Frances Gobert. She married (1) William Cheney and (2) Sir
Toby Tyrrell bart (d.1671). Unfortunately while I have a transcript of a
letter signed by her it was during her second marriage and she wrote
"L.T." at the end. However this family conducted a voluminous
correspondence much of which has survived, some in Essex University and
some in the British Library and it may be that a letter survives from
her during her first marriage.

Because all such marriages were arranged in those times, a baronet's
daughter seems to have been mostly held for nothing less than a knight.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Renia

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av Renia » 04 apr 2006 22:33:10

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 4 Apr, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


I have racked my brains to come up with an example in line with Nat's
request - i.e. that of a 17th century English baronet's daughter who
married an untitled gentleman - but haven't come up with anything of
value as yet.


I have found one, Lucy Barrington (d.1691), daughter of Sir Thos B. bart
(d.1644) and Frances Gobert. She married (1) William Cheney and (2) Sir
Toby Tyrrell bart (d.1671). Unfortunately while I have a transcript of a
letter signed by her it was during her second marriage and she wrote
"L.T." at the end. However this family conducted a voluminous
correspondence much of which has survived, some in Essex University and
some in the British Library and it may be that a letter survives from
her during her first marriage.

Because all such marriages were arranged in those times, a baronet's
daughter seems to have been mostly held for nothing less than a knight.


At that period, baronets were hardly more than knights. They were not
(and are not) members of the peerage. The title was an invention by
James I as a revenue-raising exercise. You were offered a baronecy for
no other reason than you could afford to pay for it. On the other hand,
if you refused, and many did, then you paid a £10-£12 fine. Either way,
the king filled his pockets.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith {Revised Post]

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 04 apr 2006 22:47:07

In message of 4 Apr, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Because all such marriages were arranged in those times, a baronet's
daughter seems to have been mostly held for nothing less than a knight.


At that period, baronets were hardly more than knights. They were not
(and are not) members of the peerage. The title was an invention by
James I as a revenue-raising exercise. You were offered a baronecy
for no other reason than you could afford to pay for it. On the other
hand, if you refused, and many did, then you paid a £10-£12 fine.
Either way, the king filled his pockets.

Of course you are right. But when first created, the baronet paid for
vast tracts of land either in Nova Scotia or Ulster; he may not have
received that land though. Then his eldest son was automatically a
knight and finally the title was inherited, it no longer had to be
earned as knighthood did and still does (even if donations to parties
is the earning method now).

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

norenxaq

Re: Edward Dale's wife, Diana Skipwith

Legg inn av norenxaq » 04 apr 2006 23:21:02

Can someone adduce a 17th-century example from a social rank similar to
that occupied by Skipwith?

Why is uncertainty not an acceptable conclusion for a genealogical study?





because some people DEMAND certainty due to their psychological make up

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