Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of RobertA
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
The extracted IGI gives the baptism, 5 May 1643, at St. Clement Danes,
Westminster, of Temple Nelson, son of Robert and Mary. So May 1643 is
a _terminus ante quem_ [sp ?] for the marriage of Robert and Mary.
Westminster, of Temple Nelson, son of Robert and Mary. So May 1643 is
a _terminus ante quem_ [sp ?] for the marriage of Robert and Mary.
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John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Portrait of John Nelson of Boston ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Sf5AQxTNI0
Starchy looking, isn't he ...?
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Sf5AQxTNI0
Starchy looking, isn't he ...?
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Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Thank you for posting the information about the immigrant, John Nelson,
of Boston, Massachusetts and his family. Much appreciated. I
especially enjoyed seeing the portrait of John Nelson in the Saunders
book.
Best always., Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City. Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Thank you for posting the information about the immigrant, John Nelson,
of Boston, Massachusetts and his family. Much appreciated. I
especially enjoyed seeing the portrait of John Nelson in the Saunders
book.
Best always., Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City. Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Portrait of John Nelson of Boston ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Sf5AQxTNI0
Starchy looking, isn't he ...?
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Here is an additional link to information in Dedham Historical
Register, volume 1, pp. 131-132 (published 1890) regarding the
immigrant, John Nelson, and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of William
Taylor:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 0&pg=PA130
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City., Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Here is an additional link to information in Dedham Historical
Register, volume 1, pp. 131-132 (published 1890) regarding the
immigrant, John Nelson, and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of William
Taylor:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 0&pg=PA130
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City., Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Portrait of John Nelson of Boston ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Sf5AQxTNI0
Starchy looking, isn't he ...?
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
You're welcome, Doug. I notice that the catalogue states, "The coat of
arms on the painting is said to be of the Temple family." However,
Richard R. Johnson, _John Nelson, Merchant Adventurer_ (1991), p. 149,
note 1, states: "The arms of the signet ring used by John Nelson in
New England and depicted in his 1732 portrait (or, a cross patonce
sable) suggest that, like Admiral Horatio Nelson, he was descended from
the Nelsons of Maudesley and Wrightington in Lancashire."
So maybe that would extend the ancestry in the _Nelson_ line ...
arms on the painting is said to be of the Temple family." However,
Richard R. Johnson, _John Nelson, Merchant Adventurer_ (1991), p. 149,
note 1, states: "The arms of the signet ring used by John Nelson in
New England and depicted in his 1732 portrait (or, a cross patonce
sable) suggest that, like Admiral Horatio Nelson, he was descended from
the Nelsons of Maudesley and Wrightington in Lancashire."
So maybe that would extend the ancestry in the _Nelson_ line ...
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Richard Johnson's books adds a few other details ...
Robert and Mary Nelson had another son, Robert, who probably died young
(John was the sole surviving son named in his father's will); and
another daughter Ursula.
Mary died in 1669.
Robert married 2nd to Susanna ___; his will, proved in 1698, mentions
his "deare and kind wife Susanna to whom my love and affection is so
great that I cannot reward her too much."
John Nelson was "the seven-hundredth (and last) direct descendant of
his mother's grandmother, Lady Hester Temple, born during her
lifetime."
(See p. 18).
Robert and Mary Nelson had another son, Robert, who probably died young
(John was the sole surviving son named in his father's will); and
another daughter Ursula.
Mary died in 1669.
Robert married 2nd to Susanna ___; his will, proved in 1698, mentions
his "deare and kind wife Susanna to whom my love and affection is so
great that I cannot reward her too much."
John Nelson was "the seven-hundredth (and last) direct descendant of
his mother's grandmother, Lady Hester Temple, born during her
lifetime."
(See p. 18).
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Ref. given for Robert Nelson's will is -- Probate 11/447, fol. 190,
Public Record Office, London (proved 4 Aug. 1698).
Public Record Office, London (proved 4 Aug. 1698).
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John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
John Brandon wrote:
It's showing on the National Archives website with the same number
designation and date, "Will of Robert Nelson of Saint Ann Westminster,
Middlesex."
Ref. given for Robert Nelson's will is -- Probate 11/447, fol. 190,
Public Record Office, London (proved 4 Aug. 1698).
It's showing on the National Archives website with the same number
designation and date, "Will of Robert Nelson of Saint Ann Westminster,
Middlesex."
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Thank you for sharing these details about the Nelson family. Much
appreciated.
I show that a Mary, wife of Robert Nelson, of St. Margaret's
Westminster, gentleman, was suspected of being a papist in 1678
[Reference: Jeaffreson, Middlesex County Records, 4 (1892): 112]. I
believe this is probably Mary Temple, wife of Robert Nelson, Esq. If
so, I doubt that Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, as stated in Mr.
Johnson's book. All the same, I learned a long time ago that one has
to be extremely careful identifying people in London records, as there
are often multiple individuals with the same wive's names living at the
same time in London. As such, Mr. Johnson could well be right that
Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669. If so, then the Mary Nelson who was
a suspected papist in 1678 would obviously be a different woman.
Mr. Johnson is correct in stating that there is a will for a Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Anne's, Westminster, Middlesex dated September
1696, probated 4 August 1698. Checking online databases, it appears
that this man is generally thought to be the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson. The probate act book, however, states that Robert Nelson
was a resident of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Middlesex. If so, this
Robert Nelson was probably living in St. Anne's in 1696, when he made
his will, and living in St. Martin-in-the-Fields in 1698 when he died.
The testator names his wife, Susan (not Susanna), and his mother, Helen
Nelson. No children are named in the will. In a short codicil, he
mentions of judgement of £1200 "from my son," whose name is not given.
Also, it is unclear if the mother, Helen Nelson, was living at the
date of this will. The testator mentions that he was heir at law to a
house in Long Acre in Middlesex, which might well have belonged to his
mother. It's possible that Mr. Johnson is correct that this Robert
Nelson is the father of the immigrant, John Nelson, of Boston,
Massachusetts. But, if so, it is strange that Robert Nelson is not
mentioned in the will of his other son, Temple Nelson, proved in 1671.
Temple Nelson's will mentions only his sister, Margaret Nelson, his
kinsman, John Fiennes, Esq. (whose mother was a Temple), and Thomas
Fiennes son of his kinsman, John Fiennes.
I have yet to determine how or why Margaret Nelson, daughter of Robert
and sister of Temple, came to Virginia and married Rev. Thomas Teackle,
of Accomack County, Virginia. However, I note among her descendants
there is a Temple Nelson Robins, which name is highly suggestive.
There was supposedly a Provis Nelson who resided in early Accomack
County. This individual is identified in some databases as the brother
of Robert Nelson who married Mary Temple. If so, then Margaret
(Nelson) Teackle may have come to Virginia to live with her uncle's
family.
When you have a moment, John, perhaps you can share some more details
from Mr. Johnson's book, and tell us what documentation he has that
Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, and also what documentation exists
that Robert Nelson, Esq., who left a will proved in 1698 is the
immigrant's father.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Thank you for sharing these details about the Nelson family. Much
appreciated.
I show that a Mary, wife of Robert Nelson, of St. Margaret's
Westminster, gentleman, was suspected of being a papist in 1678
[Reference: Jeaffreson, Middlesex County Records, 4 (1892): 112]. I
believe this is probably Mary Temple, wife of Robert Nelson, Esq. If
so, I doubt that Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, as stated in Mr.
Johnson's book. All the same, I learned a long time ago that one has
to be extremely careful identifying people in London records, as there
are often multiple individuals with the same wive's names living at the
same time in London. As such, Mr. Johnson could well be right that
Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669. If so, then the Mary Nelson who was
a suspected papist in 1678 would obviously be a different woman.
Mr. Johnson is correct in stating that there is a will for a Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Anne's, Westminster, Middlesex dated September
1696, probated 4 August 1698. Checking online databases, it appears
that this man is generally thought to be the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson. The probate act book, however, states that Robert Nelson
was a resident of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Middlesex. If so, this
Robert Nelson was probably living in St. Anne's in 1696, when he made
his will, and living in St. Martin-in-the-Fields in 1698 when he died.
The testator names his wife, Susan (not Susanna), and his mother, Helen
Nelson. No children are named in the will. In a short codicil, he
mentions of judgement of £1200 "from my son," whose name is not given.
Also, it is unclear if the mother, Helen Nelson, was living at the
date of this will. The testator mentions that he was heir at law to a
house in Long Acre in Middlesex, which might well have belonged to his
mother. It's possible that Mr. Johnson is correct that this Robert
Nelson is the father of the immigrant, John Nelson, of Boston,
Massachusetts. But, if so, it is strange that Robert Nelson is not
mentioned in the will of his other son, Temple Nelson, proved in 1671.
Temple Nelson's will mentions only his sister, Margaret Nelson, his
kinsman, John Fiennes, Esq. (whose mother was a Temple), and Thomas
Fiennes son of his kinsman, John Fiennes.
I have yet to determine how or why Margaret Nelson, daughter of Robert
and sister of Temple, came to Virginia and married Rev. Thomas Teackle,
of Accomack County, Virginia. However, I note among her descendants
there is a Temple Nelson Robins, which name is highly suggestive.
There was supposedly a Provis Nelson who resided in early Accomack
County. This individual is identified in some databases as the brother
of Robert Nelson who married Mary Temple. If so, then Margaret
(Nelson) Teackle may have come to Virginia to live with her uncle's
family.
When you have a moment, John, perhaps you can share some more details
from Mr. Johnson's book, and tell us what documentation he has that
Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, and also what documentation exists
that Robert Nelson, Esq., who left a will proved in 1698 is the
immigrant's father.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
Richard Johnson's books adds a few other details ...
Robert and Mary Nelson had another son, Robert, who probably died young
(John was the sole surviving son named in his father's will); and
another daughter Ursula.
Mary died in 1669.
Robert married 2nd to Susanna ___; his will, proved in 1698, mentions
his "deare and kind wife Susanna to whom my love and affection is so
great that I cannot reward her too much."
John Nelson was "the seven-hundredth (and last) direct descendant of
his mother's grandmother, Lady Hester Temple, born during her
lifetime."
(See p. 18).
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Hi Doug,
I'll have to wait till the book gets back to its place on the shelf to
answer fully (might be next week), but here are a few thoughts ...
Of course, we should remember that the Temples were a famously Puritan
family in their religious sympathies -- which may make it a unlikely
Mary Temple Nelson would be _this_ particular papist lady.
I believe Johnson cites a letter from Robert Nelson to Thomas Temple in
America as mentioning the death of Mary, who pined away after the death
of a beloved child (whichever one that may be).
Johnson mentions that the father's will only says something about the
fact that his son owed money to the estate (which matches up with what
you've written above). _Descent of John Nelson and His Children_
claims that RobertA's mother was, in fact, a certain Helen.
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1093
I don't see any mention or Teackles in _Descent of John Nelson_
(above), or in Richard Johnson's book.
It seems clear that the arms on the 1732 painting are "Or, a cross
patonce sable." See
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1073
Also looks like John and Elizabeth Nelson both died in 1734 ...
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1088
I'll have to wait till the book gets back to its place on the shelf to
answer fully (might be next week), but here are a few thoughts ...
I show that a Mary, wife of Robert Nelson, of St. Margaret's
Westminster, gentleman, was suspected of being a papist in 1678
[Reference: Jeaffreson, Middlesex County Records, 4 (1892): 112]. I
believe this is probably Mary Temple, wife of Robert Nelson, Esq. If
Of course, we should remember that the Temples were a famously Puritan
family in their religious sympathies -- which may make it a unlikely
Mary Temple Nelson would be _this_ particular papist lady.
I believe Johnson cites a letter from Robert Nelson to Thomas Temple in
America as mentioning the death of Mary, who pined away after the death
of a beloved child (whichever one that may be).
Mr. Johnson is correct in stating that there is a will for a Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Anne's, Westminster, Middlesex dated September
1696, probated 4 August 1698. Checking online databases, it appears
that this man is generally thought to be the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson. The probate act book, however, states that Robert Nelson
was a resident of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Middlesex. If so, this
Robert Nelson was probably living in St. Anne's in 1696, when he made
his will, and living in St. Martin-in-the-Fields in 1698 when he died.
The testator names his wife, Susan (not Susanna), and his mother, Helen
Nelson. No children are named in the will. In a short codicil, he
mentions of judgement of £1200 "from my son," whose name is not given.
Also, it is unclear if the mother, Helen Nelson, was living at the
date of this will. The testator mentions that he was heir at law to a
house in Long Acre in Middlesex, which might well have belonged to his
mother. It's possible that Mr. Johnson is correct that this Robert
Nelson is the father of the immigrant, John Nelson, of Boston,
Massachusetts. But, if so, it is strange that Robert Nelson is not
mentioned in the will of his other son, Temple Nelson, proved in 1671.
Temple Nelson's will mentions only his sister, Margaret Nelson, his
kinsman, John Fiennes, Esq. (whose mother was a Temple), and Thomas
Fiennes son of his kinsman, John Fiennes.
Johnson mentions that the father's will only says something about the
fact that his son owed money to the estate (which matches up with what
you've written above). _Descent of John Nelson and His Children_
claims that RobertA's mother was, in fact, a certain Helen.
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1093
I have yet to determine how or why Margaret Nelson, daughter of Robert
and sister of Temple, came to Virginia and married Rev. Thomas Teackle,
of Accomack County, Virginia. However, I note among her descendants
there is a Temple Nelson Robins, which name is highly suggestive.
There was supposedly a Provis Nelson who resided in early Accomack
County. This individual is identified in some databases as the brother
of Robert Nelson who married Mary Temple. If so, then Margaret
(Nelson) Teackle may have come to Virginia to live with her uncle's
family.
I don't see any mention or Teackles in _Descent of John Nelson_
(above), or in Richard Johnson's book.
It seems clear that the arms on the 1732 painting are "Or, a cross
patonce sable." See
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1073
Also looks like John and Elizabeth Nelson both died in 1734 ...
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1088
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Speaking of Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, I notice two
baptisms there that might be the children of Robert and Mary:
--Edmund Nelson, son of Robert and Mary, 28 Oct. 1649
--Robert Nelson, son of Robert and Mary, 21 Dec. 1651
There is also a Henry Nelson, only called son of Robert, baptized in
1656.
I believe Mary Nelson had a brother Edmund Temple.
baptisms there that might be the children of Robert and Mary:
--Edmund Nelson, son of Robert and Mary, 28 Oct. 1649
--Robert Nelson, son of Robert and Mary, 21 Dec. 1651
There is also a Henry Nelson, only called son of Robert, baptized in
1656.
I believe Mary Nelson had a brother Edmund Temple.
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
I suppose the will of RobertB Nelson could be checked (PCC 8 Campbell;
proved 31 Jan. 1642).
proved 31 Jan. 1642).
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Here are two more items from the A2A Catalogue which concern Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Martins in the Field, and one for a Robert Nelson,
Esq., of London. I assume these records are for the same person who
appears in other records as Robert Nelson, Esq., of Gray's Inn.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
#1. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/047
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Demise for 1,000 years: (1)a, (2)a & b at direction of (1)b & (1)b. to
(3) a-d
Creation dates: 27 Aug 1688
Scope and Content
To secure payment of £5,000 and interest to be held in trust for (4) a
& b.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.,
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer.
(3)a. Sir William Turnor of London, knt.
b. Rev. John Tillotson, D.D. and Dean of Canterbury.
c. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.,
d. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4)a. Rt. Hon. Charles Lord Clifford, son and heir apparent of the Rt.
Hon. Richard Earl of Burlington and Cork and Lord High Treasurer of
Ireland.
b. Arethusa wife of said Lord Clifford and one of the daughters of
(1)a.
[Recites: (2) a & b seized of property below (charged only with a term
of 60 years granted to (1)a in trust for (1)b.
Marriage settlement of (4)a & b, dated 25 Feb. 1688]
Property as in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Seals: (1)a & b, (2) a & b
#2. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/054
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Assignment of residue of term of 1000 years: (3) a & b at the direction
of (2) and (1) a & b and (2) at the direction of (1) a and b. to (4)
for £3,800 from (4) to (2) and £200 from (1)b to (2)
Creation dates: 16 Oct 1695
Scope and Content
Includes
Agreement: (4) and (1)a & b that (4) will reconvey to (6) a & b., in
trust for (1)b on payment of £3,990.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George, Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2) Rt. Hon. Lady Arethusa Dowager Clifford, widow of the Hon. Charles
Lord Clifford decd. and one of the daughters of (1)a.
(3)a. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.
b. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4) Sir John Chardin of Turnham Green, knt.
(5)a. Andrew Card of Grays Inn, gent.
b. Joseph Micklethwaite of London, gent.
(6)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., sergeant-at-law.
[Recites: Marriage Settlement, dated 25 Feb. 1688, of (2) and Lord
Clifford.
ACC/0530/ED/01/047
£1,000 of the £5,000 was paid to Clifford bar £4,000 (...)
William Turnor and John Tillotson (see ACC/0530/ED/01/047) now dead].
Property in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Endorsed: (1) Memo. that every skin of this indenture is stamped in
accordance with the act of Parliament.
(2) Receipt for £200: Chardin to the Earl & Countess of Berkeley.
16.Dec.1696.
(3) and (4) Further charges [see separate items] Aug. and Dec.1698.
Seals: (1)-(4), (5)a. & (6)a.
Original Bundle 103.
Endorsement 3: 3 Aug. 1698. Further charge of £400 by (1) on the
property within mentioned. £200 of the original principle sum of
£3,800 having been repaid. £4,000 in all is now due. Interest at 5½%
(1) Earl and Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Originally bundle 103.
Seals: (2)
Endorsement 4: 16 Dec 1693. Further charge of £1,000 by (1), on the
property within mentioned making £5,000 in all, at 5% interest.
(Earl of Berkeley recently deceased).
(1) Dowager Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Seals: (2)
#3. London Metropolitan Archives: Heames, Thomas, fl 1736, Reference:
ACC/0241/022
Copy of Court Roll.
Creation dates: 1691
Scope and Content
Surrender by 1 in favour of 2, as security for payment of £1680.
Parties:-
1. John Bathurst.
2. Robert Nelson of London, Esquire.
Here are two more items from the A2A Catalogue which concern Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Martins in the Field, and one for a Robert Nelson,
Esq., of London. I assume these records are for the same person who
appears in other records as Robert Nelson, Esq., of Gray's Inn.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
#1. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/047
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Demise for 1,000 years: (1)a, (2)a & b at direction of (1)b & (1)b. to
(3) a-d
Creation dates: 27 Aug 1688
Scope and Content
To secure payment of £5,000 and interest to be held in trust for (4) a
& b.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.,
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer.
(3)a. Sir William Turnor of London, knt.
b. Rev. John Tillotson, D.D. and Dean of Canterbury.
c. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.,
d. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4)a. Rt. Hon. Charles Lord Clifford, son and heir apparent of the Rt.
Hon. Richard Earl of Burlington and Cork and Lord High Treasurer of
Ireland.
b. Arethusa wife of said Lord Clifford and one of the daughters of
(1)a.
[Recites: (2) a & b seized of property below (charged only with a term
of 60 years granted to (1)a in trust for (1)b.
Marriage settlement of (4)a & b, dated 25 Feb. 1688]
Property as in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Seals: (1)a & b, (2) a & b
#2. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/054
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Assignment of residue of term of 1000 years: (3) a & b at the direction
of (2) and (1) a & b and (2) at the direction of (1) a and b. to (4)
for £3,800 from (4) to (2) and £200 from (1)b to (2)
Creation dates: 16 Oct 1695
Scope and Content
Includes
Agreement: (4) and (1)a & b that (4) will reconvey to (6) a & b., in
trust for (1)b on payment of £3,990.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George, Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2) Rt. Hon. Lady Arethusa Dowager Clifford, widow of the Hon. Charles
Lord Clifford decd. and one of the daughters of (1)a.
(3)a. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.
b. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4) Sir John Chardin of Turnham Green, knt.
(5)a. Andrew Card of Grays Inn, gent.
b. Joseph Micklethwaite of London, gent.
(6)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., sergeant-at-law.
[Recites: Marriage Settlement, dated 25 Feb. 1688, of (2) and Lord
Clifford.
ACC/0530/ED/01/047
£1,000 of the £5,000 was paid to Clifford bar £4,000 (...)
William Turnor and John Tillotson (see ACC/0530/ED/01/047) now dead].
Property in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Endorsed: (1) Memo. that every skin of this indenture is stamped in
accordance with the act of Parliament.
(2) Receipt for £200: Chardin to the Earl & Countess of Berkeley.
16.Dec.1696.
(3) and (4) Further charges [see separate items] Aug. and Dec.1698.
Seals: (1)-(4), (5)a. & (6)a.
Original Bundle 103.
Endorsement 3: 3 Aug. 1698. Further charge of £400 by (1) on the
property within mentioned. £200 of the original principle sum of
£3,800 having been repaid. £4,000 in all is now due. Interest at 5½%
(1) Earl and Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Originally bundle 103.
Seals: (2)
Endorsement 4: 16 Dec 1693. Further charge of £1,000 by (1), on the
property within mentioned making £5,000 in all, at 5% interest.
(Earl of Berkeley recently deceased).
(1) Dowager Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Seals: (2)
#3. London Metropolitan Archives: Heames, Thomas, fl 1736, Reference:
ACC/0241/022
Copy of Court Roll.
Creation dates: 1691
Scope and Content
Surrender by 1 in favour of 2, as security for payment of £1680.
Parties:-
1. John Bathurst.
2. Robert Nelson of London, Esquire.
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Wow -- lofty connections!
-
Renia
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
John Brandon wrote:
Nothing on PRO.
I suppose the will of RobertB Nelson could be checked (PCC 8 Campbell;
proved 31 Jan. 1642).
Nothing on PRO.
-
Renia
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Conyers is a Yorkshire family. Nelson is a predominant name in
Yorkshire. Just my 2 cents . . .
Renia
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Yorkshire. Just my 2 cents . . .
Renia
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~
Here are two more items from the A2A Catalogue which concern Robert
Nelson, Esq., of St. Martins in the Field, and one for a Robert Nelson,
Esq., of London. I assume these records are for the same person who
appears in other records as Robert Nelson, Esq., of Gray's Inn.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
#1. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/047
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Demise for 1,000 years: (1)a, (2)a & b at direction of (1)b & (1)b. to
(3) a-d
Creation dates: 27 Aug 1688
Scope and Content
To secure payment of £5,000 and interest to be held in trust for (4) a
& b.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.,
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer.
(3)a. Sir William Turnor of London, knt.
b. Rev. John Tillotson, D.D. and Dean of Canterbury.
c. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.,
d. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4)a. Rt. Hon. Charles Lord Clifford, son and heir apparent of the Rt.
Hon. Richard Earl of Burlington and Cork and Lord High Treasurer of
Ireland.
b. Arethusa wife of said Lord Clifford and one of the daughters of
(1)a.
[Recites: (2) a & b seized of property below (charged only with a term
of 60 years granted to (1)a in trust for (1)b.
Marriage settlement of (4)a & b, dated 25 Feb. 1688]
Property as in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Seals: (1)a & b, (2) a & b
#2. London Metropolitan Archives: Berkeley Family and Estates,
Reference: ACC/0530/ED/01/054
Former Reference: Originally bundle 103
Assignment of residue of term of 1000 years: (3) a & b at the direction
of (2) and (1) a & b and (2) at the direction of (1) a and b. to (4)
for £3,800 from (4) to (2) and £200 from (1)b to (2)
Creation dates: 16 Oct 1695
Scope and Content
Includes
Agreement: (4) and (1)a & b that (4) will reconvey to (6) a & b., in
trust for (1)b on payment of £3,990.
(1)a. Rt.Hon. George, Earl of Berkeley and b. Elizabeth his wife.
(2) Rt. Hon. Lady Arethusa Dowager Clifford, widow of the Hon. Charles
Lord Clifford decd. and one of the daughters of (1)a.
(3)a. Robert Nelson of St. Martin in the Fields, Esq.
b. John Conyers of the Middle Temple, Esq.
(4) Sir John Chardin of Turnham Green, knt.
(5)a. Andrew Card of Grays Inn, gent.
b. Joseph Micklethwaite of London, gent.
(6)a. Hon. Ralph Widdrington of St. Giles in the Fields, Esq.
b. Sir Edward Atkyns knt., sergeant-at-law.
[Recites: Marriage Settlement, dated 25 Feb. 1688, of (2) and Lord
Clifford.
ACC/0530/ED/01/047
£1,000 of the £5,000 was paid to Clifford bar £4,000 (...)
William Turnor and John Tillotson (see ACC/0530/ED/01/047) now dead].
Property in ACC/0530/ED/01/036.
Endorsed: (1) Memo. that every skin of this indenture is stamped in
accordance with the act of Parliament.
(2) Receipt for £200: Chardin to the Earl & Countess of Berkeley.
16.Dec.1696.
(3) and (4) Further charges [see separate items] Aug. and Dec.1698.
Seals: (1)-(4), (5)a. & (6)a.
Original Bundle 103.
Endorsement 3: 3 Aug. 1698. Further charge of £400 by (1) on the
property within mentioned. £200 of the original principle sum of
£3,800 having been repaid. £4,000 in all is now due. Interest at 5½%
(1) Earl and Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Originally bundle 103.
Seals: (2)
Endorsement 4: 16 Dec 1693. Further charge of £1,000 by (1), on the
property within mentioned making £5,000 in all, at 5% interest.
(Earl of Berkeley recently deceased).
(1) Dowager Countess of Berkeley.
(2) John Chardin.
Seals: (2)
#3. London Metropolitan Archives: Heames, Thomas, fl 1736, Reference:
ACC/0241/022
Copy of Court Roll.
Creation dates: 1691
Scope and Content
Surrender by 1 in favour of 2, as security for payment of £1680.
Parties:-
1. John Bathurst.
2. Robert Nelson of London, Esquire.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
The will of Robert Nelson which you mentioned is indeed recorded in
Prerogative Court of Canterburty (PCC), 8 Cambell, and can be viewed on
FHL Microfilm 92152. The will is dated 14 Dec. 1641, and was proved 31
Jan. 1641/2 by the testator's widow, Hellen Nelson. In the will, the
testator identifies himself as Robert Nelson, of Barnard's Inn, London,
gentleman. He requests burial in the parish church of St. Dunstan's in
the West. He names his wife, Hellen, his sole executrix, and refers to
his eldest son, Robert. No other relatives are mentioned.
An internet website
(http://ghotes.net/WILKINS1/jarvis/elizabethrobins.htm) states that the
above Robert Nelson was buried at St. Dunstan's in the West 21 December
1641. This date is probably correct, but needs verification with the
original parish records.
Robert Nelson and his wife, Helen, are believed to have had at least
two sons, Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), of Gray's Inn (father of the
immigrant, John Nelson) and Provost (or Provis) Nelson, who immigrated
to Accomack County, Virginia. Interestingly, I find that Boyd's
Marriage Index shows the marriage of Robert Nelson and Ellen Provost in
1609 in the parish of St. Peter Westcheap, London [Reference: Percival
Boyd, Boyd's Marriage Index, London, 33: 199 (Brides); 36: 149
(Grooms)]. Again, this date is probably correct, but needs
verification with the original parish records.
In the next generation, you mentioned finding the baptisms of three
Nelson children in the International Genealogical Index at St.
Martin-in-the-Field, Westminster, Middlesex. The original parish
registers on FHL Microfilms 560369 & 560370 show the following entries:
Edmund, son of Robert & Mary Nelson, baptized 28 October 1649.
Robert, son of Robert Nelson, Esq. & Mary, baptized 21 Dec. 1651.
Henry, son of Robert Nelson, Esq., baptized 1 August 1656.
Inasmuch as Robert Nelson is twice styled "Esquire" in these records, I
think we can safely assume that he is the same person as Robert Nelson,
Esquire (died 1698), of Gray's Inn who was the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
The will of Robert Nelson which you mentioned is indeed recorded in
Prerogative Court of Canterburty (PCC), 8 Cambell, and can be viewed on
FHL Microfilm 92152. The will is dated 14 Dec. 1641, and was proved 31
Jan. 1641/2 by the testator's widow, Hellen Nelson. In the will, the
testator identifies himself as Robert Nelson, of Barnard's Inn, London,
gentleman. He requests burial in the parish church of St. Dunstan's in
the West. He names his wife, Hellen, his sole executrix, and refers to
his eldest son, Robert. No other relatives are mentioned.
An internet website
(http://ghotes.net/WILKINS1/jarvis/elizabethrobins.htm) states that the
above Robert Nelson was buried at St. Dunstan's in the West 21 December
1641. This date is probably correct, but needs verification with the
original parish records.
Robert Nelson and his wife, Helen, are believed to have had at least
two sons, Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), of Gray's Inn (father of the
immigrant, John Nelson) and Provost (or Provis) Nelson, who immigrated
to Accomack County, Virginia. Interestingly, I find that Boyd's
Marriage Index shows the marriage of Robert Nelson and Ellen Provost in
1609 in the parish of St. Peter Westcheap, London [Reference: Percival
Boyd, Boyd's Marriage Index, London, 33: 199 (Brides); 36: 149
(Grooms)]. Again, this date is probably correct, but needs
verification with the original parish records.
In the next generation, you mentioned finding the baptisms of three
Nelson children in the International Genealogical Index at St.
Martin-in-the-Field, Westminster, Middlesex. The original parish
registers on FHL Microfilms 560369 & 560370 show the following entries:
Edmund, son of Robert & Mary Nelson, baptized 28 October 1649.
Robert, son of Robert Nelson, Esq. & Mary, baptized 21 Dec. 1651.
Henry, son of Robert Nelson, Esq., baptized 1 August 1656.
Inasmuch as Robert Nelson is twice styled "Esquire" in these records, I
think we can safely assume that he is the same person as Robert Nelson,
Esquire (died 1698), of Gray's Inn who was the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
I suppose the will of RobertB Nelson could be checked (PCC 8 Campbell;
proved 31 Jan. 1642).
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Good work, Doug. You're really fleshing out this family.
Also, I would just note the following baptisms, also at St.
Martin-in-the-Fields:
--Stephen, son of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 17 April 1650
--Mary, dau. of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 30 Aug. 1651
--John, son of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 13 May 1653
Remember that Sir Thomas Temple deeded property in Boston to Stephen
Temple, son of Col. Edmund Temple. I believe Col. Edmund was a brother
of Sir Thomas of New England (Nicholls' _Leicestershire_ may show them
as brothers in a pedigree chart, if I'm remembering correctly).
There was also a Sands Temple who was having children in St.
Martin-in-the-Fields during the same period (Hester "Sands" [i.e.,
Sandys] Temple was the name of the hugely-prolific grandmother of Mary
(Temple) Nelson--she also had Gibbes descendants in New England).
Helen Nelson must have been somewhat over 100 years of age when her son
made his will in 1696!
In the next generation, you mentioned finding the baptisms of three
Nelson children in the International Genealogical Index at St.
Martin-in-the-Field, Westminster, Middlesex. The original parish
registers on FHL Microfilms 560369 & 560370 show the following entries:
Edmund, son of Robert & Mary Nelson, baptized 28 October 1649.
Robert, son of Robert Nelson, Esq. & Mary, baptized 21 Dec. 1651.
Henry, son of Robert Nelson, Esq., baptized 1 August 1656.
Inasmuch as Robert Nelson is twice styled "Esquire" in these records, I
think we can safely assume that he is the same person as Robert Nelson,
Esquire (died 1698), of Gray's Inn who was the father of the immigrant,
John Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts.
Also, I would just note the following baptisms, also at St.
Martin-in-the-Fields:
--Stephen, son of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 17 April 1650
--Mary, dau. of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 30 Aug. 1651
--John, son of Edmund and Eleanor Temple, 13 May 1653
Remember that Sir Thomas Temple deeded property in Boston to Stephen
Temple, son of Col. Edmund Temple. I believe Col. Edmund was a brother
of Sir Thomas of New England (Nicholls' _Leicestershire_ may show them
as brothers in a pedigree chart, if I'm remembering correctly).
There was also a Sands Temple who was having children in St.
Martin-in-the-Fields during the same period (Hester "Sands" [i.e.,
Sandys] Temple was the name of the hugely-prolific grandmother of Mary
(Temple) Nelson--she also had Gibbes descendants in New England).
Helen Nelson must have been somewhat over 100 years of age when her son
made his will in 1696!
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Also, it's rather interesting that the ghotes website you mentioned
shows a high degree of intermarriage among the Teackle descendants in
Virginia ...
shows a high degree of intermarriage among the Teackle descendants in
Virginia ...
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Helen Nelson must have been somewhat over 100 years of age when her son
made his will in 1696!
If she married at 14 or 15 (born 1594 or '95), she would have been 101
or 102 in 1696. She may not have lived 'til 1698, come to think of it.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
I doubt very much that Helen (Provost) Nelson was living in 1696, when
her son, Robert Nelson, Esq., made his will. The way the will is
written, it is unclear if Helen was still living, as her son doesn't
leave her an outright bequest as would be typical if she was living.
According to one helpful web site I consulted this past week
(http://www.esva.net/ghotes/WILKINS/jarv ... robins.htm), Helen
(Provost) Nelson was living in 1678. If correct, Helen Nelson
certainly lived to advanced years, as she was married back in 1609.
However, even this statement needs verification.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
< Helen Nelson must have been somewhat over 100 years of age when her
son
< made his will in 1696!
<
< If she married at 14 or 15 (born 1594 or '95), she would have been
101
< or 102 in 1696. She may not have lived 'til 1698, come to think of
it.
I doubt very much that Helen (Provost) Nelson was living in 1696, when
her son, Robert Nelson, Esq., made his will. The way the will is
written, it is unclear if Helen was still living, as her son doesn't
leave her an outright bequest as would be typical if she was living.
According to one helpful web site I consulted this past week
(http://www.esva.net/ghotes/WILKINS/jarv ... robins.htm), Helen
(Provost) Nelson was living in 1678. If correct, Helen Nelson
certainly lived to advanced years, as she was married back in 1609.
However, even this statement needs verification.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
< Helen Nelson must have been somewhat over 100 years of age when her
son
< made his will in 1696!
<
< If she married at 14 or 15 (born 1594 or '95), she would have been
101
< or 102 in 1696. She may not have lived 'til 1698, come to think of
it.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Here is another child for Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), and his
wife, Mary Temple:
Mary Nelson, daughter of Robert Nelson, Gent., and Mary, baptized at
St. James, Clerkenwell 1 April 1642 [Reference: Hovenden, True Register
of ... Parishe of St. James, Clarkenwall 1 (Harl. Soc. Reg. Series 9)
1884): 150].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
< Good work, Doug. You're really fleshing out this family.
Here is another child for Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), and his
wife, Mary Temple:
Mary Nelson, daughter of Robert Nelson, Gent., and Mary, baptized at
St. James, Clerkenwell 1 April 1642 [Reference: Hovenden, True Register
of ... Parishe of St. James, Clarkenwall 1 (Harl. Soc. Reg. Series 9)
1884): 150].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
John Brandon wrote:
< Good work, Doug. You're really fleshing out this family.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Below is a new Magna Carta descent for the immigrant, John Nelson, of
Boston, Massachusetts, and also for his sister, Margaret (Nelson)
Teackle, of Accomack County, Virginia.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
1. Geoffrey de Say, of West Greenwich, Kent, married _____.
2. William de Say, of West Greenwich, Kent, married Sibyl _____.
3. Agnes de Say, married Alexander de Cheyne, Knt., of Titehest,
Hertfordshire.
4. William de Cheyne, of Street, Sussex, married Margaret de Shurland.
5. Robert de Cheyne, of Shurland (in Eastchurch), Kent, married _____.
6. Richard Cheyne, of Shurland (in Eastchurch), Kent, married Margaret
Cralle.
7. Elizabeth Cheyne, married John Wilcotes, of Great Tew, Oxfordshire.
8. Margaret Wilcotes, married John Ashfield, Esq., of Heythrop,
Oxfordshire.
9. John Ashfield, Esq., of Heythrop, Oxfordshire, married Margaret
Colwick.
10. Edmund Ashfield, Knt., of Ewelme, Oxfordshire, died 1578, married
Eleanor Barton.
11. Amice Ashfield, died 1599, married Edmund Lee, of Pightlesthorne,
Buckinghamshire.
12. Edmund Lee, Esq., of Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1599,
married Dorothy Browne.
13. Dorothy Lee, died 1625, married John Temple, Knt., of Stowe and
Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1632.
14. Mary Temple, married Robert Nelson, Esq., of St. Clement Danes,
Westminster, St. Martin-in-the-Fields, and St. Anne's, Westminster,
Middlesex, died 1698.
15. John Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts, died 1734, married Elizabeth
Taylor.
Below is a new Magna Carta descent for the immigrant, John Nelson, of
Boston, Massachusetts, and also for his sister, Margaret (Nelson)
Teackle, of Accomack County, Virginia.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
1. Geoffrey de Say, of West Greenwich, Kent, married _____.
2. William de Say, of West Greenwich, Kent, married Sibyl _____.
3. Agnes de Say, married Alexander de Cheyne, Knt., of Titehest,
Hertfordshire.
4. William de Cheyne, of Street, Sussex, married Margaret de Shurland.
5. Robert de Cheyne, of Shurland (in Eastchurch), Kent, married _____.
6. Richard Cheyne, of Shurland (in Eastchurch), Kent, married Margaret
Cralle.
7. Elizabeth Cheyne, married John Wilcotes, of Great Tew, Oxfordshire.
8. Margaret Wilcotes, married John Ashfield, Esq., of Heythrop,
Oxfordshire.
9. John Ashfield, Esq., of Heythrop, Oxfordshire, married Margaret
Colwick.
10. Edmund Ashfield, Knt., of Ewelme, Oxfordshire, died 1578, married
Eleanor Barton.
11. Amice Ashfield, died 1599, married Edmund Lee, of Pightlesthorne,
Buckinghamshire.
12. Edmund Lee, Esq., of Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1599,
married Dorothy Browne.
13. Dorothy Lee, died 1625, married John Temple, Knt., of Stowe and
Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1632.
14. Mary Temple, married Robert Nelson, Esq., of St. Clement Danes,
Westminster, St. Martin-in-the-Fields, and St. Anne's, Westminster,
Middlesex, died 1698.
15. John Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts, died 1734, married Elizabeth
Taylor.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
We were discussing the possibility of whether or not Mary, wife of
Robert Nelson, the suspected papist in 1678, could the mother of John
Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts. In answer to the question, I found
the following information below on the internet regarding an Avice Lee,
widow, who I believe is almost certainly the same person as Mary
(Temple) Nelson's great-grandmother, Avice (Ashfield) Lee, who died in
1599. The Robert Dormer named in this material below was the brother
of Mary (Dormer) Browne, whose daughter, Dorothy Browne, married Edmund
Lee, Esq., son and heir of Avice (Ashfield) Lee.
If this information is correct, at least some of Mary (Temple) Nelson's
family were Catholic.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/tvp/tvp10.htm
In 1585, while Thomas Belson was still in prison, the Sheriff of
Buckinghamshire, Robert Dormer of Wing, was ordered to compile a list
of recusants. Each was to pay a fine of £260 (= £28,000 today) and
finance a cavalryman for the Queen. Robert Dormer was himself a
Catholic, which helps explain the leniency of the Buckinghamshire
judiciary towards his co-religionists. The authorities knew that he
harboured priests and even that Fr Edmund Campion had celebrated Mass
at his house. Dormer also had many Catholic relatives. His
brothers-in-law included Francis Browne of Henley Park, George Browne
of Shefford, the younger Francis Englefield and the Count of Feria,
formerly Philip II's representative in England. The martyred Carthusian
monk Sebastian Newdigate, an uncle of Dame Cecily Stonor, was the
Sheriff's great uncle.
But despite his religious allegiance, Robert Dormer did not altogether
avoid the duties of his office. He named twenty-two Catholics and the
threat of the new penalties proved too much for at least one. The widow
Avice Lee, a neighbour of the Belsons, had refused to conform for the
last two decades. Now, worn down by the struggle, she saved her lands
by taking Communion in her parish church. However, two years later she
was again listed as a recusant. Her younger son Roger became a guide
and helper to the Jesuit Fr John Gerard, and subsequently became a
Jesuit priest himself. END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear John ~
<
< Thank you for sharing these details about the Nelson family. Much
< appreciated.
<
< I show that a Mary, wife of Robert Nelson, of St. Margaret's
< Westminster, gentleman, was suspected of being a papist in 1678
< [Reference: Jeaffreson, Middlesex County Records, 4 (1892): 112]. I
< believe this is probably Mary Temple, wife of Robert Nelson, Esq. If
< so, I doubt that Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, as stated in Mr.
< Johnson's book. All the same, I learned a long time ago that one has
< to be extremely careful identifying people in London records, as
there
< are often multiple individuals with the same wive's names living at
the
< same time in London. As such, Mr. Johnson could well be right that
< Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669. If so, then the Mary Nelson who
was
< a suspected papist in 1678 would obviously be a different woman.
<
< Mr. Johnson is correct in stating that there is a will for a Robert
< Nelson, Esq., of St. Anne's, Westminster, Middlesex dated September
< 1696, probated 4 August 1698. Checking online databases, it appears
< that this man is generally thought to be the father of the immigrant,
< John Nelson. The probate act book, however, states that Robert
Nelson
< was a resident of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Middlesex. If so, this
< Robert Nelson was probably living in St. Anne's in 1696, when he made
< his will, and living in St. Martin-in-the-Fields in 1698 when he
died.
< The testator names his wife, Susan (not Susanna), and his mother,
Helen
< Nelson. No children are named in the will. In a short codicil, he
< mentions of judgement of £1200 "from my son," whose name is not
given.
< Also, it is unclear if the mother, Helen Nelson, was living at the
< date of this will. The testator mentions that he was heir at law to
a
< house in Long Acre in Middlesex, which might well have belonged to
his
< mother. It's possible that Mr. Johnson is correct that this Robert
< Nelson is the father of the immigrant, John Nelson, of Boston,
< Massachusetts. But, if so, it is strange that Robert Nelson is not
< mentioned in the will of his other son, Temple Nelson, proved in
1671.
< Temple Nelson's will mentions only his sister, Margaret Nelson, his
< kinsman, John Fiennes, Esq. (whose mother was a Temple), and Thomas
< Fiennes son of his kinsman, John Fiennes.
<
< I have yet to determine how or why Margaret Nelson, daughter of
Robert
< and sister of Temple, came to Virginia and married Rev. Thomas
Teackle,
< of Accomack County, Virginia. However, I note among her descendants
< there is a Temple Nelson Robins, which name is highly suggestive.
< There was supposedly a Provis Nelson who resided in early Accomack
< County. This individual is identified in some databases as the
brother
< of Robert Nelson who married Mary Temple. If so, then Margaret
< (Nelson) Teackle may have come to Virginia to live with her uncle's
< family.
<
< When you have a moment, John, perhaps you can share some more details
< from Mr. Johnson's book, and tell us what documentation he has that
< Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, and also what documentation exists
< that Robert Nelson, Esq., who left a will proved in 1698 is the
< immigrant's father.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
<
We were discussing the possibility of whether or not Mary, wife of
Robert Nelson, the suspected papist in 1678, could the mother of John
Nelson, of Boston, Massachusetts. In answer to the question, I found
the following information below on the internet regarding an Avice Lee,
widow, who I believe is almost certainly the same person as Mary
(Temple) Nelson's great-grandmother, Avice (Ashfield) Lee, who died in
1599. The Robert Dormer named in this material below was the brother
of Mary (Dormer) Browne, whose daughter, Dorothy Browne, married Edmund
Lee, Esq., son and heir of Avice (Ashfield) Lee.
If this information is correct, at least some of Mary (Temple) Nelson's
family were Catholic.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/tvp/tvp10.htm
In 1585, while Thomas Belson was still in prison, the Sheriff of
Buckinghamshire, Robert Dormer of Wing, was ordered to compile a list
of recusants. Each was to pay a fine of £260 (= £28,000 today) and
finance a cavalryman for the Queen. Robert Dormer was himself a
Catholic, which helps explain the leniency of the Buckinghamshire
judiciary towards his co-religionists. The authorities knew that he
harboured priests and even that Fr Edmund Campion had celebrated Mass
at his house. Dormer also had many Catholic relatives. His
brothers-in-law included Francis Browne of Henley Park, George Browne
of Shefford, the younger Francis Englefield and the Count of Feria,
formerly Philip II's representative in England. The martyred Carthusian
monk Sebastian Newdigate, an uncle of Dame Cecily Stonor, was the
Sheriff's great uncle.
But despite his religious allegiance, Robert Dormer did not altogether
avoid the duties of his office. He named twenty-two Catholics and the
threat of the new penalties proved too much for at least one. The widow
Avice Lee, a neighbour of the Belsons, had refused to conform for the
last two decades. Now, worn down by the struggle, she saved her lands
by taking Communion in her parish church. However, two years later she
was again listed as a recusant. Her younger son Roger became a guide
and helper to the Jesuit Fr John Gerard, and subsequently became a
Jesuit priest himself. END OF QUOTE.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear John ~
<
< Thank you for sharing these details about the Nelson family. Much
< appreciated.
<
< I show that a Mary, wife of Robert Nelson, of St. Margaret's
< Westminster, gentleman, was suspected of being a papist in 1678
< [Reference: Jeaffreson, Middlesex County Records, 4 (1892): 112]. I
< believe this is probably Mary Temple, wife of Robert Nelson, Esq. If
< so, I doubt that Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, as stated in Mr.
< Johnson's book. All the same, I learned a long time ago that one has
< to be extremely careful identifying people in London records, as
there
< are often multiple individuals with the same wive's names living at
the
< same time in London. As such, Mr. Johnson could well be right that
< Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669. If so, then the Mary Nelson who
was
< a suspected papist in 1678 would obviously be a different woman.
<
< Mr. Johnson is correct in stating that there is a will for a Robert
< Nelson, Esq., of St. Anne's, Westminster, Middlesex dated September
< 1696, probated 4 August 1698. Checking online databases, it appears
< that this man is generally thought to be the father of the immigrant,
< John Nelson. The probate act book, however, states that Robert
Nelson
< was a resident of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Middlesex. If so, this
< Robert Nelson was probably living in St. Anne's in 1696, when he made
< his will, and living in St. Martin-in-the-Fields in 1698 when he
died.
< The testator names his wife, Susan (not Susanna), and his mother,
Helen
< Nelson. No children are named in the will. In a short codicil, he
< mentions of judgement of £1200 "from my son," whose name is not
given.
< Also, it is unclear if the mother, Helen Nelson, was living at the
< date of this will. The testator mentions that he was heir at law to
a
< house in Long Acre in Middlesex, which might well have belonged to
his
< mother. It's possible that Mr. Johnson is correct that this Robert
< Nelson is the father of the immigrant, John Nelson, of Boston,
< Massachusetts. But, if so, it is strange that Robert Nelson is not
< mentioned in the will of his other son, Temple Nelson, proved in
1671.
< Temple Nelson's will mentions only his sister, Margaret Nelson, his
< kinsman, John Fiennes, Esq. (whose mother was a Temple), and Thomas
< Fiennes son of his kinsman, John Fiennes.
<
< I have yet to determine how or why Margaret Nelson, daughter of
Robert
< and sister of Temple, came to Virginia and married Rev. Thomas
Teackle,
< of Accomack County, Virginia. However, I note among her descendants
< there is a Temple Nelson Robins, which name is highly suggestive.
< There was supposedly a Provis Nelson who resided in early Accomack
< County. This individual is identified in some databases as the
brother
< of Robert Nelson who married Mary Temple. If so, then Margaret
< (Nelson) Teackle may have come to Virginia to live with her uncle's
< family.
<
< When you have a moment, John, perhaps you can share some more details
< from Mr. Johnson's book, and tell us what documentation he has that
< Mary (Temple) Nelson died in 1669, and also what documentation exists
< that Robert Nelson, Esq., who left a will proved in 1698 is the
< immigrant's father.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
<
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John ~
Below are two records from the helpful online National Archives
catalogue which refer to Avice (Ashfield) Lee, the great-grandmother of
Mary (Temple) Nelson. While the Visitation of Oxfordshire (H.S.P. 5)
calls her Amice (or "Amicia") Ashfield, she is Avice below and also in
VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 464. She died in 1599. The property
involved in the two records below was formerly owned by Avice's father,
Sir Edmund Ashfield, who died in 1578. Alexander and Edmund Fettiplace
named in the records were the nephews of Avice (Ashfield) Lee.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
Item #1:
E 133/6/802
John Taverner, surveyor of the queen's woods by South Trent, v. Edmund
Phetiplace, Alexander Phetiplace, Avice Lee, widow, and Edmund Lee.
Woods in the honor of Ewelme, called Swincombe Wood, Wast Wood,
Bigfrith, Black Wood, Hogtroughe, Chalk Wood, Buckslade and Chalisdene,
leased by the queen to Thomas Knevet, and by him assigned to Sir Edmund
Ashefelde. Timber trees reserved to the queen alleged to have been
felled by the defendants. Oxon.
30/31 Eliz. Mich.
Item #2
E 134/29Eliz/East17
help - opens in a new window: quick reference
The Queen v. Edmund Fetyplace, Alexander Fetyplace, Edmund Lee, Avice
Lee, widow.: "Felling of certaine timber beeches in the manor of
Ewelme, by Sir Edmond Ashfield, Knt., and Alexr. Fetyplace." Touching
waste and spoil in woods called Swynecombe Woods, &c.
29 Eliz 1587
Below are two records from the helpful online National Archives
catalogue which refer to Avice (Ashfield) Lee, the great-grandmother of
Mary (Temple) Nelson. While the Visitation of Oxfordshire (H.S.P. 5)
calls her Amice (or "Amicia") Ashfield, she is Avice below and also in
VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 464. She died in 1599. The property
involved in the two records below was formerly owned by Avice's father,
Sir Edmund Ashfield, who died in 1578. Alexander and Edmund Fettiplace
named in the records were the nephews of Avice (Ashfield) Lee.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
Item #1:
E 133/6/802
John Taverner, surveyor of the queen's woods by South Trent, v. Edmund
Phetiplace, Alexander Phetiplace, Avice Lee, widow, and Edmund Lee.
Woods in the honor of Ewelme, called Swincombe Wood, Wast Wood,
Bigfrith, Black Wood, Hogtroughe, Chalk Wood, Buckslade and Chalisdene,
leased by the queen to Thomas Knevet, and by him assigned to Sir Edmund
Ashefelde. Timber trees reserved to the queen alleged to have been
felled by the defendants. Oxon.
30/31 Eliz. Mich.
Item #2
E 134/29Eliz/East17
help - opens in a new window: quick reference
The Queen v. Edmund Fetyplace, Alexander Fetyplace, Edmund Lee, Avice
Lee, widow.: "Felling of certaine timber beeches in the manor of
Ewelme, by Sir Edmond Ashfield, Knt., and Alexr. Fetyplace." Touching
waste and spoil in woods called Swynecombe Woods, &c.
29 Eliz 1587
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
If this information is correct, at least some of Mary (Temple) Nelson's
family were Catholic.
I wonder if Richard Johnson doesn't in fact have the date of death of
Mary incorrectly stated. He mentions that Robert Nelson, in a letter
to his brother-in-law in New England, states that his wife misses her
brother and her son "Jacke" [i.e., John Nelson of Boston]. Was John1
Nelson in Boston as early as 1669? Probably not, as he was born 1653
or 1654. So the letter may indicate that Mary Temple Nelson actually
lived beyond 1669.
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
This source claims John1 Nelson also had an uncle called "Purbeck
Temple" ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 5iaL9i2Ts4
Temple" ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 5iaL9i2Ts4
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Robert Nelson and his wife, Helen, are believed to have had at least
two sons, Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), of Gray's Inn (father of the
immigrant, John Nelson) and Provost (or Provis) Nelson, who immigrated
to Accomack County, Virginia. Interestingly, I find that Boyd's
Marriage Index shows the marriage of Robert Nelson and Ellen Provost in
1609 in the parish of St. Peter Westcheap, London [Reference: Percival
Boyd, Boyd's Marriage Index, London, 33: 199 (Brides); 36: 149
(Grooms)]. Again, this date is probably correct, but needs
verification with the original parish records.
Miss Susie M. Ames edited two nice volumes of early Accomack Co.
records which might be helpful (I looked at them someplace, can't
remember where) ...
_County Court Records of Accomack-Northampton, Virginia, 1632-1640_,
ed. Susie M. Ames (Washington, American Historical Association, 1954 ;
Millwood, N.Y. : Kraus Reprint Co., 1975).
and
_County Court Records of Accomack-Northampton, Virginia, 1640-1645_,
ed. Susie M. Ames (Charlottesville, University Press of Virginia
c1973).
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Torrence's _Virginia Wills and Administrations, 1632-1800_, p. 311,
shows wills for
--Provost Nelson (Northampton, 1686)
--Provis Nelson (Accomack, 1721)
--Provost Nelson (Accomack, 1778)
shows wills for
--Provost Nelson (Northampton, 1686)
--Provis Nelson (Accomack, 1721)
--Provost Nelson (Accomack, 1778)
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Robert Nelson and his wife, Helen, are believed to have had at least
two sons, Robert Nelson, Esq. (died 1698), of Gray's Inn (father of the
immigrant, John Nelson) and Provost (or Provis) Nelson, who immigrated
to Accomack County, Virginia. Interestingly, I find that Boyd's
Marriage Index shows the marriage of Robert Nelson and Ellen Provost in
1609 in the parish of St. Peter Westcheap, London [Reference: Percival
Boyd, Boyd's Marriage Index, London, 33: 199 (Brides); 36: 149
(Grooms)]. Again, this date is probably correct, but needs
verification with the original parish records.
Torrence's _Virginia Wills and Administrations, 1632-1800_, p. 311,
shows wills for
--Provost Nelson (Northampton, 1686)
--Provis Nelson (Accomack, 1721)
--Provost Nelson (Accomack, 1778)
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John, Will, etc.
Mary (Temple) Nelson's maternal grandparents were Edmund Lee, Esq.
(died 1599), of Stantonbury and Pitstone (also known as
Pightlesthorne), Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Dorothy Browne.
Dorothy (Browne) Lee is a known descendant of King Edward III of
England.
The three documents further below concern Edmund Lee, Esq., husband of
Dorothy Browne. As per VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 463-464, Edmund Lee,
Esq., died in 1599, and was survived his two daughters and
co-heiresses, Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of John
Claver). This statement is supported by the first document cited
below.
The Visitation of Oxfordshire gives the following information regarding
Edmund Lee, Esq., in the pedigree of his mother's family, the Ashfield
family:
"Edmundus Lee duxit Dorothea sororem Anthonii Browne, Vicecomitis
Montacute." [Reference: Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574,
1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 165-170 (Ashfield pedigree)].
..
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
1. PRO Document, E 179/79/245 (Constat dated 9 June 1601 states that
the incomes of Dorothy and Maria Lee, daughters and co-heirs of the
late Edmund Lee, esq, of Stantonbury (died 20 March 1599), were in the
hands of Queen Elizabeth owing to the girls' minority).
2. SP 46/39/fo 9 (Fortescue to Fanshawe: to stay process against Edmund
Lee of Pitelthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
Sotherton, receiver in London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 14 Mar.
1594.
3. SP 46/39/fo 179 (Same to the same: to stay process against Edmund
Lee of Pitlesthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
Sotherton, late receiver of London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 6 Dec.
1594).
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Mary (Temple) Nelson's maternal grandparents were Edmund Lee, Esq.
(died 1599), of Stantonbury and Pitstone (also known as
Pightlesthorne), Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Dorothy Browne.
Dorothy (Browne) Lee is a known descendant of King Edward III of
England.
The three documents further below concern Edmund Lee, Esq., husband of
Dorothy Browne. As per VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 463-464, Edmund Lee,
Esq., died in 1599, and was survived his two daughters and
co-heiresses, Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of John
Claver). This statement is supported by the first document cited
below.
The Visitation of Oxfordshire gives the following information regarding
Edmund Lee, Esq., in the pedigree of his mother's family, the Ashfield
family:
"Edmundus Lee duxit Dorothea sororem Anthonii Browne, Vicecomitis
Montacute." [Reference: Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574,
1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 165-170 (Ashfield pedigree)].
..
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
1. PRO Document, E 179/79/245 (Constat dated 9 June 1601 states that
the incomes of Dorothy and Maria Lee, daughters and co-heirs of the
late Edmund Lee, esq, of Stantonbury (died 20 March 1599), were in the
hands of Queen Elizabeth owing to the girls' minority).
2. SP 46/39/fo 9 (Fortescue to Fanshawe: to stay process against Edmund
Lee of Pitelthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
Sotherton, receiver in London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 14 Mar.
1594.
3. SP 46/39/fo 179 (Same to the same: to stay process against Edmund
Lee of Pitlesthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
Sotherton, late receiver of London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 6 Dec.
1594).
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~
Below are two records from the helpful online National Archives
catalogue which refer to Avice (Ashfield) Lee, the great-grandmother of
Mary (Temple) Nelson. While the Visitation of Oxfordshire (H.S.P. 5)
calls her Amice (or "Amicia") Ashfield, she is Avice below and also in
VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 464. She died in 1599. The property
involved in the two records below was formerly owned by Avice's father,
Sir Edmund Ashfield, who died in 1578. Alexander and Edmund Fettiplace
named in the records were the nephews of Avice (Ashfield) Lee.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
Item #1:
E 133/6/802
John Taverner, surveyor of the queen's woods by South Trent, v. Edmund
Phetiplace, Alexander Phetiplace, Avice Lee, widow, and Edmund Lee.
Woods in the honor of Ewelme, called Swincombe Wood, Wast Wood,
Bigfrith, Black Wood, Hogtroughe, Chalk Wood, Buckslade and Chalisdene,
leased by the queen to Thomas Knevet, and by him assigned to Sir Edmund
Ashefelde. Timber trees reserved to the queen alleged to have been
felled by the defendants. Oxon.
30/31 Eliz. Mich.
Item #2
E 134/29Eliz/East17
help - opens in a new window: quick reference
The Queen v. Edmund Fetyplace, Alexander Fetyplace, Edmund Lee, Avice
Lee, widow.: "Felling of certaine timber beeches in the manor of
Ewelme, by Sir Edmond Ashfield, Knt., and Alexr. Fetyplace." Touching
waste and spoil in woods called Swynecombe Woods, &c.
29 Eliz 1587
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Doesn't the source below imply that John Temple (born 1593) died aged
two months?
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9GAZmoCBlU
two months?
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9GAZmoCBlU
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Le Neve has Sir Thomas Temple of Nova Scotia married to his own
step-mother, Frances (Blomfield) Alston ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... ston+odell
step-mother, Frances (Blomfield) Alston ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... ston+odell
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
John Brandon wrote:
< I wonder if Richard Johnson doesn't in fact have the date of death of
< Mary incorrectly stated. He mentions that Robert Nelson, in a letter
< to his brother-in-law in New England, states that his wife misses her
< brother and her son "Jacke" [i.e., John Nelson of Boston]. Was John1
< Nelson in Boston as early as 1669? Probably not, as he was born 1653
< or 1654. So the letter may indicate that Mary Temple Nelson actually
< lived beyond 1669.
Yes, I think this possibility should be considered.
DR
< I wonder if Richard Johnson doesn't in fact have the date of death of
< Mary incorrectly stated. He mentions that Robert Nelson, in a letter
< to his brother-in-law in New England, states that his wife misses her
< brother and her son "Jacke" [i.e., John Nelson of Boston]. Was John1
< Nelson in Boston as early as 1669? Probably not, as he was born 1653
< or 1654. So the letter may indicate that Mary Temple Nelson actually
< lived beyond 1669.
Yes, I think this possibility should be considered.
DR
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9GAZmoCBlU
As I noted a few years back, Nichols' _Leicestershire_, 4: 2: 958,
"Extracts from the Register of Sibbesdon [Leics.]," has records for the
Stowe Temple family interspersed with the Temple family of Temple Hall
[Leics.], who claimed a distant relationship with the Stowe group (and
shared a strong Puritanism with them, as well). Under BAPTISMS, we
find
1587. Susan, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Sept. 5.
1589. Hester, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 13.
1592. Peter, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Oct. 10.
1593. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 10.
1594. Martha, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 9.
1597. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 26.
1599. Katharine, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 15.
1602. Fanna[sic] - Sibilla, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. born ____
21, baptized the 24th.
1604. Thomas, son of sir Thomas Temple, knt. April 13.
1614. Thomas, son of sir John Temple, knt. Jan. 10.
1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17.
1617. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 14.
1619. Hester, daughter of sir John Temple. Sept. 5.
1620. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 6.
1622. Edmund, son of sir John Temple. June 6.
1623. Mary, daughter of of sir John Temple. Aug. 5.
The BURIALS (far fewer in number), while showing that Jana-Sibilla was
buried 8 Feb. 1602 [? sic], do not include a John, son of Thomas.
However, the baptism of the second John in 1597 may lend credibility to
Linda Levy Peck's statement that John (b. 1593) died "at two months."
The Thomas, son of Sir John, baptised in 1614, is usually said to be
Sir Thomas of New England and Nova Scotia. Yet it's quite a stretch if
he was really the son of John (b. 1597), who was apparently already a
knight at age 17!
I really don't know how to resolve these problems; I suppose someone
may have miscopied some dates someplace.
---------
Doug, I have a date of death for Frances, Sir John Temple's second
wife. See _Bibliotheca Topographica Britannica_, vol. 4, p. 55 ("An
Historical Account of the Parish of Odell, in the County of Bedford,"
by Oliver St. John Cooper), which records her M.I. (no mention of an
M.I. for Sir John Temple) --
Here lie interred the Bodies of FRANCES the Wife of THOMAS ALSTON, of
Polstead, in Suffolk, Gent. (who was buried at NEUTON, in the said
Countye) by whom she had Issue 4 SONS; WILLM, THOS, EDWD, and JOHN,
and one Daughter FRANCES: She was afterwards married to SR JOHN
TEMPLE, of Stanton, in the County of Bucks : being Daughter of MR.
BLOMFIELD. She died Sept. 1, 1644. [2 of her sons also mentioned in
the M.I.]
As I noted a few years back, Nichols' _Leicestershire_, 4: 2: 958,
"Extracts from the Register of Sibbesdon [Leics.]," has records for the
Stowe Temple family interspersed with the Temple family of Temple Hall
[Leics.], who claimed a distant relationship with the Stowe group (and
shared a strong Puritanism with them, as well). Under BAPTISMS, we
find
1587. Susan, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Sept. 5.
1589. Hester, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 13.
1592. Peter, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Oct. 10.
1593. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 10.
1594. Martha, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 9.
1597. John, son of Thomas Temple, esq. Jan. 26.
1599. Katharine, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. Nov. 15.
1602. Fanna[sic] - Sibilla, daughter of Thomas Temple, esq. born ____
21, baptized the 24th.
1604. Thomas, son of sir Thomas Temple, knt. April 13.
1614. Thomas, son of sir John Temple, knt. Jan. 10.
1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17.
1617. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 14.
1619. Hester, daughter of sir John Temple. Sept. 5.
1620. John, son of sir John Temple. Nov. 6.
1622. Edmund, son of sir John Temple. June 6.
1623. Mary, daughter of of sir John Temple. Aug. 5.
The BURIALS (far fewer in number), while showing that Jana-Sibilla was
buried 8 Feb. 1602 [? sic], do not include a John, son of Thomas.
However, the baptism of the second John in 1597 may lend credibility to
Linda Levy Peck's statement that John (b. 1593) died "at two months."
The Thomas, son of Sir John, baptised in 1614, is usually said to be
Sir Thomas of New England and Nova Scotia. Yet it's quite a stretch if
he was really the son of John (b. 1597), who was apparently already a
knight at age 17!
I really don't know how to resolve these problems; I suppose someone
may have miscopied some dates someplace.
---------
Doug, I have a date of death for Frances, Sir John Temple's second
wife. See _Bibliotheca Topographica Britannica_, vol. 4, p. 55 ("An
Historical Account of the Parish of Odell, in the County of Bedford,"
by Oliver St. John Cooper), which records her M.I. (no mention of an
M.I. for Sir John Temple) --
Here lie interred the Bodies of FRANCES the Wife of THOMAS ALSTON, of
Polstead, in Suffolk, Gent. (who was buried at NEUTON, in the said
Countye) by whom she had Issue 4 SONS; WILLM, THOS, EDWD, and JOHN,
and one Daughter FRANCES: She was afterwards married to SR JOHN
TEMPLE, of Stanton, in the County of Bucks : being Daughter of MR.
BLOMFIELD. She died Sept. 1, 1644. [2 of her sons also mentioned in
the M.I.]
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Will of Dame Frances Temple, widow of Odell, Bedfordshire, is avail.
online (PROB 11/201, 9 Aug. 1647).
online (PROB 11/201, 9 Aug. 1647).
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my earlier post, I noted that the immigrant, John Nelson's
great-grandmother, Dorothy Browne, wife of Edmund Lee, Esq., of
Pitstone and Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, had two daughter by her Lee
marriage, namely Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
John Claver). Both daughters are mentioned in VCH Buckingham, 4
(1927): 464.
I checked the 1653 PCC will of Dorothy Browne, widow successively of
Edmund Lee, Esq., _____ Wolverstone, and William Ascue (or Ayscough).
In her will she names her son, John Wolverstone; her daughter, Mary,
wife of Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk; her [grand]daughter,
Dorothy Alston; her grandson, Thomas Temple; and various Ascue
step-children.
Since locating this will, I've found the marriage of Mary (Lee) Claver
to Thomas Tyrrell in the IGI. The IGI shows that Mary Clavers and
Thomas Tyrrell were married at St. Lawrence Pountney, London 18 Feb.
1625. This marriage record confirms that Mary Lee married (1st) John
Claver (or Clavers), and (2nd) Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk.
Elsewhere, I've learned that Dorothy Browne's third husband, William
Ascue (or Ayscough), Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to King Charles I,
was the second son of Edward Ascue (or Ayscough), of Nun Cotham,
Lincolnshire, by Ursula, daughter of Henry Skipwith [see Maddison,
Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68 (Ayscough pedigree)].
By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England.
If anyone has any further particulars on Lee, Wolverstone, Claver(s),
Tyrrell, or Ascue families, I'd appreciate it if they would post what
information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear John, Will, etc.
<
< Mary (Temple) Nelson's maternal grandparents were Edmund Lee, Esq.
< (died 1599), of Stantonbury and Pitstone (also known as
< Pightlesthorne), Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Dorothy Browne.
< Dorothy (Browne) Lee is a known descendant of King Edward III of
< England.
<
< The three documents further below concern Edmund Lee, Esq., husband
of
< Dorothy Browne. As per VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 463-464, Edmund
Lee,
< Esq., died in 1599, and was survived his two daughters and
< co-heiresses, Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
John
< Claver). This statement is supported by the first document cited
< below.
<
< The Visitation of Oxfordshire gives the following information
regarding
< Edmund Lee, Esq., in the pedigree of his mother's family, the
Ashfield
< family:
<
< "Edmundus Lee duxit Dorothea sororem Anthonii Browne, Vicecomitis
< Montacute." [Reference: Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574,
< 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 165-170 (Ashfield pedigree)].
< .
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
< + + + + + + + + + +
< (http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
<
< 1. PRO Document, E 179/79/245 (Constat dated 9 June 1601 states that
< the incomes of Dorothy and Maria Lee, daughters and co-heirs of the
< late Edmund Lee, esq, of Stantonbury (died 20 March 1599), were in
the
< hands of Queen Elizabeth owing to the girls' minority).
<
< 2. SP 46/39/fo 9 (Fortescue to Fanshawe: to stay process against
Edmund
< Lee of Pitelthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
< Sotherton, receiver in London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 14 Mar.
< 1594.
<
< 3. SP 46/39/fo 179 (Same to the same: to stay process against Edmund
< Lee of Pitlesthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
< Sotherton, late receiver of London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 6
Dec.
< 1594).
In my earlier post, I noted that the immigrant, John Nelson's
great-grandmother, Dorothy Browne, wife of Edmund Lee, Esq., of
Pitstone and Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, had two daughter by her Lee
marriage, namely Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
John Claver). Both daughters are mentioned in VCH Buckingham, 4
(1927): 464.
I checked the 1653 PCC will of Dorothy Browne, widow successively of
Edmund Lee, Esq., _____ Wolverstone, and William Ascue (or Ayscough).
In her will she names her son, John Wolverstone; her daughter, Mary,
wife of Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk; her [grand]daughter,
Dorothy Alston; her grandson, Thomas Temple; and various Ascue
step-children.
Since locating this will, I've found the marriage of Mary (Lee) Claver
to Thomas Tyrrell in the IGI. The IGI shows that Mary Clavers and
Thomas Tyrrell were married at St. Lawrence Pountney, London 18 Feb.
1625. This marriage record confirms that Mary Lee married (1st) John
Claver (or Clavers), and (2nd) Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk.
Elsewhere, I've learned that Dorothy Browne's third husband, William
Ascue (or Ayscough), Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to King Charles I,
was the second son of Edward Ascue (or Ayscough), of Nun Cotham,
Lincolnshire, by Ursula, daughter of Henry Skipwith [see Maddison,
Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68 (Ayscough pedigree)].
By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England.
If anyone has any further particulars on Lee, Wolverstone, Claver(s),
Tyrrell, or Ascue families, I'd appreciate it if they would post what
information they have here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear John, Will, etc.
<
< Mary (Temple) Nelson's maternal grandparents were Edmund Lee, Esq.
< (died 1599), of Stantonbury and Pitstone (also known as
< Pightlesthorne), Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Dorothy Browne.
< Dorothy (Browne) Lee is a known descendant of King Edward III of
< England.
<
< The three documents further below concern Edmund Lee, Esq., husband
of
< Dorothy Browne. As per VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 463-464, Edmund
Lee,
< Esq., died in 1599, and was survived his two daughters and
< co-heiresses, Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
John
< Claver). This statement is supported by the first document cited
< below.
<
< The Visitation of Oxfordshire gives the following information
regarding
< Edmund Lee, Esq., in the pedigree of his mother's family, the
Ashfield
< family:
<
< "Edmundus Lee duxit Dorothea sororem Anthonii Browne, Vicecomitis
< Montacute." [Reference: Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574,
< 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 165-170 (Ashfield pedigree)].
< .
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
< + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives catalogue
< (http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
<
< 1. PRO Document, E 179/79/245 (Constat dated 9 June 1601 states that
< the incomes of Dorothy and Maria Lee, daughters and co-heirs of the
< late Edmund Lee, esq, of Stantonbury (died 20 March 1599), were in
the
< hands of Queen Elizabeth owing to the girls' minority).
<
< 2. SP 46/39/fo 9 (Fortescue to Fanshawe: to stay process against
Edmund
< Lee of Pitelthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
< Sotherton, receiver in London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 14 Mar.
< 1594.
<
< 3. SP 46/39/fo 179 (Same to the same: to stay process against Edmund
< Lee of Pitlesthorne [Pitstone], co. Buckingham, a surety of George
< Sotherton, late receiver of London and Middlesex; the Wardrobe; 6
Dec.
< 1594).
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following information is given for Sir George Ayscough, Admiral of
England, in Maddison, Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68
(Ayscough pedigree). Sir George Ayscough was the step-brother of the
immigrant, John Nelson's grandmother, Lady Dorothy (Lee) Temple.
"Sir George Ayscough, Admiral of England, temp. Charles I. and II;
knighted at Whitehall 9 Augus 1641; lived at Ham, parish of Chertsey,
Surrey; 'returned from a severe restraint in Holland, and kissed the
King's hand 12 Nov. 1667;' married Mary, daughter of Martin Fotherby,
Lord Bishop of Salisbury, and widow of John Boys. They had a son
George, baptized at St. Giles-in-the-Fields 20 Jan. 1644-5." END OF
QUOTE.
Sir George Ayscough's father is identified by Maddison as:
"William Ayscough, Gentleman of Privy Chamber to Charles I. He and his
wife are mentioned in his father's wiil 31 August 1616." END OF QUOTE.
The name of William Ayscough's wives (the last being Dorothy Browne)
are not mentioned by Maddison.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< In my earlier post, I noted that the immigrant, John Nelson's
< great-grandmother, Dorothy Browne, wife of Edmund Lee, Esq., of
< Pitstone and Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, had two daughter by her
Lee
< marriage, namely Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
< John Claver). Both daughters are mentioned in VCH Buckingham, 4
< (1927): 464.
<
< I checked the 1653 PCC will of Dorothy Browne, widow successively of
< Edmund Lee, Esq., _____ Wolverstone, and William Ascue (or Ayscough).
< In her will she names her son, John Wolverstone; her daughter, Mary,
< wife of Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk; her [grand]daughter,
< Dorothy Alston; her grandson, Thomas Temple; and various Ascue
< step-children.
<
< Since locating this will, I've found the marriage of Mary (Lee)
Claver
< to Thomas Tyrrell in the IGI. The IGI shows that Mary Clavers and
< Thomas Tyrrell were married at St. Lawrence Pountney, London 18 Feb.
< 1625. This marriage record confirms that Mary Lee married (1st) John
< Claver (or Clavers), and (2nd) Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk.
<
< Elsewhere, I've learned that Dorothy Browne's third husband, William
< Ascue (or Ayscough), Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to King Charles
I,
< was the second son of Edward Ascue (or Ayscough), of Nun Cotham,
< Lincolnshire, by Ursula, daughter of Henry Skipwith [see Maddison,
< Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68 (Ayscough pedigree)].
< By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
< Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England.
<
< If anyone has any further particulars on Lee, Wolverstone, Claver(s),
< Tyrrell, or Ascue families, I'd appreciate it if they would post what
< information they have here on the newsgroup.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
The following information is given for Sir George Ayscough, Admiral of
England, in Maddison, Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68
(Ayscough pedigree). Sir George Ayscough was the step-brother of the
immigrant, John Nelson's grandmother, Lady Dorothy (Lee) Temple.
"Sir George Ayscough, Admiral of England, temp. Charles I. and II;
knighted at Whitehall 9 Augus 1641; lived at Ham, parish of Chertsey,
Surrey; 'returned from a severe restraint in Holland, and kissed the
King's hand 12 Nov. 1667;' married Mary, daughter of Martin Fotherby,
Lord Bishop of Salisbury, and widow of John Boys. They had a son
George, baptized at St. Giles-in-the-Fields 20 Jan. 1644-5." END OF
QUOTE.
Sir George Ayscough's father is identified by Maddison as:
"William Ayscough, Gentleman of Privy Chamber to Charles I. He and his
wife are mentioned in his father's wiil 31 August 1616." END OF QUOTE.
The name of William Ayscough's wives (the last being Dorothy Browne)
are not mentioned by Maddison.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< In my earlier post, I noted that the immigrant, John Nelson's
< great-grandmother, Dorothy Browne, wife of Edmund Lee, Esq., of
< Pitstone and Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, had two daughter by her
Lee
< marriage, namely Dorothy (wife of Sir John Temple) and Mary (wife of
< John Claver). Both daughters are mentioned in VCH Buckingham, 4
< (1927): 464.
<
< I checked the 1653 PCC will of Dorothy Browne, widow successively of
< Edmund Lee, Esq., _____ Wolverstone, and William Ascue (or Ayscough).
< In her will she names her son, John Wolverstone; her daughter, Mary,
< wife of Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk; her [grand]daughter,
< Dorothy Alston; her grandson, Thomas Temple; and various Ascue
< step-children.
<
< Since locating this will, I've found the marriage of Mary (Lee)
Claver
< to Thomas Tyrrell in the IGI. The IGI shows that Mary Clavers and
< Thomas Tyrrell were married at St. Lawrence Pountney, London 18 Feb.
< 1625. This marriage record confirms that Mary Lee married (1st) John
< Claver (or Clavers), and (2nd) Thomas Tyrrell, of Gipping, Suffolk.
<
< Elsewhere, I've learned that Dorothy Browne's third husband, William
< Ascue (or Ayscough), Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to King Charles
I,
< was the second son of Edward Ascue (or Ayscough), of Nun Cotham,
< Lincolnshire, by Ursula, daughter of Henry Skipwith [see Maddison,
< Lincolnshire Peds. 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 58-68 (Ayscough pedigree)].
< By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
< Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England.
<
< If anyone has any further particulars on Lee, Wolverstone, Claver(s),
< Tyrrell, or Ascue families, I'd appreciate it if they would post what
< information they have here on the newsgroup.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<
< Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Snippet concerning Sir Thomas Temple's brothers, Edward and Purbeck ...
(apparently) ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... ury&pgis=1
(apparently) ...
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... ury&pgis=1
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
John Brandon wrote:
Although I thought it was EDMUND Temple who married Eleanor Harvey ...
Snippet concerning Sir Thomas Temple's brothers, Edward and Purbeck ...
(apparently) ...
Although I thought it was EDMUND Temple who married Eleanor Harvey ...
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
W. de G. Birch, _Catalogue of Seals in the Department of Manuscripts in
the British Museum_, 3:581-2:
Sir John Temple, of Bidlesden, co. Buck.
13,886. [A.D. 1626.] Red: indistinct. [dimensions.]
[Add. ch. 35,290.]
Oval: an ornamental shield of arms: two bars each charged with three
martlets, TEMPLE.
Beaded borders.
13,887. [A.D. 1630.] Another. [Add. ch. 35,291.]
Seal used by Dame Frances Temple, wife of Sir JOHN TEMPLE. of
Bidlesden.
13,888. [A.D. 1630.] Red: indistinct. [Add. ch. 35,291.]
The arms described are definitely those of the Temple family of Stowe.
Does anyone have thoughts about the possibility this John Temple was
baptized in 1597, and was a knight and father by 1614? (Burke's
_Peerage_ worsened the dilemma by claiming another son Peter, born the
year before Sir Thomas: in 1613!).
I wonder if it's possible John and Susan (Spencer) Temple had two sons
called John: Sir John of Stanton Bury (who married Dorothy Lee) and
John, Esq., of Frankton (married Anne, sister of Richard Tomlins,
M.P.)?
On the other hand, Sir John seems to have been quite lively and
precocious ...
from A2A --
East Kent Archives Centre: New Romney Borough [NR/A - NR/I]
NEW ROMNEY BOROUGH
RESTRAINT OF PASSAGE
FILE - From Richard Marshe - ref. NR/CPw/210 - date: 19 Aug.
1616
[from Scope and Content] For the apprehension of two young
gentlemen of Buckinghamshire, Sir John Temple and Arthur Longfield, who
have quarrelled and are reported to be going abroad to fight, with
descriptions.
the British Museum_, 3:581-2:
Sir John Temple, of Bidlesden, co. Buck.
13,886. [A.D. 1626.] Red: indistinct. [dimensions.]
[Add. ch. 35,290.]
Oval: an ornamental shield of arms: two bars each charged with three
martlets, TEMPLE.
Beaded borders.
13,887. [A.D. 1630.] Another. [Add. ch. 35,291.]
Seal used by Dame Frances Temple, wife of Sir JOHN TEMPLE. of
Bidlesden.
13,888. [A.D. 1630.] Red: indistinct. [Add. ch. 35,291.]
The arms described are definitely those of the Temple family of Stowe.
Does anyone have thoughts about the possibility this John Temple was
baptized in 1597, and was a knight and father by 1614? (Burke's
_Peerage_ worsened the dilemma by claiming another son Peter, born the
year before Sir Thomas: in 1613!).
I wonder if it's possible John and Susan (Spencer) Temple had two sons
called John: Sir John of Stanton Bury (who married Dorothy Lee) and
John, Esq., of Frankton (married Anne, sister of Richard Tomlins,
M.P.)?
On the other hand, Sir John seems to have been quite lively and
precocious ...
from A2A --
East Kent Archives Centre: New Romney Borough [NR/A - NR/I]
NEW ROMNEY BOROUGH
RESTRAINT OF PASSAGE
FILE - From Richard Marshe - ref. NR/CPw/210 - date: 19 Aug.
1616
[from Scope and Content] For the apprehension of two young
gentlemen of Buckinghamshire, Sir John Temple and Arthur Longfield, who
have quarrelled and are reported to be going abroad to fight, with
descriptions.