Anglicanized or not

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W David Samuelsen

Anglicanized or not

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 14 mar 2006 22:17:39

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-03/1142364045>

My understanding, is not of titles when it come to of, de, di, von,
etc., rather it is of the places they lived or had, or known in records
as of that place. The "of" is a English version of de, di von, z, ze
de in Spain, Portugal, France, Luxembourg
von in Germanic areas
i in Denmark, Norway and Sweden
di in Italy (should I list it as Italia?)
z in Poland (Polska)
ze in Bohemia (I list as Cechy because I checked and Bohemia is a
English form of Cechy (without the "z")
bol in Hungary (Magyarorszag)
van in Holland & Flemish side of Belgium

I never saw any references to "de Hispania" or "de Ispania", not even
Espana in earlier eras. Only Espana came into use properly after
Ferdinand and Isabella.

I haven't found the Russian counterpart yet. (Kiev is Kviv or Kvyv)
Much less is Byzantium Empire, (the translations for Greek and Russian
kept giving out Cyriliac or Greek rather than roman characters I need in
my record)

Nicknames are not considered the last names at all, in my understanding
for certain families. Much like the Guillaume Tallifers and Isabella
Tallifer who should have never be referred simply as Isabella Tallifer
at all as few pointed out, but correctly as Isabella Taillifer (this
stuck because of records kept referring her as such even it is not
really a surname or even family name), Comtesse d'Angouleme with
additional title of Queen of England.

And if there are nicknames I try to find what the local languagues they
are supposed to be in, which often yielded more surprises.

Anything with Alsace and Lorraine is bad - German or French? That
depends on the preceding 2 ancestors of the persons. Duc de Lorraine or
is it Herzog von Lotharingen? Graf von Eguisheim or Comte d'Eguisheim
(Nordgau prior to at least A.D. 1000) (mind you it is *NOT* Egisheim
which is wrong!)

Holy Roman Empire is a lot worse! nationalities kept shifting between
Germany, Austria, Bohemia and Spain and at one time, Italy.

Flanders is equally bad. Is it that village named Flanders or is it the
historic region of Flanders that is in northern Belgium?

Then there's that one family, are they "von Bayern" or are they "van
Holland" (van Nederlands is not proper one during time of Albrecht I,
Grav van Holland who was also Herzog von Bayern (courtesy of his mother,
Gertrude, Prinzessin von Sachsen)

W. David Samuelsen

Douglas Richardson

Re: Anglicanized or not

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 mar 2006 01:06:07

W David Samuelsen wrote:

I never saw any references to "de Hispania" or "de Ispania", not even
Espana in earlier eras. Only Espana came into use properly after
Ferdinand and Isabella.

I guess you haven't spent any time in English or French records.

Here are two more English citations for you:

(1) Cal.Close Rolls, 1279-1288 (1902): 342 (Alfonsus de Ispannia
styled "kinsman of Queen Eleanor, the King's consort").



DR

Douglas Richardson

Ispania in English records

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 mar 2006 01:17:40

W David Samuelsen wrote:

I never saw any references to "de Hispania" or "de Ispania", not even
Espana in earlier eras. Only Espana came into use properly after
Ferdinand and Isabella.

David,

I guess you haven't spent any time in English or French records.

Here are some more English citations for you:

(1) Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279-1288 (1902): 342 (Alfonsus de Ispannia
styled "kinsman of Queen Eleanor, the King's consort").

(2) Rymer, Fœdera 2(1) (1818): 549 (Philippo Infanti, "nato Regis
Ispaniæ," and Domino Johanni, filio Infantis Johannis de Ispania,
domino Biscaye," both styled "kinsman" of Edward II, King of Edward
["nepoti Regis Angliæ"]; Domino Johanni Manuel, filio domino Infantis
Manuel de Ispania styled "kinsman"and Dominæ Mariæ, quæ fuit
uxor Infantis domini Johannis de Ispania, dominæ de Biscaye, styled
"kinswoman").

(3) Owen, Cat. of Mss. Rel. Wales 3 (Cymmrodorion Recs. 4) (1908):
522-524. C.C.R. 1302-1307 (1908): 83 (Sir Henry de Ispania styled
"cousin" of Edward the king's son [future King Edward II]).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: Ispania in English records

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mar 2006 07:07:13

Dear Newsgroup ~

The third citation in my post this afternoon should have read as
follows:

(3) Cal. of Close Rolls, 1302-1307 (1908): 83 (Sir Henry de Ispania
styled "cousin" of Edward the king's son [future King Edward II]).

The added reference to Owen, Cat. of Mss. Rel. Wales 3 (Cymmrodorion
Recs. 4) (1908): 522-524 was inadvertent.

All three sources which I cited can be found in local libraries in Salt
Lake City, where I presume Mr. Samuelsen resides. A good reference
librarian should be able to guide him to the books in question. I wish
Mr. Samuelsen good luck in his sleuthing.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
W David Samuelsen wrote:

I never saw any references to "de Hispania" or "de Ispania", not even
Espana in earlier eras. Only Espana came into use properly after
Ferdinand and Isabella.

David,

I guess you haven't spent any time in English or French records.

Here are some more English citations for you:

(1) Cal. of Close Rolls, 1279-1288 (1902): 342 (Alfonsus de Ispannia
styled "kinsman of Queen Eleanor, the King's consort").

(2) Rymer, Fœdera 2(1) (1818): 549 (Philippo Infanti, "nato Regis
Ispaniæ," and Domino Johanni, filio Infantis Johannis de Ispania,
domino Biscaye," both styled "kinsman" of Edward II, King of Edward
["nepoti Regis Angliæ"]; Domino Johanni Manuel, filio domino Infantis
Manuel de Ispania styled "kinsman"and Dominæ Mariæ, quæ fuit
uxor Infantis domini Johannis de Ispania, dominæ de Biscaye, styled
"kinswoman").

(3) C.C.R. 1302-1307 (1908): 83 (Sir Henry de Ispania styled
"cousin" of Edward the king's son [future King Edward II]).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

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