De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

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Gjest

De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2006 19:30:02

In combing through several articles in VCH Cambridge, I have been able
to reconstruct some ancestry for the De la Haye family of Shepreth,
which follows.

PICOT

1 Eustace PICOT
---------------------------------------------

Succeeded Michael PICOT (occurs 1140's) at Burlewas, Cambs.

Held Burlewas (Burdeleys) manor, co Cambridge
Rampton manor was probably part of the knight's fee held of Hugh of
Dover by Eustace Picot in 1166

Barton, Cambridgeshire - ref. KCAR/6/2/013
Early charters and deeds
FILE - Charter - ref. BAR/13 - date: c.1200-c.1300
[from Scope and Content] Grant from Hugh, son of Arnaldi [Ernaldi] of
Barton, to Geoffrey, son of Eustace of Maddingele [Madingley], of half
an acre of land in Barton. A brown seal is attached.

Other children:
Geoffrey

Sources1,2,3

NOTE:
In 1086 Madingley (incl. Burlewas and Marhams/Harlastons, which
descended through the Burdeleys) was held by Picot the Sheriff of
Cambs.

In 1066 Rampton, Cambs, was among the lands held by Picot, the Sheriff
of Cambs. His tenant in 1086 was Roger (his brother?).

Children: Lauretta (<1141-1224)

1.1 Lauretta PICOT
---------------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1141
Death: 1224

Sources4,2

Spouse: Hugh de BURDELEYS
Death: bef 1181

Other children:
5 more sons
2 daughters

Sources5,2

Children: William de (-~1229)

1.1.1 William de BURDELEYS
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Burdeleys manor, co Cambridge, England
Death: abt 1229

Held Burlewas/Burdeleys manor, co Cambridge
Probably held Madingley, co Cambridge as well

Other children:
William de Burdeleys gave 20 a. to Robert the clerk, husband of his
sister Nichole by 1219;
d. 1233 s.p.
Geoffrey d. 1264
Hugh 1251 s.p.

C 143/152/20
Geoffrey de Burdeleys to grant the manor of Madingley to Simon son of
Geoffrey de Burdeleys, retaining the manors of Comberton and Cottenham.
Camb.
15 EDWARD II.

Sources6,7

Spouse: Beatrice

Claimed dower in 2 carucates in Madingley, co Cambridge 1229

Sources1

Children: Nicole de

1.1.1.1 Nicole de BURDELEYS
---------------------------------------------

Sources8

Spouse: Robert of MADINGLEY

By 1219 William de Burdeley gave 30 a. at Marhams/Harlestons, co
Cambridge, to Robert the clerk, husband to his sister Nichol.

Sources8


Children: William of

1.1.1.1.1 William of MADINGLEY
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge, England

Of Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge

Sources8

Spouse: NN BARRINGTON
Father: Ralph BARRINGTON (-~1253)

Other children:
Henry, Rector; d. 1322
NN m. Thomas at Mill of Barrington > son Richard

Sources9

Children: Ellen
Robert of (-1321)
Henry
NN

1.1.1.1.1.1 Ellen
---------------------------------------------

Sources9,10

Spouse: Sir William de la HAYE
Birth: Of De la Hayes, Papworth Everard and Shepreth, co Cambridge,
England
Death: 1316
Father: John de la HAYE

Of De la Hayes, Papworth Everard and Shepreth, co Cambridge
License for him and w. Ellen to alienate mess. and lands at Little
Buskeby, co York, to
Rievaulx Abbey 1285
Commissioner in co Cambridge 1286 (P.R.)
Summoned to Council at Rochester 1297
Summoned against the Scots 1297, 1301
Called to purvey provisions from cos Cambridge and Huntingdon for the
army against the
Scots 1306
Knight of the Shire for co Cambridge 1311
Conservator of Peace, co Huntingdon 1314

Sources11,14,13

PROBLEM:
wife was Joane (no surname) [15]
wife (no first name) was dau of NN Barrington and sister of Sir Robert
of Madingley [9]
wife was Ellen (no surname) [12]

Children: John de la (-~1340)

1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir John de la HAYE
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Shepereth, De la Hayes and Papworth Everard, co Cambridge,
England
Death: abt 1340

Of Shepereth, De la Hayes and Papworth Everard, co Cambridge
Held a market and a fair at Shepreth 5 Apr 1326

Knight

Sources17,10,18,19

Spouse: Joane

Sources10


Children: William de la (-~1349)

1.1.1.1.1.2 Sir Robert of MADINGLEY
---------------------------------------------
Birth: Of Marhams/Harlestons and Heslerton, co Cambridge, England
Death: 1321

Of Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge
Inherited Heslerton manor, co Cambridge, on the death of his uncle
Giles Barrington
(fl 1264-1308)
Judge under Edward II

SC 8/32/1587
Petitioners: Community of Bedfordshire Addressees: King and council
Places mentioned: Bedfordshire Other people mentioned: John de
Everesdon; Robert de Maddingle (Madingley); Roger de Belers Nature of
request: The community of Bedfordshire state that although John de
Everesdon, Robert de Maddingle and Roger de Belers were appointed to
inquire into sheriffs and their bailiffs in their county, and John de
Everesdon came one day and received several bills from them, nothing
has been done, with the result that the sheriffs have continued to
harass those who presented the bills.
[1320]

SC 8/86/4284
Petitioners: Jacomine de Merk. Addressees: King and council. Places
mentioned: Lindsell, [Essex]. Other people mentioned: John de
Lacheleygh; Robert de Maddingle (Madingley), justice; Ralph Giffard,
sheriff of Essex; Nature of request: Jacomine de Merk complains that
when John de Lacheleygh was attainted of fishing in her fishponds at
Lindsell, against her will and the peace of the King, and of other
trespasses against her, and was handed over to Ralph Giffard, then
sheriff of Essex, to be kept in prison until he had made satisfaction
both to Jacomine and to the King, Giffard released him before he had
made satisfaction to Jacomine.
[1320]

Sources21,22

Spouse: Emma COLVILLE

SC 8/161/8018
Petitioners: Emma de Colevile (Coleville). Addressees: King and
council. Places mentioned: Oakington, [Cambridgeshire]; Waterbeach,
[Cambridgeshire]. Other people mentioned: Giles Barynton (Barrington),
son of . . . de Barrington; Nicholas de Colevile (Coleville); William
le Clerk; Roger de Fokelton, servant of Giles Barrington; Nicholas
Seriaunt of Waterbeach; Richard Godefrey (Godfrey) of Waterbeach;
Robert Hayt of Waterbeach; Simon .
[1298]

Sources20,23

Children: Alice (-1375)

1.1.1.1.1.2.1 Alice MADINGLEY
---------------------------------------------
Death: by May 1375

Held Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge until she died abt. 1375

Recovered the manor of Heslarton in 1328 after her father's sisters
attempted to disseize her.

Granted the reversion on her death and that of Sir John Salvayn,
possibly her son-in-law, to Michaelhouse, to support a chantry and two
fellowships 1356.

Leased her demesne and manor to the college 1364 and made the grant
absolute in 1374, in return for a £30 annuity.

C 143/382/1
Alice late the wife of Thomas de Heselarton, knight, to grant the manor
of Barrington, and messuages, land, and rent in Harston, Hauxton,
Newton, Babraham, and Hinxton to William de Gotham, master of Michael
House, Cambridge, the scholars of the same, and their successors,
retaining land in Herts.
47 EDWARD III.

Sources24,25

Spouse: Sir Thomas HESLERTON
Birth: Of Yorkshire, England
Death: abt 1355 [24]

Of Yorkshire

Sources24


1.1.1.1.1.3 Henry
---------------------------------------------

Sources20

1.1.1.1.1.4 NN
---------------------------------------------

Sources20

Spouse: Thomas at Mill of Barrington

Sources20


Children: Richard

1.1.1.1.1.4.1 Richard
---------------------------------------------

Sources20


Sources

1. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 pp 166-71
(Burdeleys).
2. Keats-Rohan, Katherine S.B., PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING IN
ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166, Boydell Press, 1999 (vol 1 DP), 2002 (vol
2 DD), v 2 p 1070.
3. A2A (Access to Archives) WEBSITE, http://www.a2a.org.uk/, Barton,
Cambridgeshire - ref. KCAR/6/2/013 - ref. BAR/13.
4. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 pp 166-71
(Burdeleys, Rampton).
5. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 p 212-14
(Rampton).
6. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 pp 166-71
(Burdeleys, Harlestons), 195-9.
7. "PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE CATALOG (PROCAT),"
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline>, C 143/152/20.
8. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 pp 166-71.
9. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149, v 8 p 182.
10. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90.
11. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 254, v 8 p 168,
v 9 p 359.
12. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v 81 p 213.
13. Deputy Keeper of the Records, CALENDAR OF CLOSE ROLLS PRESERVED IN
THE PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE., Nendeln, Liechtenstein : Kraus Reprint, 1970
(Originally published: London : H.M.S.O.), Edw II (1313-1318) v 2 p
355.
14. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90; v 81 p 213.
15. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90 .
16. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 254, v 8 p 168,
v 9 p 359.
17. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 254, v 8 p
168,182, v 9 p 359.
18. Burke, Sir Bernard., GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF DORMANT, ABEYANT,
FORFEITED, AND EXTINCT PEERAGES OF GREAT BRITAIN., London: Harrison,
1866., (1883) p 463.
19. GAZETTEER OF MARKETS AND FAIRS IN ENGLAND AND WALES TO 1516,
(Online book), http://www.history.ac.uk./cmh/gaz/gazweb2.html, Foxton.
20. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149.
21. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149, v 8 p 182,
v 9 pp 166-71.
22. "PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE CATALOG (PROCAT),"
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline>, SC 8/32/1587; SC
8/86/4284.
23. "PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE CATALOG (PROCAT),"
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline>, SC 8/161/8018.
24. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149, v 9 pp
166-71.
25. "PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE CATALOG (PROCAT),"
<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline>, C 143/382/1.



BARRINGTON

1 Warin BARRINGTON
---------------------------------------------

Sources1

Children: Ralph (-~1253)

1.1 Ralph BARRINGTON
---------------------------------------------
Death: abt 1253

Other children:
Giles fl 1264-1308
Warin

Sources1

Children: NN

1.1.1 NN BARRINGTON
---------------------------------------------
Sources2

Spouse: William of MADINGLEY
Birth: Of Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge, England
Father: Robert of MADINGLEY
Mother: Nicole de BURDELEYS

Of Marhams/Harlestons, co Cambridge

Sources3

Children: Ellen (see above)
Robert(-1321) m. Emma Colville
Henry, Rector; d. 1322
NN m. Thomas at Mill of Barrington > son Richard

---------------------------------------------

Sources

1. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149.
2. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 149, v 8 p 182.
3. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 9 pp 166-71.
4. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90.
5. VICTORIA COUNTY HISTORIES OF ENGLAND., Folkestone: Reprinted by
Dawsons of Pall Mall; Published for the University of London Institute
of Historical Reseacrch, 1971., pt 4 (Cambridge) v 5 p 254, v 8 p 168,
v 9 p 359.
6. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v 81 p 213.
7. Deputy Keeper of the Records, CALENDAR OF CLOSE ROLLS PRESERVED IN
THE PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE., Nendeln, Liechtenstein : Kraus Reprint, 1970
(Originally published: London : H.M.S.O.), Edw II (1313-1318) v 2 p
355.
8. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90; v 81 p 213.
9. PUBLICATIONS OF THE HARLEIAN SOCIETY., London, various editors and
dates., v. 41 p 90 .

I welcome comments, additions and corrections.

Mardi

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2006 19:53:13

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

In combing through several articles in VCH Cambridge, I have been able
to reconstruct some ancestry for the De la Haye family of Shepreth,
which follows.

Nice work, Mardi - many thanks for posting this. I I look forward to
going through the details as soon as I have the opportunity.

Best wishes

Michael

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2006 22:43:34

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

Next problem. I have not been able to put together the ancestry for
John Engaine, who m. Margaret de la Haye. The accounts in VCH are
disjointed and muddled. Does anyone have information on his line?

Mardi

I see you are determined - excellent!

According to Roskell's HoPVol 2, p 766 sub Dengaine, Sir John d'Engaine
of Teversham (c1339-1394/5) was son and heir of Sir John d'Engaine of
Teversham by his wife Joan; he was Sheriff of Cambs & Hunts 1376-1377,
and returned as MP for the county of Cambs [knight of the shire] twice
in 1388; JP from 1379; HoP says:

"[he] came from a branch of the Dengaine (sic) family, long established
at Taversham [sic; recte Teversham] and Stowe-cum-Quy in
Cambridgeshire, which also [pssessed the manor of Wareseley in
Huntingdonshire."

His father was also an MP for Cambs "in no fewer than 12 parliaments
between 1338 and 1362" died in August 1363.

His wife Margaret was the kinswoman and next heir to Alice, widow of
Sir Thomas Heslerton in "about 1375".

According to the 1619 Visitation of Cambridgeshire, the elder Sir John
was son of William Engaine of Teversham, but it seems a generation is
missing here, supplied by VCH sub Stow-cum-Quy & Teversham (see also
Long Stanton). His father was actually Richard Engaine, whom VCH says
was living in 1310 and whose widow, Parnel, in 1316 acquired Teversham.


From this point, the Visitation and VCH agree in relation to the
generations, if not the dates. Richard was in turn son of William

(under age in 1269; ff 1293 - VCH); William was son of Robert (ff 1249
- VCH; "53 Henry III" [sic] ie c1268 - Vis Cambs) by his wife Agnes (a
widow in 1261, according to VCH); Robert was [probably, says VCH] son
of another William (ff 1223 - VCH; 8 Henry III, agrees Vis Cambs); this
William was son of Robert Engaine (ff 10 Richard I & John - Vis Cambs;
Lord of Stow 1199-120 - VCH).

VCH provides the earliest ancestor I have come across: Robert Engaine's
mother Alice [quaere: should this be "Avice" - my handwriting is
ambiguous!]. She is said to have been living in 1207. However, it
hints at an earlier descent calling them "a cadet branch, seated at
Waresley, Hunts, of the Northants Engaines" (sub Stow-cum-Quy).

MA-R

alden@mindspring.com

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 21 feb 2006 00:46:49

VCH provides the earliest ancestor I have come across: Robert Engaine's
mother Alice [quaere: should this be "Avice" - my handwriting is
ambiguous!]. She is said to have been living in 1207. However, it
hints at an earlier descent calling them "a cadet branch, seated at
Waresley, Hunts, of the Northants Engaines" (sub Stow-cum-Quy).

MA-R

This is interesting thread. See Rosie's post of 2004-8-18 "Re:
Apparent CP?DD Conflict )de Lisle), part 1 and 2.

It would appear that the Avice you reference might be the Avice
Camerarius (married to NN d'Engaine, father of Robert) she talks about
in the post. See also DD, pps 200, 410. Farrer, Feudal Cambridgeshire,
p 121.

Doug Smith

On the Picot's of Racliffe-on-Soar see Douglas Richardson's earlier
posts.

alden@mindspring.com

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 21 feb 2006 00:55:55

Picot the Sheriff of Cambs mentioned in Mardi's original post was Picot
de Grentebridge who had a brother Roger. See DPI: 324.


Doug

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 feb 2006 01:01:34

Thanks for all the help here. I never thought to look in Roskell and
have it here at my desk. Will do so tonight. All the articles in VCH
have holes in them, but with the informatiion you both have provided,
it may come together. The Waresley, Hunts, article from VCH Hunts v 2
p 48-89 re: Gaynes or Engeynes Manor is online at
<http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=42517&strquery=Waresley>.

Mardi

alden@mindspring.com

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 21 feb 2006 01:44:15


Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 feb 2006 03:31:13

Yes, and I would love to turn up the connection between him, Michael
and Eustace. It seems likely that they are one family. Picot's son
Robert's descent is in Quy-cum-Stow, Cambs, if I remember right, but no
other sons are mentioned in the sources to which I have access. Maybe
we have a son of Roger rather than of Picot himself. A Roger was
Picot's tenant at Rampton, Cambs, in 1086. Keats-Rohan has very little
to say about this family.

Mardi

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2006 04:29:26

The information on the Teversham Engaines has been most helpful. I
discovered, in dredging up the sources, that Sir John's sister
Katherine m. Sir John Burgh, of Burgh, Cambs. That was another
dangling line in my database. Two for the price of one! Many thanks.

Mardi

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2006 06:23:56

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

The information on the Teversham Engaines has been most helpful. I
discovered, in dredging up the sources, that Sir John's sister
Katherine m. Sir John Burgh, of Burgh, Cambs. That was another
dangling line in my database. Two for the price of one! Many thanks.

Mardi

Did you get that from the Vis. Cambs? It shows that Sir John had two
sisters, Catherine (wife of Sir John Burgh - but according to HoP
apparently not ancestral to the Haseldens of Morden, FWIW) and
Elizabeth who is said to have married "- Grey of Wilton". There is a
brother as well - Thomas, whom I have not encountered in any other
source, although VCH sub Teversham has a brother *William*, "probably
[a] second son", who married and left issue.

Cheers

Michael

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2006 07:02:32

Here's something that might help. Yorkshire Archaeological Journal.
States this Sir John de Burgh married first Mary de Grey dau of Roger
de Grey by his wife Elizabeth dau of John Second Lord Hastings she bore
him two son's. Sir John de Burgh married 2nd in 1362 Katherine daughter
of John d'Engayne of Quy Cum Stow and Teversham co. Cambs by his wife
Joan. He had 3 daughters Elizabeth Margaret and Joan. Sir John died in
1393 and his wife Katherine died in 1409. In Katherine will she names
her son-in-law Sir John Ingoldesthorp and his wife Elizabeth. Also
names Margaret wife of Sir John Zouche and also her dau Joan Hasilden.
She also names her brother Thomas Dengayne and his wife. Joan the
Youngest daughter married 2nd in 1404 Sir William Harpeden later he
changed his name to Assenhull.
Hope this Helps
Mike Welch
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

The information on the Teversham Engaines has been most helpful. I
discovered, in dredging up the sources, that Sir John's sister
Katherine m. Sir John Burgh, of Burgh, Cambs. That was another
dangling line in my database. Two for the price of one! Many thanks.

Mardi

Did you get that from the Vis. Cambs? It shows that Sir John had two
sisters, Catherine (wife of Sir John Burgh - but according to HoP
apparently not ancestral to the Haseldens of Morden, FWIW) and
Elizabeth who is said to have married "- Grey of Wilton". There is a
brother as well - Thomas, whom I have not encountered in any other
source, although VCH sub Teversham has a brother *William*, "probably
[a] second son", who married and left issue.

Cheers

Michael

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2006 11:55:40

mwelch8442@yahoo.com schrieb:

Here's something that might help. Yorkshire Archaeological Journal.
States this Sir John de Burgh married first Mary de Grey dau of Roger
de Grey by his wife Elizabeth dau of John Second Lord Hastings she bore
him two son's. Sir John de Burgh married 2nd in 1362 Katherine daughter
of John d'Engayne of Quy Cum Stow and Teversham co. Cambs by his wife
Joan. He had 3 daughters Elizabeth Margaret and Joan. Sir John died in
1393 and his wife Katherine died in 1409. In Katherine will she names
her son-in-law Sir John Ingoldesthorp and his wife Elizabeth. Also
names Margaret wife of Sir John Zouche and also her dau Joan Hasilden.
She also names her brother Thomas Dengayne and his wife. Joan the
Youngest daughter married 2nd in 1404 Sir William Harpeden later he
changed his name to Assenhull.
Hope this Helps

Thanks, Mike - that is very useful. Not only does it confirm that Sir
John Engaine had a brother Thomas, but (assuming the marriage date of
his sister Catherine to Sir John Burgh - 1362 - is correct) it also
shows why Roskell states that Richard Haselden, who married firstly in
1379, could not have been the son of Thomas Haselden by Joan, daughter
of Sir John & Catherine Burgh.

I still have my doubts about the alleged marriage of a sister Elizabeth
Engaine to "- Grey of Wilton", as I have not seen this confirmed
elsewhere.

Regards

Michael

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 feb 2006 05:23:47

MA-R wrote:
VCH provides the earliest ancestor I have come across: Robert Engaine's

mother Alice [quaere: should this be "Avice" - my handwriting is
ambiguous!]

VCH Huntingdon v 2 p 48 gives Robert's father as Richard of Gt.
Staughton. Thus, he must be the husband of Avice mentioned in VCH
Cambridge v 10 pp 233-8 (Stow).

Mardi

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 feb 2006 08:17:27

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

MA-R wrote:
VCH provides the earliest ancestor I have come across: Robert Engaine's

mother Alice [quaere: should this be "Avice" - my handwriting is
ambiguous!]

VCH Huntingdon v 2 p 48 gives Robert's father as Richard of Gt.
Staughton. Thus, he must be the husband of Avice mentioned in VCH
Cambridge v 10 pp 233-8 (Stow).

Mardi

Isn't there a further problem with this identification, in that Richard
is otherwise believed to have married Sara Chesney? VCH Hunts seems a
little hesitant, noting Robert is "said to be" Richard's son.

Michael

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 feb 2006 17:31:36

You are right. I sailed right by that one. I do find a Richard who m
Sara Chesney in Gt Staughton (VCH Hunts v 2 p 361) and it seems that he
must be the same Richard. There are a lot of references in the
footnote that may help to confirm (or not). I have many sources for
this Richard, and will need to go back and revisit them. He was of
Pytchley as well as Gt Staughton and d. 1216/7 (the above mendioned VCH
article says he d. 1208) according to my notes. My notes do not
indicate a son Robert, but maybe he had another marriage to Avice, or
Robert's is not his son after all. Another conundrum for the sgm
detective squad.

Sutliff

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Sutliff » 24 feb 2006 18:27:46

Don't know whether of not these sources have been cited, but they may be
helpful to further identification:

Sanders: 16

J. Horace Round: "The Manor of Colne Engaine" (Transactions of the Essex
Archaelogical Society)[Colchester: Published by the Society at the Museum in
the Castle, 1903] VIII (New Series):194

Hap


<mardicar@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140712295.177910.314370@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
You are right. I sailed right by that one. I do find a Richard who m
Sara Chesney in Gt Staughton (VCH Hunts v 2 p 361) and it seems that he
must be the same Richard. There are a lot of references in the
footnote that may help to confirm (or not). I have many sources for
this Richard, and will need to go back and revisit them. He was of
Pytchley as well as Gt Staughton and d. 1216/7 (the above mendioned VCH
article says he d. 1208) according to my notes. My notes do not
indicate a son Robert, but maybe he had another marriage to Avice, or
Robert's is not his son after all. Another conundrum for the sgm
detective squad.

Gjest

Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 feb 2006 22:14:45

I realize that VCH also says in another article that Robert is "said to
be son" of Richard. Same Richard? Seems so, but........can we be
sure? I was wondering if he might have had another wife. Maybe he is
the son of a completely different couple. Just rambling.

Mardi

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