Trying to catch up on the latest group thinking on him, but the archives
don't seem to work. Perhaps it's even time to approach this problem again.
J Garner's database has Rainald de Dunstanville (c1110-1175) as illegit
son of Henry I and husband of Beatrice (or Mabel) FitzRichard and father
of various Dunstanville children, and one daughter called Beatrice de
Vaux who married William de Briwere.
My first problem is with the dual choice of names for Beatrice/Mabel,
supposedly a Clare offshoot. She is supposedly of Cardinan, Cornwall.
Cardinham Castle, in Cornwall, according to Genuki, was built by Richard
FitzTurold and his "de Cardinan" descendants held it for the next 200 years.
My second problem is with the daughter surnamed Vaux. She was supposedly
of Stoke, in Devon, while the rest of her "siblings" were from Cornwall.
My third problem is with the abundance of Dunstanvilles in Domesday
Descendants, including one Gundreda, sister of Rainald ("sometimes
alleged to have been a daughter of Henry I, because orderic Vitalis once
misleadingly labelled Henry's son Earl Rainald of Cornwall as 'de
Dunstanville'. DD by K-R)
If K-R believes this identity of Gundreda is wrong, then she believes
the identity of Rainald, Earl of Cornwall as being one and the same as
Rainald de Dunstanville is also wrong.
DD shows a different Rainald de Dunstanvilla, named from Denestanville,
Seine-Maritime. Walter de Dunstanville, with brothers Robert and Adam,
were probably sons or close kinsmen of Walter Dapifer mentioned in a
lated 11thC charter which named numerous other family members, including
Rainald, Humphrey, Robert, Philip, Hugh, Hadvisa, Gundreda, Rothais,
Beatrix, Marsia, Mabel, Avice and Eufemia, specifically stated as his
daughter. This Rainald de Dunstanville marrried Adelisa, dau and heiress
of Humphrey de Lisle. He died after 1129/30 when he and his sister
Gundreda occur on the Pipe Roll. He was still alive in 1121. He left two
sons, Robert (dsp 1167) and Alan, his eventual heir.
Henry I (c1068-1135) cannot be the father of this Rainald de
Dunstanville, the brother of Gundreda, if his son Rainald, Earl of
Cornwall was born about 1110.
According to CP, this illegit son of Henry I, was created Earl of
Cornwall in 1141. CP identifies him as Rainald de Dunstanville but this
is unlikely, if Rainald was already an adult in about 1094, when his
brother, Walter was already a father. CP also states Rainald de
Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall, dsp married.
The Garner database gives Rainald de Dunstanville (1110-1175, Earl of
Cornwall) numerous children: Reginald, Nicholas, Hawyse, Henry
FitzCount, Ursula, Sarah and Beatrice de Vaux. According to DD, (above)
he only left issue, Robert and Alan.
Other Dunstanvilles mentioned in DD:
ALAN. son of Rainald. Succeeded his childless elder brother Robert. Left
issue: Walter, Alan and Alice, wife of Thomas Basset.
ALAN. son of Alan, married Muriel dau of Emma de Langetot and Geoffrey
fitz William.
RICARDUS. Canon of Exeter and clerk to Bishop Robert II of Exeter
ROBERT. Son of Rainald (I). Dsp 1167. Heir: nephew Walter, son of Alan
WALTER. Brother of William
WALTER. Son of alan and heir of uncle Robert (d 1167). Uncle of Gilbert
Basset. Dead by 1194 when son Walter (by wife Sybil) was a minor
Strikes me that Rainald de Dunstanville and Rainald, Earl of Cornwall,
were completely different people with different timelines.
What is the latest thinking on this?
Renia
Rainald de Dunstaville
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Rainald de Dunstaville
Renia wrote:
There is a lot about him in the archives. My attempt to summarise the
discussion about Reynold and Gundred, from about 5 years ago, is here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... shtml#p108
Chris Phillips
Trying to catch up on the latest group thinking on him, but the archives
don't seem to work. Perhaps it's even time to approach this problem again.
There is a lot about him in the archives. My attempt to summarise the
discussion about Reynold and Gundred, from about 5 years ago, is here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... shtml#p108
Chris Phillips
-
Renia
Re: Rainald de Dunstaville
Chris Phillips wrote:
OK, thanks Chris.
Renia wrote:
Trying to catch up on the latest group thinking on him, but the archives
don't seem to work. Perhaps it's even time to approach this problem again.
There is a lot about him in the archives. My attempt to summarise the
discussion about Reynold and Gundred, from about 5 years ago, is here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... shtml#p108
Chris Phillips
OK, thanks Chris.
-
Robin Haigh
Re: Rainald de Dunstaville
Did Rainald Earl of Cornwall have any daughters? CP only says he died
without legitimate male issue, and many people do show legitimate daughters.
But any such daughters would presumably have been co-heiresses of the
revenues of Cornwall, which seem to have reverted to the Crown by the time
of King John, who according to CP farmed them out to the Earl's illegitimate
son Henry in 1215. Do we conclude that any legitimate daughters must have
been dead by that time, without surviving descendants?
--
RSH
without legitimate male issue, and many people do show legitimate daughters.
But any such daughters would presumably have been co-heiresses of the
revenues of Cornwall, which seem to have reverted to the Crown by the time
of King John, who according to CP farmed them out to the Earl's illegitimate
son Henry in 1215. Do we conclude that any legitimate daughters must have
been dead by that time, without surviving descendants?
--
RSH
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Rainald de Dunstaville
Dear Robin ~
In answer to your question, yes, Reynold Fitz Roy (or de Mortain), Earl
of Cornwall (illegitimate son of King Henry I of England), had several
daughters. One of them was Emme, wife of Guy V de Laval, seigneur of
Laval. Emme's identity is known from a charter of Evron given by Fulk
de Saint John, which was confirmed by "venerabilis Emma domina de
Lavalle, filia Reginaldi comitis Cornubiensis" [Reference: Abbé A.
Angot, Généalogies Féodales Mayennaises du XIe au XIIIe Siècle
(1942): 294]. Emme's husband, Guy V de Laval, occurs in the records in
the period, 1144 to 1194 [Reference: Bertrand de Broussillon and Paul
de Farcy, Sigillographie des Seigneurs de Laval, 1095-1605 (1888):
7-14].
I've copied below a transcript of a charter dated 1180 in which Emme
appears with her husband, Guy V de Laval, his brother Hamon, and their
son, Guy VI de Laval. This charter was witnessed by Raoul II de
Fougères (died 1194), seigneur of Fougères, who is a lineal ancestor
of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March.
"Guido de Lavalle universis Ecclesie filiis salutem. Quia ex
litteraram munimine major accedit agnitio, sigilli mei attestatione
notum volo fieri quod ego assensu Guidonis filii mei et Hamonis fratris
mei et Emma uxoris mei, in remissione peccatorum, coustumam mihi
pertinentem libere et quiete monachis sancte Trinitatis de Fulgeriis
dono et firmiter concedo de vinea illa quam modo habent in burgo
Hersendis. Super hoc testes sunt Radulfus Fulgeriarum dominus. Petrus
de Altenosia. Villelmus Havart, Wianus Infans et quam plures. Anno
M° C° LXXX°. ab incarnatione Domini factum est." [Reference:
"Chartes de Prieuré de la Sainte Trinité de Fougères," in Bulletin
archéologique de l'Association bretonne, 3 (1848): 237]. END OF
QUOTE.
A depiction of an original seal and counterseal of Guy V de Laval may
be found in Bertrand de Broussillon and Paul de Farcy, Sigillographie
des Seigneurs de Laval, 1095-1605 (1888): 8.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Robin Haigh wrote:
In answer to your question, yes, Reynold Fitz Roy (or de Mortain), Earl
of Cornwall (illegitimate son of King Henry I of England), had several
daughters. One of them was Emme, wife of Guy V de Laval, seigneur of
Laval. Emme's identity is known from a charter of Evron given by Fulk
de Saint John, which was confirmed by "venerabilis Emma domina de
Lavalle, filia Reginaldi comitis Cornubiensis" [Reference: Abbé A.
Angot, Généalogies Féodales Mayennaises du XIe au XIIIe Siècle
(1942): 294]. Emme's husband, Guy V de Laval, occurs in the records in
the period, 1144 to 1194 [Reference: Bertrand de Broussillon and Paul
de Farcy, Sigillographie des Seigneurs de Laval, 1095-1605 (1888):
7-14].
I've copied below a transcript of a charter dated 1180 in which Emme
appears with her husband, Guy V de Laval, his brother Hamon, and their
son, Guy VI de Laval. This charter was witnessed by Raoul II de
Fougères (died 1194), seigneur of Fougères, who is a lineal ancestor
of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March.
"Guido de Lavalle universis Ecclesie filiis salutem. Quia ex
litteraram munimine major accedit agnitio, sigilli mei attestatione
notum volo fieri quod ego assensu Guidonis filii mei et Hamonis fratris
mei et Emma uxoris mei, in remissione peccatorum, coustumam mihi
pertinentem libere et quiete monachis sancte Trinitatis de Fulgeriis
dono et firmiter concedo de vinea illa quam modo habent in burgo
Hersendis. Super hoc testes sunt Radulfus Fulgeriarum dominus. Petrus
de Altenosia. Villelmus Havart, Wianus Infans et quam plures. Anno
M° C° LXXX°. ab incarnatione Domini factum est." [Reference:
"Chartes de Prieuré de la Sainte Trinité de Fougères," in Bulletin
archéologique de l'Association bretonne, 3 (1848): 237]. END OF
QUOTE.
A depiction of an original seal and counterseal of Guy V de Laval may
be found in Bertrand de Broussillon and Paul de Farcy, Sigillographie
des Seigneurs de Laval, 1095-1605 (1888): 8.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Robin Haigh wrote:
Did Rainald Earl of Cornwall have any daughters? CP only says he died
without legitimate male issue, and many people do show legitimate daughters.
But any such daughters would presumably have been co-heiresses of the
revenues of Cornwall, which seem to have reverted to the Crown by the time
of King John, who according to CP farmed them out to the Earl's illegitimate
son Henry in 1215. Do we conclude that any legitimate daughters must have
been dead by that time, without surviving descendants?
--
RSH