Isolde De Mortimer m. Hugh De Audley

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Lockehead

Isolde De Mortimer m. Hugh De Audley

Legg inn av Lockehead » 15 mar 2006 06:17:54

2nd part of my quest for the facts:

Who were the parents of Isolde (Iseult) De Mortimer d. 1338, widow of
Ralph De Greystoke, who married Hugh De Audley d. 1325? Was it Edmund
De Mortimer and Margaret DeFienes OR was it Roger De Mortimer and
Maud De Braose?

Gjest

Re: Isolde De Mortimer m. Hugh De Audley

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mar 2006 11:21:36

Lockehead wrote:
Who were the parents of Isolde (Iseult) De Mortimer d. 1338, widow of
Ralph De Greystoke, who married Hugh De Audley d. 1325? Was it Edmund
De Mortimer and Margaret DeFienes OR was it Roger De Mortimer and
Maud De Braose?
This has been discussed a fair bit. Probably neither of those couples,

but possibly Edmund by an earlier wife.

Chris Phillips

Re: Isolde De Mortimer m. Hugh De Audley

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 15 mar 2006 11:34:02

Lockehead wrote:
Who were the parents of Isolde (Iseult) De Mortimer d. 1338, widow of
Ralph De Greystoke, who married Hugh De Audley d. 1325? Was it Edmund
De Mortimer and Margaret DeFienes OR was it Roger De Mortimer and
Maud De Braose?

You'll find quite a lot of discussion of this in the archives.

There doesn't appear to be any direct evidence of Isolde's parentage, and
the chronology seems to exclude her being a daughter of Edmund and Margaret.
It has been assumed (e.g. in Complete Peerage vol. 14) that she was the
daughter of an earlier marriage of Edmund, but that may also be
chronologically difficult, as Edmund was intended for the priesthood before
the death of his elder brother c. 1274 (CP i 347 places Isolde's first
marriage in or before 1286/7).

There are a few more details here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... tton.shtml

Chris Phillips

Lockehead

Re: Isolde De Mortimer m. Hugh De Audley

Legg inn av Lockehead » 15 mar 2006 15:23:47

Thank you both for responding. I will make the change to reflect a
question mark in my data file. :) It is really a pleasure to have a
resourse like this to iron out the questions one comes across when
dealing with ancient genealogy.

Douglas Richardson

Iseult de Mortimer, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de Audl

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 mar 2006 18:44:06

Dear Lockehead ~

Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley, can not possibly have been the daughter
of Sir Edmund de Mortimer, at least not legitimately. Iseult was born
say 1260, and thus was slightly younger than Edmund de Mortimer. She
married (1st) before 1287 Sir Walter de Balun, Knt., of Great Marcle,
Herefordshire, Eastington, Gloucestershire, and Arley, Staffordshire,
and Great Cheverel, Wiltshire. He was born about 1225 (aged 50 in
1275). Walter was heir in 1275 to his older brother, John de Balun.
He was summoned to serve against the Welsh in 1277 and 1282. Sir
Walter de Balun was living in 1287. Iseult married (2nd) before 1292
(date of suit) Hugh de Audley (or Aldithley), Knt., afterwards Lord
Audley, of Stratton (in Stratton Audley), Oxfordshire, Raunds,
Northamptonshire, and Bradwell and Chesterton (both in Wolstanton),
Gratton, and Mere, Staffordshire, Justice of North Wales, steward of
the king's household, Constable of Montgomery castle, younger son of
James de Audley, of Aldithley and Heleigh, Staffordshire, by Ela,
daughter of William Longespée, Knt. (grandson of King Henry II). They
had two sons, James and Hugh, Knt. [Earl of Gloucester], and one
daughter, Alice. Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley, died while a
prisoner in Wallingford castle shortly before 1 April 1325. In 1337
his widow, Iseult, endowed a chantry in the church of Eastington,
Gloucestershire. She died testate shortly before 4 August 1338.

As for Sir Edmund de Mortimer, his early history is well documented in
the records. He was born about 1251-4 (aged 28-30 in 1282, aged 40
in 1301). He was placed as a youth in the church. He was appointed
Canon of Hereford in 1263 and Treasurer of York in 1265. In 1268 his
father appointed attorneys in the cause in progress at the papal court
between him and Amaury de Montfort as to the treasurership of York. He
occurs as Treasurer of York in 1270. In 1274 the king committed his
houses at Oxford (later called Beaumont Palace) for him "to dwell in
them." On the death of his father in 1282, he ceased to pursue a
clerical career. He vacated his position as Canon of Hereford in Nov.
1282, and was granted livery of his father's lands 24 Nov. 1282. In
Dec. 1282 he and his brothers, Roger, William, and Geoffrey, were among
royal forces who defeated and killed Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, Prince of
Wales, at Builth. Sir Edmund married about 1286 Margaret de Fiennes,
daughter of William de Fiennes, Knt., of Wendover, Buckinghamshire,
Martock, Somerset, seigneur of Fiennes in Guisnes, by Blanche, daughter
of Jean de Brienne, Count of Montfort, Grand Butler of France
(descendant of King Henry II). Margaret was near kinswoman of Queen
Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I. They had five sons, Roger,
Knt. [1st Earl of March], John, Hugh (clerk), Walter (clerk), and
Edmund (clerk), and four daughters, Maud (wife of Thebaud de Verdun,
Knt., 2nd Lord Verdun), Joan (nun at Limbrook), Elizabeth (nun), and
Eleanor (wife of William de Kyme, Knt.).

For those who desire additional information on Iseult, wife of Sir
Walter de Balun and Sir Hugh de Audley, they may wish consult the
sources below:

Shaw, Hist. & Antiq. of Staffordshire 2(1) (1801): 256 (calls Iseult
both daughter and sister of Edmund de Mortimer). Beltz, Memorials of
the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841): 75-84. Year Books of
Edward I 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128-129, 142-147. Duncumb et
al., Colls. Towards the Hist. & Antiqs. of Hereford 3 (1882): 4-10
(identifies Iseult as daughter of Edmund de Mortimer), 54-55,
60-61. Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages
(1883): 17 (sub Audley). Wrottesley, Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls
(Colls. Hist. Staffs. 7(1)) (1886): 6, 26-27, 137-138, 142, 247;
(Colls. Hist. Staffs. 9(1)) (1888): 132; (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 10)
(1889): 128. C.P.R. 1292-1301 (1895): 429. C.P.R. 1313-1317
(1898): 565 (Hugh styled "king's kinsman"). Round, Studies in
Peerage and Fam. Hist. (1901): 206-209 (identifies wife Iseult as
daughter of Edmund de Mortimer). List of Inqs. ad Quod Damnum 1 (PRO
Lists and Indexes 17) (1904): 344. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 5
(1906): 120. Wedgwood, The Parentage of Sir James de Audley, K.G.
(Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 9) (1906): 245-268 (identifies Iseult as
"probably a daughter" of Roger de Mortimer of Wigmore). C.P. 1
(1910): 347-348 (sub Audley) (identifies Iseult as daughter of Edmund
de Mortimer); 14 (1998): 488 (erroneously identifies wife Iseult as
daughter of Edmund de Mortimer "by his first wife"). Cal. IPMs 6
(1910): 410-411. Index of Placita de Banco 1327-1328 2 (PRO Lists
and Indexes 32) (1910): 707, 713. Boyd & Wrottesley, Final Concords
(Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3rd Ser. 1911) (1911): 367-370. Bridgeman,
Fam. of Swynnerton (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3rd Ser. 1913) (1913):
39-40, 343. C.F.R. 1337-1347 (1915): 89, 127. Cal. Inqs. Misc. 2
(1916): 221-222. C.C.R. 1323-1327 (1898): 467. VCH Northampton 4
(1937): 30-31. Hatton, Book of Seals (1950): 293. VCH Oxford 6
(1959): 325-326. NEHGR 116 (1962): 16-17 (identifies Iseult as
"illegitimate" or daughter of Edmund de Mortimer "by an unknown
earlier marriage"). VCH Gloucester 10 (1972): 127-128. VCH
Stafford 7 (1996): 70-71. Montacute, Cal. of the Reg. of Simon de
Montacute Bishop of Worcester 1334-1337 (Worcestershire Hist. Soc.
n.s. 15) (1996): 47, 299. Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307)
2 (1997): 20 (arms of Hugh de Audley: Gules fretty or, a label azure),
27.

That Iseult was a Mortimer seems highly probable for three reasons.
First, in 1287 Iseult and her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had
the grant of the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their
lives from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, which gift presumably represented
her maritagium. Second, Iseult's grandson, Sir James de Audley, is
known to have been a near kinsman of Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh,
which Bartholomew was a great-grandson of Sir Edmund de Mortimer (see
Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, cited above).
Third, the authorities who identify Iseult as a daughter of Sir Edmund
de Mortimer cite a folio in one of the Additional Manuscripts in the
British Library. This source has been incorrectly cited and can not
now be located, although two parties in recent time have looked for it.
My personal guess is that the Additional Manuscripts information shows
that Iseult had the manor in Arley, Staffordshire for life by grant of
Edmund de Mortimer and also that Iseult used a seal with the Mortimer
arms. If this was the information found in this record, then the
natural conclusion would be that Iseult was Edmund's daughter. If so,
this would be a presumption not directly stated in the actual record.
If this record can ever be located, and, if it does directly state that
Iseult was the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer, then she would
necessarily have to have been illegitimate. On the whole, however, it
seems more likely that she was Sir Edmund de Mortimer's legitimate
sister, particularly since her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun, was
the same approximate age as Sir Edmund de Mortimer's father, Roger de
Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Iseult de Mortimer, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 15 mar 2006 19:15:38

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Lockehead ~

Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley, can not possibly have been the daughter
of Sir Edmund de Mortimer, at least not legitimately. Iseult was born
say 1260, and thus was slightly younger than Edmund de Mortimer. She
married (1st) before 1287 Sir Walter de Balun, Knt., of Great Marcle,
Herefordshire, Eastington, Gloucestershire, and Arley, Staffordshire,
and Great Cheverel, Wiltshire.

Why "say 1260" for a girl married (shortly) before 1287? Elsewhere you
have argued for significantly shorter average generation lengths for
females than 27 years - in fact, you have even argued for shorter
generation lengths for males when you wanted it to be so. I would think
"say 1270" would be more in line, and even that could be later, in which
case "slightly younger than Edmund Mortimer" is hardly an accurate
description. (When you intentionally skew someone's age to match the
conclusion you wish to reach, it is hardly surprising when it ends up
'supporting' your conclusion.)

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Iseult de Mortimer, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 mar 2006 20:57:44

My research indicates that Sir Edmund de Mortimer was a churchman until
1282, which makes it impossible for him to be the father of Iseult,
wife of Sir Walter de Balun and Sir Hugh de Audley, at least
legitimately. Yet, Complete Peerage says without ANY DOCUMENTATION
that Iseult was the daughter of Sir Edmund de Mortimer, this in spite
of the fact that Iseult married her first husband before 1286/7, only
five years after Edmund resigned his church office and entered private
life [see C.P. 1 (1910): 347 (sub Audley)]. My research further
indicates that Iseult's first husband, Sir Walter de Balun, was born
circa 1225, making him older than Sir Edmund de Mortimer's father.
This fact is also ignored by Complete Peerage. Suffice to say, for a
woman to marry a man older than her grandfather is a bit unusual.
Lastly, we know that Sir Edmund de Mortimer gave property in Ireland to
his legitimate daughter as her maritagium, whereas he seems to have
only settled a manor for life on Iseult. All of these irregularities
pose serious difficulties.

Mr. Farmerie has stated that Iseult married her first husband, Sir
Walter de Balun, "shortly" before 1287. In truth, we have no direct
knowledge as to when Iseult married Sir Walter, only that they married
before 1286/7 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 347 (sub
Audley)]. They could have married much earlier than 1286/7. Iseult
married her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, "probably in 1288"
[Reference: Ibid.]. We know that this marriage was blessed with at
least three children, the youngest of which, Alice, was married by
license dated 1317. Assuming that Iseult had her last child before
1305, it would put Iseult's birth at approximately 1265. A birthdate
of 1265 for Iseult would virtually preclude her from being the daughter
of Sir Edmund de Mortimer, who we know from other records was born
about 1251-4. In summary, the problems of Iseult being Sir Edmund's
daughter pose very difficult hurdles. As such, I believe it makes
sense to push Iseult back a generation and make her the daughter of
Edmund's father, Sir Roger de Mortimer.

All the same, perhaps it is best that we reserve final judgement on the
matter until the alleged information in Additional Manuscripts cited by
some authorities as evidence that Iseult was Edmund's daughter can be
located and properly examined.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

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