Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

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Paul K Davis

Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 08 mar 2006 06:18:02

In the process of exploring various DFA possibilities I have encountered
two problematic issues which may have a common solution.

Valenza was the wife of Nicolo Crispo. Through her, both Caterina
Cornaro, queen of Cyprus, and Caterino Zeno, Venetian ambassodor, claimed
descent from the Komnenid emperors at Trebizond. Most references to her
call her "Valenza Comnena" (or Comnenus or Komnena etc.), but the
"Genealogy.EU" web site by Miroslave Marek calls her "Valenza-Eudokia
Megale Komnene" and the "Cornaro Family of Venice" web site by C. I. Gable
calls her "Valenza Comnena Paleologa". She is generaly identified in
sources (including standard reputable sources such as "Grandes Familles de
Grece" by Mihail Dimitri Sturdza) as a daughter of John IV (Megale)
Komnenos, emperor at Trebizond from 1429 to his death in 1460 (called
"Calojoannes"), but this seems to be chronologically impossible. According
to Marek, Valenza and Nicolo married in 1413, which is entirely consistent
with those birth and marriage dates of her offspring which are known.
Calojoannes, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, was probably
born about 1404-5. Marek solves this problem by making her a sister,
rather than daughter, of Calojoannes, but even this is chronologically
tight (though not impossible), since the new father, Alexios IV, was born
in 1382, thus leaving only an average of 16 years for two successive
generations.

The Eudokia to whom I refer (or Evdokia or Eudoxie) was undoubtedly the
daughter of Alexios III, emperor at Trebizond from 1349 till his death in
1390, and his wife Theodora Kantakouzene. As Pierre Aronax has pointed out
previously in this forum (2001 July 31), two independent sources have her
marrying Tadjeddin (or Tajeddin or Taceddin or Ta Jeddin or Tadj Eddin),
emir of Limnia and/or pacha of Sinope, who died in 1386. Afterwards,
according to one chronicle, she married John V Palaiologos, emperor at
Constantinople from 1341 till his death in 1391 (though his authority was
variable due to the civil war of his regents with John VI Kantakouzenos,
and a usurpation discussed below). However, John V Palaiologos is known to
have married Helena, daughter of John VI Kantakouzenos, as part of the
solution to the civil war, and she is known to have survived him. Many
scholars, including Sturdza, have concluded that actually Eudokia married
Constantine Dragas of Serbia, who, like John V Palaiologos, was a
grandfather of the last emperor at Constantinople, supposing that the
chronicler got grandfathers confused. There is apparently no other reason
to believe this marriage.

I suggest the hypothesis that actually Eudokia married John VII
Palaiologos, grandson of John V, briefly emperor at Constantinople in 1390
in opposition to his grandfather, and co-emperor with his uncle Manuel from
1399 till 1403. I further suggest that this couple were the parents of
Valenza. This marriage would have occured probably in 1390, but possibly
any time between 1386, when Eudokia's first husband died, and 1397, when
John VII Palaiologos is known to have married Eugenia Gattilusio.
Eudokia's presumably died by 1397.

This double hypothesis would explain several matters. The chronicle is
explained by assuming the wrong emperor John Palaiologos was mentioned, an
easy mistake, especially since, for a few months, both of them
simultaneously claimed to be emperor. Valenza'a descent from a Trebizond
emperor is explained. The belief that Valenza's father was an emperor
named John is explained. Eudokia is provided with a second husband much
closer to her own age. Valenza is provided with parents who neither
squeeze nor stretch the chronology. The instance of the double surname
"Komnene Palaiolog" for Valenza is explained.

As a nonessential additional hypothesis, I suggest the marriage was
arranged by the Ottoman sultan Bayezid I. Eudokia, as the widow of a
Turkish ruler, would have come under the sultan's control. John VII was
being pushed as a usurper onto the throne of his grandfather, John V, by
the sultan. It is quite sensible that the Bayezid, in order to further
support John VII's usurpation, would have provided him with a suitable
empress, and Eudokia was available and fit the bill.

Additionally, in 1413, after John VII's death in 1408, the reigning
emperor at Constantinople, Manuel II Palaiologos, the uncle of John VII and
a son of John V and Helena, could have found it useful to marry Valenza
into a family sufficiently noble for her, but without any claim to the
imperial throne. Nicolo Crispo, Venetian patrician and lord of the Greek
island of Santorini, fits this bill.

[Caution: some numbering systems omit the John Palaiologos whom I call
"VII", so that the next-to-last emperor, usually called John VIII, is then
called John VII.]

I have not yet been able to trace down all the original source material,
or even some important secondary articles bearing on the subject. Since
I'm unsure of accomplishing a proper thorough investigation if these
hypotheses, I offer them to the group for comments.


-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Akrogiali

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 08 mar 2006 06:44:22

The name Valenca fooled too many people.
It does not matter which way you look at it, the name is neither Greek nor
Greek Orthodox (there is no saint called Valenca). Further more, there are
NO other Greek ladies called Valenza or Valenca or man if you wish called
Valenco or Valenzo.
That can only mean one think. Ladin origin/descent.
She married a Latin. By dropping the name "Eudokia" which is fictitious in
this case, you imply one of two things.
1. She was Latin (Valenza) and was Baptised Eudokia to Marry a Greek. or
2. Her name was Eudokia and was changed to Valenza.

Both are not possible.
The simple answer is: A misunderstanding. She is neither a member of the
Megas-Kamninos family nor a member of the Palaiologos family. (By the way,
this has been discussed numerous times around the world but to my knowledge,
it is the first time the Word "Palaiologos" appears.

If she indeed lived in the Palace in Trapezond, the only other explanation
is that her parents died and she was "adopted" to live in the palace until
getting married.
No to mentioned that she was born almost the same year as Kallogiannis
taking into account that she married about 1424.


""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200633851631412@earthlink.net...
In the process of exploring various DFA possibilities I have encountered
two problematic issues which may have a common solution.

Valenza was the wife of Nicolo Crispo. Through her, both Caterina
Cornaro, queen of Cyprus, and Caterino Zeno, Venetian ambassodor, claimed
descent from the Komnenid emperors at Trebizond. Most references to her
call her "Valenza Comnena" (or Comnenus or Komnena etc.), but the
"Genealogy.EU" web site by Miroslave Marek calls her "Valenza-Eudokia
Megale Komnene" and the "Cornaro Family of Venice" web site by C. I. Gable
calls her "Valenza Comnena Paleologa". She is generaly identified in
sources (including standard reputable sources such as "Grandes Familles de
Grece" by Mihail Dimitri Sturdza) as a daughter of John IV (Megale)
Komnenos, emperor at Trebizond from 1429 to his death in 1460 (called
"Calojoannes"), but this seems to be chronologically impossible.
According
to Marek, Valenza and Nicolo married in 1413, which is entirely consistent
with those birth and marriage dates of her offspring which are known.
Calojoannes, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, was probably
born about 1404-5. Marek solves this problem by making her a sister,
rather than daughter, of Calojoannes, but even this is chronologically
tight (though not impossible), since the new father, Alexios IV, was born
in 1382, thus leaving only an average of 16 years for two successive
generations.

The Eudokia to whom I refer (or Evdokia or Eudoxie) was undoubtedly the
daughter of Alexios III, emperor at Trebizond from 1349 till his death in
1390, and his wife Theodora Kantakouzene. As Pierre Aronax has pointed
out
previously in this forum (2001 July 31), two independent sources have her
marrying Tadjeddin (or Tajeddin or Taceddin or Ta Jeddin or Tadj Eddin),
emir of Limnia and/or pacha of Sinope, who died in 1386. Afterwards,
according to one chronicle, she married John V Palaiologos, emperor at
Constantinople from 1341 till his death in 1391 (though his authority was
variable due to the civil war of his regents with John VI Kantakouzenos,
and a usurpation discussed below). However, John V Palaiologos is known
to
have married Helena, daughter of John VI Kantakouzenos, as part of the
solution to the civil war, and she is known to have survived him. Many
scholars, including Sturdza, have concluded that actually Eudokia married
Constantine Dragas of Serbia, who, like John V Palaiologos, was a
grandfather of the last emperor at Constantinople, supposing that the
chronicler got grandfathers confused. There is apparently no other reason
to believe this marriage.

I suggest the hypothesis that actually Eudokia married John VII
Palaiologos, grandson of John V, briefly emperor at Constantinople in 1390
in opposition to his grandfather, and co-emperor with his uncle Manuel
from
1399 till 1403. I further suggest that this couple were the parents of
Valenza. This marriage would have occured probably in 1390, but possibly
any time between 1386, when Eudokia's first husband died, and 1397, when
John VII Palaiologos is known to have married Eugenia Gattilusio.
Eudokia's presumably died by 1397.

This double hypothesis would explain several matters. The chronicle is
explained by assuming the wrong emperor John Palaiologos was mentioned, an
easy mistake, especially since, for a few months, both of them
simultaneously claimed to be emperor. Valenza'a descent from a Trebizond
emperor is explained. The belief that Valenza's father was an emperor
named John is explained. Eudokia is provided with a second husband much
closer to her own age. Valenza is provided with parents who neither
squeeze nor stretch the chronology. The instance of the double surname
"Komnene Palaiolog" for Valenza is explained.

As a nonessential additional hypothesis, I suggest the marriage was
arranged by the Ottoman sultan Bayezid I. Eudokia, as the widow of a
Turkish ruler, would have come under the sultan's control. John VII was
being pushed as a usurper onto the throne of his grandfather, John V, by
the sultan. It is quite sensible that the Bayezid, in order to further
support John VII's usurpation, would have provided him with a suitable
empress, and Eudokia was available and fit the bill.

Additionally, in 1413, after John VII's death in 1408, the reigning
emperor at Constantinople, Manuel II Palaiologos, the uncle of John VII
and
a son of John V and Helena, could have found it useful to marry Valenza
into a family sufficiently noble for her, but without any claim to the
imperial throne. Nicolo Crispo, Venetian patrician and lord of the Greek
island of Santorini, fits this bill.

[Caution: some numbering systems omit the John Palaiologos whom I call
"VII", so that the next-to-last emperor, usually called John VIII, is then
called John VII.]

I have not yet been able to trace down all the original source material,
or even some important secondary articles bearing on the subject. Since
I'm unsure of accomplishing a proper thorough investigation if these
hypotheses, I offer them to the group for comments.


-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

joe

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av joe » 08 mar 2006 16:41:16

By dropping the name "Eudokia" which is fictitious in
this case, you imply one of two things.
1. She was Latin (Valenza) and was Baptised Eudokia to Marry a Greek. or
2. Her name was Eudokia and was changed to Valenza.

Both are not possible.

Why do you say neither are possible? Perhaps the next step is to find
the original source of the form of the name being "Valenza-Eudokia
Megale Komnene" and see what context this derives from.

Akrogiali

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 08 mar 2006 22:05:53

Neither is possible because she did not marry a Greek, she married a Latin.
and because the Catholic Church does not require a Baptism for the marriage
of a Greek with a Latin ONLY the Orthodox Church demands that both partners
are Baptized as Greek Orthodox.

Also Caterina Cornaro, never claim descent from the Komninos or any other
Greek Aristocratic family.

I should also point out that:
Valenza married Niccolo Crispo (as already mentioned) and had two children:
Fiorenza and Valenza. Notice that both names are LATIN and NONE of those
exists in any of the aristocratic families of Constantinople. In Greece, the
first daughter has the name of the father's mother and the second daughter
has the name of the mother's mother. It is extremely uncommon in Greece to
name a daughter after the mother..

Offcourse Fiorenza married Marco Cornaro, the father of Caterina (Queen of
Cyprus) and Giorgio.

I can not see how she can or could be Greek.



"joe" <joeycook@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1141832476.283885.198840@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
By dropping the name "Eudokia" which is fictitious in
this case, you imply one of two things.
1. She was Latin (Valenza) and was Baptised Eudokia to Marry a Greek. or
2. Her name was Eudokia and was changed to Valenza.

Both are not possible.

Why do you say neither are possible? Perhaps the next step is to find
the original source of the form of the name being "Valenza-Eudokia
Megale Komnene" and see what context this derives from.

Akrogiali

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 08 mar 2006 23:06:32

According
to Marek, Valenza and Nicolo married in 1413, which is entirely consistent
with those birth and marriage dates of her offspring which are known.

Also the above claim is "silly" to say the least.

She married approximately in 1424; Her daughter Fiorenza was born
approximatelly 1428 and her daughter Valenza was born About 1430

Fiorenza married Marco Corner 1444; and Valenza married Giovanni Loredan in
1446.

This Loredan MAY have had a relationship with the Palaiologos family if he
is related to the Alvise Loredan the Venetian Admiral. He, Alvise, claims
that he was a cousin to the Despot of Morea, and offered the Lordship of
Lemnos to Andronicos Palaiologos.



""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200633851631412@earthlink.net...
In the process of exploring various DFA possibilities I have encountered
two problematic issues which may have a common solution.

Valenza was the wife of Nicolo Crispo. Through her, both Caterina
Cornaro, queen of Cyprus, and Caterino Zeno, Venetian ambassodor, claimed
descent from the Komnenid emperors at Trebizond. Most references to her
call her "Valenza Comnena" (or Comnenus or Komnena etc.), but the
"Genealogy.EU" web site by Miroslave Marek calls her "Valenza-Eudokia
Megale Komnene" and the "Cornaro Family of Venice" web site by C. I. Gable
calls her "Valenza Comnena Paleologa". She is generaly identified in
sources (including standard reputable sources such as "Grandes Familles de
Grece" by Mihail Dimitri Sturdza) as a daughter of John IV (Megale)
Komnenos, emperor at Trebizond from 1429 to his death in 1460 (called
"Calojoannes"), but this seems to be chronologically impossible.
Calojoannes, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, was probably
born about 1404-5. Marek solves this problem by making her a sister,
rather than daughter, of Calojoannes, but even this is chronologically
tight (though not impossible), since the new father, Alexios IV, was born
in 1382, thus leaving only an average of 16 years for two successive
generations.

The Eudokia to whom I refer (or Evdokia or Eudoxie) was undoubtedly the
daughter of Alexios III, emperor at Trebizond from 1349 till his death in
1390, and his wife Theodora Kantakouzene. As Pierre Aronax has pointed
out
previously in this forum (2001 July 31), two independent sources have her
marrying Tadjeddin (or Tajeddin or Taceddin or Ta Jeddin or Tadj Eddin),
emir of Limnia and/or pacha of Sinope, who died in 1386. Afterwards,
according to one chronicle, she married John V Palaiologos, emperor at
Constantinople from 1341 till his death in 1391 (though his authority was
variable due to the civil war of his regents with John VI Kantakouzenos,
and a usurpation discussed below). However, John V Palaiologos is known
to
have married Helena, daughter of John VI Kantakouzenos, as part of the
solution to the civil war, and she is known to have survived him. Many
scholars, including Sturdza, have concluded that actually Eudokia married
Constantine Dragas of Serbia, who, like John V Palaiologos, was a
grandfather of the last emperor at Constantinople, supposing that the
chronicler got grandfathers confused. There is apparently no other reason
to believe this marriage.

I suggest the hypothesis that actually Eudokia married John VII
Palaiologos, grandson of John V, briefly emperor at Constantinople in 1390
in opposition to his grandfather, and co-emperor with his uncle Manuel
from
1399 till 1403. I further suggest that this couple were the parents of
Valenza. This marriage would have occured probably in 1390, but possibly
any time between 1386, when Eudokia's first husband died, and 1397, when
John VII Palaiologos is known to have married Eugenia Gattilusio.
Eudokia's presumably died by 1397.

This double hypothesis would explain several matters. The chronicle is
explained by assuming the wrong emperor John Palaiologos was mentioned, an
easy mistake, especially since, for a few months, both of them
simultaneously claimed to be emperor. Valenza'a descent from a Trebizond
emperor is explained. The belief that Valenza's father was an emperor
named John is explained. Eudokia is provided with a second husband much
closer to her own age. Valenza is provided with parents who neither
squeeze nor stretch the chronology. The instance of the double surname
"Komnene Palaiolog" for Valenza is explained.

As a nonessential additional hypothesis, I suggest the marriage was
arranged by the Ottoman sultan Bayezid I. Eudokia, as the widow of a
Turkish ruler, would have come under the sultan's control. John VII was
being pushed as a usurper onto the throne of his grandfather, John V, by
the sultan. It is quite sensible that the Bayezid, in order to further
support John VII's usurpation, would have provided him with a suitable
empress, and Eudokia was available and fit the bill.

Additionally, in 1413, after John VII's death in 1408, the reigning
emperor at Constantinople, Manuel II Palaiologos, the uncle of John VII
and
a son of John V and Helena, could have found it useful to marry Valenza
into a family sufficiently noble for her, but without any claim to the
imperial throne. Nicolo Crispo, Venetian patrician and lord of the Greek
island of Santorini, fits this bill.

[Caution: some numbering systems omit the John Palaiologos whom I call
"VII", so that the next-to-last emperor, usually called John VIII, is then
called John VII.]

I have not yet been able to trace down all the original source material,
or even some important secondary articles bearing on the subject. Since
I'm unsure of accomplishing a proper thorough investigation if these
hypotheses, I offer them to the group for comments.


-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 09 mar 2006 01:30:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "joe" <joeycook@mail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis


| > By dropping the name "Eudokia" which is fictitious in
| > this case, you imply one of two things.
| > 1. She was Latin (Valenza) and was Baptised Eudokia to Marry a Greek. or
| > 2. Her name was Eudokia and was changed to Valenza.
| >
| > Both are not possible.
|
| Why do you say neither are possible?


He didn't say, 'neither are possible'. He said, 'Both are not possible.' Well, duh! One was either christened E, and became V, or one was christened V, and became E.


Perhaps the next step is to find
| the original source of the form of the name being "Valenza-Eudokia
| Megale Komnene" and see what context this derives from.

Might 'Valenza' have been 'Valenzia' or 'Valencia'? It is also possible that the infix, 'i', would be dropped, to create a name that might, seemingly, be the 'original' for Valencia, (the province), as 'Julus' was the original for 'Julius', 'Alexandra' for 'Alexandria', 'Persa' for 'Persia', 'Galla' for 'Gallia', 'Tarquina' for 'Tarquinius', etc.?
I use Alexandra, Persa and Galla, because cities, nations and polities are feminine; so that class would have taken the feminine form for their names. Persa is, of course, the _mythical_ derivation of the name, from the Greek theory that the kings of same were descended from a son of Perseus. There is no historicity behind it, but the linguistics would still be valid.
O' course, if the name is pure prevarication, it matters not.
Ford

'The end is what the means have made it.'
--John Morley, Critical Miscellanies

'There never was a good war, nor a bad peace'
- Benjamin Franklin

'War does not determine who is right; only who is left.'
- Prof. Bertrand Earl Russell

'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'

Akrogiali

Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 09 mar 2006 03:18:25

One was either christened E, and became V, or one was christened V, and
became E.
That does not make any sense. I guess when you say "Christened" you mean

"Baptized".
You can not be Baptized Maria and be called Carla.

Might 'Valenza' have been 'Valenzia' or 'Valencia'? It is also possible
that the infix, 'i', would be dropped, to create a name that might,
seemingly, be the 'original' for Valencia, (the province), as 'Julus' was
the original for 'Julius', 'Alexandra' for 'Alexandria', 'Persa' for
'Persia', 'Galla' for 'Gallia', 'Tarquina' for 'Tarquinius', etc.?

I do not understand the above either.
Do you agree that the name Valenza is not Greek or not?
The name Valence is Latin and existed before Valencia did, if you refer to
the Spanish city.
By the way, If I am not mistaken "Galla" derives from the Greek word Gallini
and exists as a name in Russia Orthodox religion.

regards

""Ford Mommaerts-Browne"" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:004701c64311$8b07ff60$6b3afc18@om.cox.net...
----- Original Message -----
From: "joe" <joeycook@mail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Valenza & Eudokia - a Komnen-Palaiolog hypothesis


| > By dropping the name "Eudokia" which is fictitious in
| > this case, you imply one of two things.
| > 1. She was Latin (Valenza) and was Baptised Eudokia to Marry a Greek.
or
| > 2. Her name was Eudokia and was changed to Valenza.
|
| > Both are not possible.
|
| Why do you say neither are possible?


He didn't say, 'neither are possible'. He said, 'Both are not possible.'
Well, duh!


Perhaps the next step is to find
| the original source of the form of the name being "Valenza-Eudokia
| Megale Komnene" and see what context this derives from.

Might 'Valenza' have been 'Valenzia' or 'Valencia'? It is also possible
that the infix, 'i', would be dropped, to create a name that might,
seemingly, be the 'original' for Valencia, (the province), as 'Julus' was
the original for 'Julius', 'Alexandra' for 'Alexandria', 'Persa' for
'Persia', 'Galla' for 'Gallia', 'Tarquina' for 'Tarquinius', etc.?
I use Alexandra, Persa and Galla, because cities, nations and polities are
feminine; so that class would have taken the feminine form for their
names. Persa is, of course, the _mythical_ derivation of the name, from
the Greek theory that the kings of same were descended from a son of
Perseus. There is no historicity behind it, but the linguistics would
still be valid.
O' course, if the name is pure prevarication, it matters not.
Ford

'The end is what the means have made it.'
--John Morley, Critical Miscellanies

'There never was a good war, nor a bad peace'
- Benjamin Franklin

'War does not determine who is right; only who is left.'
- Prof. Bertrand Earl Russell

'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'

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