C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274), o
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274), o
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 12q39/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215.
It is interesting that Robert de Courtenay should be found as a witness
to a charter for Richard de Camville, as Maud (______) (de Mowbray) de
Courtenay is traditionally thought have been a daughter of Richard de
Camville. If this is the same Richard de Camville whose charter is
found below, then Complete Peerage is in error to state he died without
issue, as this Richard de Camville was survived by at least one
daughter and heiress, Idoine, wife of William Longespee the younger,
which Idoine came of age in 1233. Reviewing the chronology, it appears
that Idoine and Maud were about the same age, and, as such, could well
have been sisters. If Maud died without issue, then her share of the
Camville estates would have passed to Idoine. Whatever the case, it
seems doubtful that John de Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by
various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 12q39/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215.
It is interesting that Robert de Courtenay should be found as a witness
to a charter for Richard de Camville, as Maud (______) (de Mowbray) de
Courtenay is traditionally thought have been a daughter of Richard de
Camville. If this is the same Richard de Camville whose charter is
found below, then Complete Peerage is in error to state he died without
issue, as this Richard de Camville was survived by at least one
daughter and heiress, Idoine, wife of William Longespee the younger,
which Idoine came of age in 1233. Reviewing the chronology, it appears
that Idoine and Maud were about the same age, and, as such, could well
have been sisters. If Maud died without issue, then her share of the
Camville estates would have passed to Idoine. Whatever the case, it
seems doubtful that John de Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by
various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I stated that that Maud, wife of Nele de
Mowbray and John de Courtenay, might possibly be the daughter of
Richard de Camville, of Middleton (in Middleton Stoney), Oxfordshire,
which Richard diied about 1225. I stated this because Complete Peerage
said it is traditionally believed that Maud was a daughter of a Richard
de Camville. Checking my files, however, I find that this parentage
for Maud is impossible, as this Richard de Camville's wife, Eustache
Basset, was a first cousin of Maud's 2nd husband, John de Courtenay.
Thus, any child of Eustache Basset's would be related far too close to
John de Courtenay for an intermarriage between the families to take
place.
However, I find there was another Richard de Camville in the preceding
generation who could fit the bill to be Maud's father. His existence
is proven by a charter issued in 1176-1183 by Gerard de Camville
(father of Richard above who died c.1225), which is witnessed by
Gerard's brothers, Walter, William, and Richard de Camville. The
history of this earlier Richard de Camville has always seemed to be a
bit muddled in the secondary sources to me. If anyone has any
information on this individual, I'd appreciate if if they would post
what information they have here on the newsgroup.
If Maud's father really was a Richard de Camville, then for Maud to be
niece to Bishop Hugh de Pateshulle, her mother would necessarily be a
daughter of Bishop Hugh's father, Simon de Pateshulle (d. c. 1216), of
Patishall, Northamptonshire, a prominent judge in the reigns of Kings
Richard I and John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
Reference: DR10/194
Date: 1176-1183
Physical characteristics: Parchment, 7½ x 5¼ ins.
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester,
confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the monks of the Cistercian
order there serving God, the gift which his father Richard de Camvilla
made to the said abbey, namely the whole land of Smita to found an
abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne and other appurtenances in
wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land and water, in meadows and
pastures, and in free alms quit from all earthly service and secular
exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de Camvill'
his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla.
Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note: For date and seal, see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
pg. 8..
In my post earlier today, I stated that that Maud, wife of Nele de
Mowbray and John de Courtenay, might possibly be the daughter of
Richard de Camville, of Middleton (in Middleton Stoney), Oxfordshire,
which Richard diied about 1225. I stated this because Complete Peerage
said it is traditionally believed that Maud was a daughter of a Richard
de Camville. Checking my files, however, I find that this parentage
for Maud is impossible, as this Richard de Camville's wife, Eustache
Basset, was a first cousin of Maud's 2nd husband, John de Courtenay.
Thus, any child of Eustache Basset's would be related far too close to
John de Courtenay for an intermarriage between the families to take
place.
However, I find there was another Richard de Camville in the preceding
generation who could fit the bill to be Maud's father. His existence
is proven by a charter issued in 1176-1183 by Gerard de Camville
(father of Richard above who died c.1225), which is witnessed by
Gerard's brothers, Walter, William, and Richard de Camville. The
history of this earlier Richard de Camville has always seemed to be a
bit muddled in the secondary sources to me. If anyone has any
information on this individual, I'd appreciate if if they would post
what information they have here on the newsgroup.
If Maud's father really was a Richard de Camville, then for Maud to be
niece to Bishop Hugh de Pateshulle, her mother would necessarily be a
daughter of Bishop Hugh's father, Simon de Pateshulle (d. c. 1216), of
Patishall, Northamptonshire, a prominent judge in the reigns of Kings
Richard I and John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
Reference: DR10/194
Date: 1176-1183
Physical characteristics: Parchment, 7½ x 5¼ ins.
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester,
confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the monks of the Cistercian
order there serving God, the gift which his father Richard de Camvilla
made to the said abbey, namely the whole land of Smita to found an
abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne and other appurtenances in
wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land and water, in meadows and
pastures, and in free alms quit from all earthly service and secular
exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de Camvill'
his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla.
Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note: For date and seal, see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
pg. 8..
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I stated that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray
and John de Courtenay, might possibly be the daughter of Richard de
Camville, of Middleton (in Middleton Stoney), Oxfordshire, which
Richard died about 1225. I stated this because Complete Peerage said
it is traditionally believed that Maud was a daughter of a Richard
de Camville. Checking my files, however, I find that this parentage
for Maud is impossible, as this Richard de Camville's wife, Eustache
Basset, was a first cousin of Maud's 2nd husband, John de Courtenay.
Thus, any child of Eustache Basset's would be related far too close to
John de Courtenay for an intermarriage between the families to take
place.
However, I find there was another Richard de Camville in the preceding
generation who could fit the bill to be Maud's father. His existence
is proven by a charter issued in 1176-1183 by Gerard de Camville
(father of Richard above who died c.1225), which charter is witnessed
by Gerard's brothers, Walter, William, and Richard de Camville. Please
see below for an abstract of this charter. The history of this earlier
Richard de Camville has always seemed to be a bit muddled in the
secondary sources to me. If anyone has any information on this
individual, I'd appreciate if if they would post what information they
have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
Reference: DR10/194
Date: 1176-1183
Physical characteristics: Parchment, 7½ x 5¼ ins.
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester,
confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the monks of the Cistercian
order there serving God, the gift which his father Richard de Camvilla
made to the said abbey, namely the whole land of Smita to found an
abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne and other appurtenances in
wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land and water, in meadows and
pastures, and in free alms quit from all earthly service and secular
exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de Camvill'
his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla.
Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note: For date and seal, see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
pg. 8.
In my post earlier today, I stated that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray
and John de Courtenay, might possibly be the daughter of Richard de
Camville, of Middleton (in Middleton Stoney), Oxfordshire, which
Richard died about 1225. I stated this because Complete Peerage said
it is traditionally believed that Maud was a daughter of a Richard
de Camville. Checking my files, however, I find that this parentage
for Maud is impossible, as this Richard de Camville's wife, Eustache
Basset, was a first cousin of Maud's 2nd husband, John de Courtenay.
Thus, any child of Eustache Basset's would be related far too close to
John de Courtenay for an intermarriage between the families to take
place.
However, I find there was another Richard de Camville in the preceding
generation who could fit the bill to be Maud's father. His existence
is proven by a charter issued in 1176-1183 by Gerard de Camville
(father of Richard above who died c.1225), which charter is witnessed
by Gerard's brothers, Walter, William, and Richard de Camville. Please
see below for an abstract of this charter. The history of this earlier
Richard de Camville has always seemed to be a bit muddled in the
secondary sources to me. If anyone has any information on this
individual, I'd appreciate if if they would post what information they
have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
Reference: DR10/194
Date: 1176-1183
Physical characteristics: Parchment, 7½ x 5¼ ins.
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester,
confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the monks of the Cistercian
order there serving God, the gift which his father Richard de Camvilla
made to the said abbey, namely the whole land of Smita to found an
abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne and other appurtenances in
wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land and water, in meadows and
pastures, and in free alms quit from all earthly service and secular
exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de Camvill'
his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla.
Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note: For date and seal, see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
pg. 8.
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Douglas,
The quotation you give from CP mentions a tradition of her being a
daughter of Roger, not Richard de Camville. Is that just a typo?
-Matthew
Douglas Richardson wrote:
(edited to just this one matter)
The quotation you give from CP mentions a tradition of her being a
daughter of Roger, not Richard de Camville. Is that just a typo?
-Matthew
Douglas Richardson wrote:
(edited to just this one matter)
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray)
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue.
It is interesting that Robert de Courtenay should be found as a witness
to a charter for Richard de Camville, as Maud (______) (de Mowbray) de
Courtenay is traditionally thought have been a daughter of Richard de
Camville. If this is the same Richard de Camville whose charter is
found below, then Complete Peerage is in error to state he died without
issue, as this Richard de Camville was survived by at least one
daughter and heiress, Idoine, wife of William Longespee the younger,
which Idoine came of age in 1233.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Thanks, Matthew. Yes, I erred on that one. Mea culpa. I appreciate
you catching the error in my posts.
I re-checked Complete Peerage just now and it states that it was a
tradition that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray, was the daughter of Roger
de Camville, not Richard de Camville. The confusion of the two names
(Roger vs. Richard) was mine. I wrote this post over three days (which
is not the norm), in order to determine whether or not John de
Courtenay of Okehampton, Devon was born before 1224.
I have no particulars regarding this Roger de Camville. Do you? I
wonder if Richard de Camville is intended anyway?
DR
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
you catching the error in my posts.
I re-checked Complete Peerage just now and it states that it was a
tradition that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray, was the daughter of Roger
de Camville, not Richard de Camville. The confusion of the two names
(Roger vs. Richard) was mine. I wrote this post over three days (which
is not the norm), in order to determine whether or not John de
Courtenay of Okehampton, Devon was born before 1224.
I have no particulars regarding this Roger de Camville. Do you? I
wonder if Richard de Camville is intended anyway?
DR
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Dear Douglas,
The quotation you give from CP mentions a tradition of her being a
daughter of Roger, not Richard de Camville. Is that just a typo?
-Matthew
Douglas Richardson wrote:
(edited to just this one matter)
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray)
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 12q39/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 12q39/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by Maud
(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the Courtenay
family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his Soul,
and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he gave to
the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx acres; and
quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in their Woods
at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556 b. n. 10 & 557
a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by Maud
(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the Courtenay
family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his Soul,
and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he gave to
the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx acres; and
quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in their Woods
at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556 b. n. 10 & 557
a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 1239/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by Maud
(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the Courtenay
family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his Soul,
and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he gave to
the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx acres; and
quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in their Woods
at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556 b. n. 10 & 557
a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 1239/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
-
Kevan Barton
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Try Hurst, Berks., or Old Hurst, Hunts.
Cheers,
Kevan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274), of
Okehampton, Devon [Revised Post]
Cheers,
Kevan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274), of
Okehampton, Devon [Revised Post]
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by Maud
(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the Courtenay
family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his Soul,
and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he gave to
the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx acres; and
quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in their Woods
at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556 b. n. 10 & 557
a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 1239/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.
-
Renia
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Douglas Richardson wrote:
I would make a guess this refers to what is now known as Hurstpierpoint
in Sussex, which has Templar connections.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SSX/ ... /index.php
Not much historical info there, but it was (and is) known as Hurst. The
Pierpoint refers to the Norman family who held it. Whether there was
ever an east and west Hurst, I do not know.
http://www.southernlife.org.uk/sussex/h ... rpoint.htm
But there may be other contenders for your locations.
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
I would make a guess this refers to what is now known as Hurstpierpoint
in Sussex, which has Templar connections.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SSX/ ... /index.php
Not much historical info there, but it was (and is) known as Hurst. The
Pierpoint refers to the Norman family who held it. Whether there was
ever an east and west Hurst, I do not know.
http://www.southernlife.org.uk/sussex/h ... rpoint.htm
But there may be other contenders for your locations.
-
CE Wood
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Let us not overlook "Hirst". There are several, including Temple Hirst
which is 0.6 miles from Hirst Courtney, West Riding, Yorkshire.
CE Wood
Douglas Richardson wrote:
which is 0.6 miles from Hirst Courtney, West Riding, Yorkshire.
CE Wood
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by Maud
(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the Courtenay
family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his Soul,
and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he gave to
the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx acres; and
quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in their Woods
at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556 b. n. 10 & 557
a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) states that John de
Courtenay (died 3 May 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, was married to
Isabel de Vere, daughter of Hugh de Vere, Earl of Oxford, by which
marriage he was the father of Hugh de Courtenay, died 1292. That
information is correct.
It appears, however, John de Courtenay had a little noticed first
marriage to Maud (_____), widow of Nele de Mowbray (died 1230), which
marriage is mentioned in Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray)
as follows:
"[Nele de Mowbray] married Maud, whose parentage is not known. He died
without issue in 1230. The marriage of Maud his widow was granted, 2
October 1230, for £500 to Ralph Fitz-Nicholas, the King's steward, for
one of his sons. Dower was assigned to her on 10 Nov., and on 21 July
1232 she had licence not to marry or to marry where she pleased among
the King's lieges. She married before 2 January 1233/4, John de
Courtenay. She died before 6 October 1240." END OF QUOTE
There is a document in the Patent Rolls in which Maud, widow of Nele de
Mowbray, is identified as the niece of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent:
"Date: 3 Februday 1233. Promise to R. bishop of Cycestre, the
chancellor, and W. bishop of Carlisle, who are pledged for Hugh de
Pateshull to Hubert de Burgo in 300 marks, whereby the said Hugh made
fine with Hubert for Maud de Mubray late the wife of Nigel de Mowbray,
niece of the said Hubert, to marry whomsoever she would, or to live
without a husband if she would, to hold the said bishops harmless
touching the said money, which by the king's order the said Hugh
surrendered to the king, when he took into his hands the custody of the
lands of the said Nigel. The like to the said Hugh to save him
harmless touching the said fine against the said Hubert and his heirs
and all others." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-`1247
(1906): 10].
Although the above document clearly states that Maud was the niece of
Hubert de Burgh, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375, footnote c (sub
Mowbray) indicates that Maud, wife of Nele de Mowbray and John de
Courtenay, was more likely the niece of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull:
"The tradition that she was daughter of Roger de Canville is without
foundation, for he died without issue. The rendering in Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-47, p. 10, of an entry recording that Hugh de Pateshull
gave Hubert de Burgh 300 marks so that Maud [late wife] of Nele de
Mowbray should not marry unless she pleased, extends neptis dicti H. as
niece of the said Hubert, without warrant, and probably inaccurately.
Hugh de Pateshill is described as avunculus of Maud [Excerpt. e Rot.
Fin., vol. i, p. 233], and ordinary interpretation following on the
facts would make Hugh appear to be the correct extension of the H. in
the Patent Roll. Hugh de Pateshull was elected Bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield, Jan. 1239/40, and was then the King's Treasurer." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it seems that John de Courtenay's first wife, Maud, was the niece
of Bishop Hugh de Pateshull, not of Earl Hubert de Burgh. For further
references to John de Courtenay and his wife, Maud, see Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1231-1234 (1905): 361, which shows that Maud, widow of
Nele de Mowbray and then wife of John de Courtenay, held Westwod
[county not specified] in dower in 1234, and, Calendar of Close Rolls,
1234-1237 (1909): 520, which indicates that John and Maud were
defendants in a lawsuit in Yorkshire in 1237. It it not known if Maud
had any children by her marriage to John de Courtenay. Her marriage to
Nele de Mowbray was certainly childless, as his brother, Roger de
Mowbray (died 1266), was his heir.
In summary, Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 465 (sub Courtenay) needs to
be amended to show that Isabel de Vere was the 2nd wife of John de
Courtenay. And, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 375 (sub Mowbray) needs
to be amended to show that Maud, widow of Nele de Mowbray, married as
his 1st wife, John de Courtenay, died 1274, of Okehampton, Devon.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from John de Courtenay (died
1274), by his second wife, Isabel de Vere:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles
Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William
Clopton, Anne Cordray, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Frances Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John
Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Anne Humphrey,
Corderoy, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund Jennings,
Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William
Randolph, Edward Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary
Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret
Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt,
George Yate.
For the links between the immigrants and John de Courtenay (died 1274),
please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
One final note: Just before posting the message above, I encountered
various undocumented claims in online sources and also in the newsgroup
archives that John de Courtenay, the subject of this post, was born in
1224, which date is not mentioned by Complete Peerage. Assuming a 1224
birthdate for John de Courtenay can be sustained, then obviously he
would not be the same individual who was the 2nd husband of Maud
(_____) de Mowbray mentioned above.
My research, however, indicates that John de Courtenay's father, Sir
Robert de Courtenay, witnessed a charter in the period, 1215-1225, with
his younger son, William (see copy of abstract of charter below). If
William was at least age 15 in 1225, this can only mean that his older
brother, John de Courtenay, was born sometime prior to 1210. Also,
I've learned that John's sister, Hawise de Courtenay, was married in or
before 1230, and had a child in 1235, which suggests that Hawise was
born about 1215. Given these factors, it seems doubtful that John de
Courtenay was born in 1224 as claimed by various undocumented sources.
It is interesting that Sir Robert de Courtenay should be found as a
witness to a charter for Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of
Middleton, Oxfordshire [see below], as Complete Peerage indicates that
Sir Robert's son, John de Courtenay's wife, Maud (______) de Mowbray,
is traditionally thought have been a daughter of a certain Roger de
Canville. Richard de Canville (died c. 1225), of Middleton was married
to Eustache Basset, the niece of Sir Robert de Courtenay. Thus, there
was already a connection between the Courtenay and Canville families
before John de Courtenay married Maud (_____) de Mowbray. If anyone
has particulars regarding Roger de Canville, I'd appreciated it if they
would post what information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/K/4/15/1.
Date: c.1215 x 1225.
Richard son of Gerard de Canvilla has confirmed to Hubert Fitz Richard
his steward, all of Hubert's lands in Richard's vill of Middleton,
Oxfordshire, and further has granted to Hubert his mill and fishpond in
the same vill. Witnesses: Robert Curtenay, William his son, Thomas
de... villa, Roger de Stigwand, Henry de Rokebi,... de [Can]villa, Adam
Boscher, Simon the carter (carectarius), Richard de Hortun, Thomas Deu,
Alan de Stigwant.