Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswo

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswo

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 mar 2006 09:30:58

Having been made aware of Richardson's latest antics I decided to have a
look.

In this case, immediately the two spellings Wablingen and Waiblingen stand
out.

The next question is, where does that name come from? Agnes is not the
daughter of a Lord of Wablingen/Waiblingen. She is a daughter of the Holy
Roman Emperor Heinrich IV.

It would have been interesting had Richardson mentioned when Emperor
Friedrich Barbarossa referred to Richsa. This is important as there are
other aspects to consider.

Never mind what the Latin said, quoted by Richardson, I think in those days
three/quarters of the Iberian peninsula would have been amused to have the
wife of a Count of Provence referred to as Queen of Spain-----she never was.
Spanish Queen, like a Scandinavian Queen which only identifies an area, or a
Queen in Spain? Perhaps. But as she was already married to the Count of
Provence was she still entitled to be called Queen? I am not sure what the
custom was in those days.

In July 1152 Richsza married Alfonso VII King of Castile and Leon who died
in 1157.
Then AFTER 1162 she married Raymond Berengar V Count of Provence who died in
1166
Then AFTER 1166 she married Albrecht Count of Eversberg.

This means that Frederick Barbarossa must have referred to Richsza AFTER
1162 and before 1166, and that narrows it down.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:59 PM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswoman,
Richsza, Queen of Spain


Dear Newsgroup ~

Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa (died 1190) referred to Richsza (or
Richildis), Queen of Spain [Hispaniarum reginæ], wife of Raymond
Berenger V, Count of Provence, as "our kinswoman" [neptis nostræ]
[Reference: Martene & Durand, Veterum scriptorum et monumentorum, 1
(1724): 860-863].

This is yet another straightforward and simple kinship which is typical
of relationships we find noted in the period before 1250. The two
parties were first cousins, or related in the 2nd and 2nd degrees of
kindred, by common descent from Agnes von Wablingen as follows:

1. Agnes von Waiblingen, married (1st) Frederick I, Duke of Swabia.
2. Frederick II, Duke of Swabia, died 1147.
3. Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa, died 1190.

1. Agnes von Waiblingen, married (2nd) Leopold III, Margrave of
Österreich.
2. Agnes of Österreich, married Wladislaw II, Duke of Polen-Schlesien.
3. Richsza of Poland, married (1st) Alphonso VII, King of Castile;
(2nd) Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence; and Albert II, Count of
Evenstein.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net



Sally Laine

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswo

Legg inn av Sally Laine » 14 mar 2006 16:06:13

Was not Waiblingen the name of the lands assigned to Agnes as her dower ?

Sally


Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 2:30 AM
Subject: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswoman,
Richsza, Queen of Spain


Having been made aware of Richardson's latest antics I decided to have a
look.

In this case, immediately the two spellings Wablingen and Waiblingen stand
out.

The next question is, where does that name come from? Agnes is not the
daughter of a Lord of Wablingen/Waiblingen. She is a daughter of the Holy
Roman Emperor Heinrich IV.

It would have been interesting had Richardson mentioned when Emperor
Friedrich Barbarossa referred to Richsa. This is important as there are
other aspects to consider.

Never mind what the Latin said, quoted by Richardson, I think in those
days three/quarters of the Iberian peninsula would have been amused to
have the wife of a Count of Provence referred to as Queen of Spain-----she
never was. Spanish Queen, like a Scandinavian Queen which only identifies
an area, or a Queen in Spain? Perhaps. But as she was already married to
the Count of Provence was she still entitled to be called Queen? I am not
sure what the custom was in those days.

In July 1152 Richsza married Alfonso VII King of Castile and Leon who died
in 1157.
Then AFTER 1162 she married Raymond Berengar V Count of Provence who died
in 1166
Then AFTER 1166 she married Albrecht Count of Eversberg.

This means that Frederick Barbarossa must have referred to Richsza AFTER
1162 and before 1166, and that narrows it down.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:59 PM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswoman,
Richsza, Queen of Spain


Dear Newsgroup ~

Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa (died 1190) referred to Richsza (or
Richildis), Queen of Spain [Hispaniarum reginæ], wife of Raymond
Berenger V, Count of Provence, as "our kinswoman" [neptis nostræ]
[Reference: Martene & Durand, Veterum scriptorum et monumentorum, 1
(1724): 860-863].

This is yet another straightforward and simple kinship which is typical
of relationships we find noted in the period before 1250. The two
parties were first cousins, or related in the 2nd and 2nd degrees of
kindred, by common descent from Agnes von Wablingen as follows:

1. Agnes von Waiblingen, married (1st) Frederick I, Duke of Swabia.
2. Frederick II, Duke of Swabia, died 1147.
3. Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa, died 1190.

1. Agnes von Waiblingen, married (2nd) Leopold III, Margrave of
Österreich.
2. Agnes of Österreich, married Wladislaw II, Duke of Polen-Schlesien.
3. Richsza of Poland, married (1st) Alphonso VII, King of Castile;
(2nd) Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence; and Albert II, Count of
Evenstein.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net






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Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's kinswo

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2006 16:09:36

Not exactly.
In Waiblingen there was the ancestral castle of the Hohenstaufen, Dukes
of Swabia.
Agnes, daughter of Henry IV and sister of Henry V married Frederick,
Duke of Swabia.

Regards
Francisco

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's ki

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 14 mar 2006 19:08:29

Leo van de Pas wrote:

Never mind what the Latin said, quoted by Richardson, I think in those
days three/quarters of the Iberian peninsula would have been amused to
have the wife of a Count of Provence referred to as Queen of
Spain-----she never was. Spanish Queen, like a Scandinavian Queen which
only identifies an area, or a Queen in Spain? Perhaps. But as she was
already married to the Count of Provence was she still entitled to be
called Queen? I am not sure what the custom was in those days.

In fact, the error is in the title, not the place. Alfonso VII, King of
Leon and Castile, considering himself to be the most powerful monarch on
the peninsula, adopted the title that had similarly been used by his
ancestors, including Alfonso III, Sancho III Garces and Alfonso VI, that
of "Emperor of Spain". The title had no weight - it was an example of
self-promotion, but such self-promotion was not unique in an Iberian
context (Ramiro Sanchez, Count of Aragon basically just started calling
himself "king" and so he became). Richeza may have continued to be known
as Empress, even as a (remarried) widow.

(I do wonder why the German form of Austria was used, but the English
form of Castile.)

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's ki

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 14 mar 2006 19:43:12

Dear Newsgroup ~

As best I understand it, family members of the royal Castile family
were known in England and in France as "de Hispania" or "de Ispania,"
not as "of Castile." So the name for King Edward I's queen, Eleanor of
Castile, is a bit of a misnomer. For examples of Queen Eleanor of
Castile's nephew, Master James, being styled "de Hispania," or "de
Ispania," please see Calendar of the Close Rolls, 1279-1288 (1902):
79, 159; Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1272-1307 (1911): 189.

For a French example of "de Ispania," I note that in 1325 Sir Alphonsus
de Yspania, knight, was styled "king's kinsman" [consanguineus regis]
by King Charles IV of France [Reference: Moranville, Chronographia
Regum Francorum, 1 (1891): 289 (citing Arch. nat., KK 1, fol. 787,
dated 30 June 1325). This reference in Moranville's interesting book
can be found through Google Book Search at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... vq=Yspania.


I haven't yet identified Sir Alphonse de Ispania. If someone knows his
identity, I'd appreciate it if they'd post that information here on the
newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa's ki

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2006 22:34:07

Why on earth Yspania from a book of 1891 quoting a document of 1325
becomes Ispania?
I could understand "sir Alphonse of Spain" or "dominus Alfonsus de
Hispania, miles," but "Sir Alphonsus de Yspania" must be a new
language. Richardsonian, perhaps...
Btw my wild guess is that he may prove to be a Alfonso Sánchez.

Regards,
Francisco

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