Second hand I received an observation about an entry in Genealogics.
I display Eudon III, Vicomte de Porhoet, died 1234, name of wife unknown.
Source mentioned Georges Martin, "Histoire et Genealogie des maisons de Rohan, Chabot, de Rohan-Chabot", Volume II page 32.
I have now added another source, ES Schwennicke, Volume X Tafel 13.
The observation I received maintains that this person really was known as Eudes Fitz Count or "if you prefer Eudon Fitz Count", and "he doesn't appear to ever have used a title at all".
Two sources are given, Morice 'Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Histoire de Bretagne I (1742)
and
Louis Rosenzweig 'Cartulaire general de Morbihan I (1895) : 206, 209-210, 215-216 (charters of Eudes Fitz Count ("Eudo filius Comitis") dated 1221, 1225, and 1231), 223-225.
If in a chart someone is called in Latin filius Comitis, should that be translated to Fitz Count? Especially as it applies to someone living in Brittany?
ES Schwennicke Volume X Tafel 13 to 24 (Tafels 13 to 24 cover the de Rohan family), shows quite a list of sources, the second source given is Georges Martin, the source on Genealogics.
Neither Morice or Rosenzweig are mentioned.
Georges Martin gives two pages with sources and those two are not mentioned either.
Georges Martin in his book explicitly mentions him as Eudon III, vicomte de Porhoet.
Schwennicke calls him Eudon III, comte de Porhoet.
I presume Eudes is French and Eudon the Breton form of that name, but as both sources use Eudon I think I should stick with Eudon. Neither Georges Martin nor ES display FitzCount or filius Comitis, and so I think I should not use that either.
Also I was told that Eudon's wife was a Marguerite, but neither Georges Marton nor ES mention a wife and so I feel I should keep the entry as I have it.
Can anyone confirm that Fitz Count is a valid naming on the continent in the 1200s?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
wjc
Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Leo,
Is it possible he was known in French as "Eudes fils Eudes", after his
father?
And if he had a sister, she might have been called "Sister fille
Eudes"?
Regards.
Bill
Is it possible he was known in French as "Eudes fils Eudes", after his
father?
And if he had a sister, she might have been called "Sister fille
Eudes"?
Regards.
Bill
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Eudon is displayed in both sources as an only child
I so no green light as yet for Fitz Count for this Breton gentleman.
Many thanks
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "wjc" <wjclvrhs@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
I so no green light as yet for Fitz Count for this Breton gentleman.
Many thanks
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "wjc" <wjclvrhs@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Leo,
Is it possible he was known in French as "Eudes fils Eudes", after his
father?
And if he had a sister, she might have been called "Sister fille
Eudes"?
Regards.
Bill
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Dear Leo ~
English historians and genealogists translate "filius Comitis" as Fitz
Count, as in Brian Fitz Count and Henry Fitz Count. Since your
database is directed toward the English speaking world, I think "Fitz
Count" would make an acceptable "surname" for this individual. An
equally acceptable surname for him would be "de Porhoet," as he appears
to have been lord of Porhoet, although he never used Porhoet in
connection with any of his charters.
As far as his wife, Marguerite, is concerned, she is named as his widow
in a 1248 settlement ("partage") between his heirs [Reference: Morice,
Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742):
933-935]. The document reads as follows:
"... & quand il avendra que le doaire Margarite qui fut femme
Monseignor Eun filz le Comte escherra après la mort d'icelle, le
herbergement de la Villa Jagu & le Plessix si comme il parssiet
revendra à cely Raoul de Fougierres & à ses ers ..."
This document is dated "au jour de Samedi, apres la feste de tous les
Sainctz au mois de Novembre" in the year 1248, which translates to
Saturday, 7 November 1248. So Marguerite was living as late as 7
November 1248.
Elsewhere, Morice assigns Eudes Fitz Count three daughters, not four:
"Le partage des biens de la Maison de Porhoet avoir donné lieu au
différend, dont il est parlé dans ce Traité. Eudon III. du nom
Comte de Porhoet étoit mort l'an 1231, & n'avoit laissé que trois
filles de son mariage avec Marguerite Dame de la Ville-Jagu, sçavoir
Mahaut, Alienor & Marguerite de Porhoet. Il avoit marié Mahaut avec
Geoffroi Baron de Fougeres, pere de Raoul, & Alienor, avec Alain V., du
nom Vicomte de Rohan mort in 1232. Quoiqu'Alienor eut plusieurs enfans
d'Alain, elle prit une seconde alliance avec Pierre de Chemillé
Chevalier Seigneur de Brissac en Anjou. Sa soeur Marguerite épousa
Oliver Seigneur de Montauban. Ces trois hériteres eurent de longues
discussions au sujet de leur parrages: enfin par Traité passé en
présence du Duc l'an 1241, les deux tiers de la succession du Comte
Eudon fuerent adjugés à Mahaut sa fille ainée, & l'autre tiers fut
partagé entre Alienor & Marguerite." [Reference: Morice, Histoire
Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): 173].
As far as the placement of the extra daughter, Alix, wife of Guy I
Mauvoisin, in this family, Ginny Wagner has related in an earlier post
that the historian Daniel Power indicates that Alix Mauvoisin occurs in
the period, 1190-1201. Morice places her as a legitimate daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count's father, Eudes (Count or Duke of Brittany) (d. c.
1185), by his 1st wife, Berthe of Brittany. But, Morice elsewhere has
assigned Count/Duke Eudes and Berthe a legitimate son, Geoffrey (who
died young), and a legitimate daughter, Alix (or Adelice), who became
Abbess of Fontevrault [Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et
Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): xx-xxi (chart)]. I believe that Morice is
correct about the placement of Alix the Abbess.
As for Alix Mauvoisin, I tend towards the position that Alix, wife of
Guy I Mauvoisin, was a legitimate daughter of Count/Duke Eudes by his
2nd wife, _____ de Léon, and thus a full sister to Eudes Fitz Count.
Alix Mauvoisin was certainly a member of this family, as her son, Guy
II Mauvoisin, made settlements in 1235 and 1236 with the senior Porhoet
heir, Raoul de Fougères, regarding the Porhoet inheritance
[References: Teulet, Layettes du Trésor des Chartes 2 (1866):
294-296, 297; Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne 1 (1742): 890-891, 901-902]. Unfortunately, Guy II
Mauvoisin's relationship to Raoul de Fougères is not stated in any of
these documents.
Insofar as Morice's statement that Eudes Fitz Count died in 1231, I
have not seen anything to document the year of death. I do note that
Morice includes a charter dated 1231 by which Eudes Fitz Count gave
property with his body to Marmoutier Abbey for the remembrance of the
anniversary of his death [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742): 874]. From this document,
it appears that Eudes Fitz Count was living in 1231. He was obviously
dead, however, in or before 1235, as indicated by the first settlement
of his estate between Raoul de Fougères and Guy II Mauvoisin which I
have cited above.
I might add that Eudes Fitz Count also had a full brother named Henri
who occurs with him in a charter sometime before 1195 [Reference:
Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1
(1742): 698]. I believe I have seen Henri in another charter with
Eudes, after which he appears to disappear from the records.
Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
English historians and genealogists translate "filius Comitis" as Fitz
Count, as in Brian Fitz Count and Henry Fitz Count. Since your
database is directed toward the English speaking world, I think "Fitz
Count" would make an acceptable "surname" for this individual. An
equally acceptable surname for him would be "de Porhoet," as he appears
to have been lord of Porhoet, although he never used Porhoet in
connection with any of his charters.
As far as his wife, Marguerite, is concerned, she is named as his widow
in a 1248 settlement ("partage") between his heirs [Reference: Morice,
Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742):
933-935]. The document reads as follows:
"... & quand il avendra que le doaire Margarite qui fut femme
Monseignor Eun filz le Comte escherra après la mort d'icelle, le
herbergement de la Villa Jagu & le Plessix si comme il parssiet
revendra à cely Raoul de Fougierres & à ses ers ..."
This document is dated "au jour de Samedi, apres la feste de tous les
Sainctz au mois de Novembre" in the year 1248, which translates to
Saturday, 7 November 1248. So Marguerite was living as late as 7
November 1248.
Elsewhere, Morice assigns Eudes Fitz Count three daughters, not four:
"Le partage des biens de la Maison de Porhoet avoir donné lieu au
différend, dont il est parlé dans ce Traité. Eudon III. du nom
Comte de Porhoet étoit mort l'an 1231, & n'avoit laissé que trois
filles de son mariage avec Marguerite Dame de la Ville-Jagu, sçavoir
Mahaut, Alienor & Marguerite de Porhoet. Il avoit marié Mahaut avec
Geoffroi Baron de Fougeres, pere de Raoul, & Alienor, avec Alain V., du
nom Vicomte de Rohan mort in 1232. Quoiqu'Alienor eut plusieurs enfans
d'Alain, elle prit une seconde alliance avec Pierre de Chemillé
Chevalier Seigneur de Brissac en Anjou. Sa soeur Marguerite épousa
Oliver Seigneur de Montauban. Ces trois hériteres eurent de longues
discussions au sujet de leur parrages: enfin par Traité passé en
présence du Duc l'an 1241, les deux tiers de la succession du Comte
Eudon fuerent adjugés à Mahaut sa fille ainée, & l'autre tiers fut
partagé entre Alienor & Marguerite." [Reference: Morice, Histoire
Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): 173].
As far as the placement of the extra daughter, Alix, wife of Guy I
Mauvoisin, in this family, Ginny Wagner has related in an earlier post
that the historian Daniel Power indicates that Alix Mauvoisin occurs in
the period, 1190-1201. Morice places her as a legitimate daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count's father, Eudes (Count or Duke of Brittany) (d. c.
1185), by his 1st wife, Berthe of Brittany. But, Morice elsewhere has
assigned Count/Duke Eudes and Berthe a legitimate son, Geoffrey (who
died young), and a legitimate daughter, Alix (or Adelice), who became
Abbess of Fontevrault [Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et
Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): xx-xxi (chart)]. I believe that Morice is
correct about the placement of Alix the Abbess.
As for Alix Mauvoisin, I tend towards the position that Alix, wife of
Guy I Mauvoisin, was a legitimate daughter of Count/Duke Eudes by his
2nd wife, _____ de Léon, and thus a full sister to Eudes Fitz Count.
Alix Mauvoisin was certainly a member of this family, as her son, Guy
II Mauvoisin, made settlements in 1235 and 1236 with the senior Porhoet
heir, Raoul de Fougères, regarding the Porhoet inheritance
[References: Teulet, Layettes du Trésor des Chartes 2 (1866):
294-296, 297; Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne 1 (1742): 890-891, 901-902]. Unfortunately, Guy II
Mauvoisin's relationship to Raoul de Fougères is not stated in any of
these documents.
Insofar as Morice's statement that Eudes Fitz Count died in 1231, I
have not seen anything to document the year of death. I do note that
Morice includes a charter dated 1231 by which Eudes Fitz Count gave
property with his body to Marmoutier Abbey for the remembrance of the
anniversary of his death [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742): 874]. From this document,
it appears that Eudes Fitz Count was living in 1231. He was obviously
dead, however, in or before 1235, as indicated by the first settlement
of his estate between Raoul de Fougères and Guy II Mauvoisin which I
have cited above.
I might add that Eudes Fitz Count also had a full brother named Henri
who occurs with him in a charter sometime before 1195 [Reference:
Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1
(1742): 698]. I believe I have seen Henri in another charter with
Eudes, after which he appears to disappear from the records.
Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Second hand I received an observation about an entry in Genealogics.
I display Eudon III, Vicomte de Porhoet, died 1234, name of wife unknown.
Source mentioned Georges Martin, "Histoire et Genealogie des maisons de Rohan, Chabot, de Rohan-Chabot", Volume II page 32.
I have now added another source, ES Schwennicke, Volume X Tafel 13.
The observation I received maintains that this person really was known as Eudes Fitz Count or "if you prefer Eudon Fitz Count", and "he doesn't appear to ever have used a title at all".
Two sources are given, Morice 'Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Histoire de Bretagne I (1742)
and
Louis Rosenzweig 'Cartulaire general de Morbihan I (1895) : 206, 209-210, 215-216 (charters of Eudes Fitz Count ("Eudo filius Comitis") dated 1221, 1225, and 1231), 223-225.
If in a chart someone is called in Latin filius Comitis, should that be translated to Fitz Count? Especially as it applies to someone living in Brittany?
ES Schwennicke Volume X Tafel 13 to 24 (Tafels 13 to 24 cover the de Rohan family), shows quite a list of sources, the second source given is Georges Martin, the source on Genealogics.
Neither Morice or Rosenzweig are mentioned.
Georges Martin gives two pages with sources and those two are not mentioned either.
Georges Martin in his book explicitly mentions him as Eudon III, vicomte de Porhoet.
Schwennicke calls him Eudon III, comte de Porhoet.
I presume Eudes is French and Eudon the Breton form of that name, but as both sources use Eudon I think I should stick with Eudon. Neither Georges Martin nor ES display FitzCount or filius Comitis, and so I think I should not use that either.
Also I was told that Eudon's wife was a Marguerite, but neither Georges Marton nor ES mention a wife and so I feel I should keep the entry as I have it.
Can anyone confirm that Fitz Count is a valid naming on the continent in the 1200s?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Gjest
Re: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
Both Eudes and Eudon are Old French, not Breton. Eudes is the
nominative, whereas Eudon is the oblique case. Likewise Yves and Yvon.
If you have a copy of the second edition of The Complete Peerage you
may find Appendix C of Volume III helpful, although at a quick glance
it does not appear to cover this particular point. Anyway the first
sentence of that Appendix is particularly relevant: "In this work an
attempt has been made to give to medieval people something approaching
to the names by which they were actually called, though owing to the
fact that old documents are almost always in Latin it is sometimes very
difficult to ascertain positively what these were". Personally, I
feel that names should be left in the form in which they are found in
the sources, but if you feel that you must translate, then please
always state the original form in parenthesis, thusly:
Eudes FitzCount ("Eudo filus Comitis")
Eudo, Eudes, or Eudo is the same as Oddo, Odo, or Otto, namely a short
form of any name in Ead-, Ed-, or Od-, in other words they are old
forms of Ed, Eddie, or Eddy. So the gentlemen in question may have been
an Edmund or Edward. Or his parents may really have called him Eudes
("Eddie"), though no doubt he was baptised in Latin as Eudo. But
surely he was never called FitzCount, because count is a modern English
word used to translate foreign titles.
nominative, whereas Eudon is the oblique case. Likewise Yves and Yvon.
If you have a copy of the second edition of The Complete Peerage you
may find Appendix C of Volume III helpful, although at a quick glance
it does not appear to cover this particular point. Anyway the first
sentence of that Appendix is particularly relevant: "In this work an
attempt has been made to give to medieval people something approaching
to the names by which they were actually called, though owing to the
fact that old documents are almost always in Latin it is sometimes very
difficult to ascertain positively what these were". Personally, I
feel that names should be left in the form in which they are found in
the sources, but if you feel that you must translate, then please
always state the original form in parenthesis, thusly:
Eudes FitzCount ("Eudo filus Comitis")
Eudo, Eudes, or Eudo is the same as Oddo, Odo, or Otto, namely a short
form of any name in Ead-, Ed-, or Od-, in other words they are old
forms of Ed, Eddie, or Eddy. So the gentlemen in question may have been
an Edmund or Edward. Or his parents may really have called him Eudes
("Eddie"), though no doubt he was baptised in Latin as Eudo. But
surely he was never called FitzCount, because count is a modern English
word used to translate foreign titles.
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
I give both long and tiny url because the tiny doesn't last
forever, as I understand it, but it is quite convenient when
it works.
Starting on page xl of Cartulaire de Marmoutier pour le
Dunois, pub by France (Benedictine abbey) Marmoutier, on
Google books
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 84005&id=7
z7mkn0iEdIC&vq=Eudo&dq=cartulaire+dunense&lpg=PR42&pg=PR40
or http://tinyurl.com/dxdne
is a discussion of Hamelin, Hugue II and Agnes and on the
next page is Eude, Rahier II, then Jean I, and by page xliv
we have Hugue III and Jean II de Montigny.
One thing I thought was pretty interesting was in the Index
Onomasticus is the entry, "Eudo, 188, voyez Odo". The 188
being the charter number. Vocare is 'to call' in medieval
Latin so I wondered if voyez is some form of 'call' as in
'Eudo, called Odo'. If so, that would be very interesting
.... that the names Eudo and Odo are interchangable. Then I
read what Paul Heath said in his email about Eudo and Odo
being interchangable which corroborates what the index said.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 84005&id=7
z7mkn0iEdIC&dq=cartulaire+dunense&lpg=PA260&pg=PA262&printse
c=6
or
http://tinyurl.com/95rmw
In The Gentleman's Magazine, under an article entitled
"Origin of the Family of Zouche", is a lineage including
Eudo.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 15364&id=V
N08YCFHwhEC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Count+Eudo&sig=hc3q_rRUWZNqeKY
AuWSSnZpyuCU
or
http://tinyurl.com/aud46
Biographical notes on the Yorkshire tenants gives a bio of
Eudo Count:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Zze69wUy9_
_&id=tjultLjWppcC&dq=Count+Eudo&lpg=PA130&pg=PA130
or
http://tinyurl.com/85rxn
Hope all this is helpful.
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
forever, as I understand it, but it is quite convenient when
it works.
Starting on page xl of Cartulaire de Marmoutier pour le
Dunois, pub by France (Benedictine abbey) Marmoutier, on
Google books
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 84005&id=7
z7mkn0iEdIC&vq=Eudo&dq=cartulaire+dunense&lpg=PR42&pg=PR40
or http://tinyurl.com/dxdne
is a discussion of Hamelin, Hugue II and Agnes and on the
next page is Eude, Rahier II, then Jean I, and by page xliv
we have Hugue III and Jean II de Montigny.
One thing I thought was pretty interesting was in the Index
Onomasticus is the entry, "Eudo, 188, voyez Odo". The 188
being the charter number. Vocare is 'to call' in medieval
Latin so I wondered if voyez is some form of 'call' as in
'Eudo, called Odo'. If so, that would be very interesting
.... that the names Eudo and Odo are interchangable. Then I
read what Paul Heath said in his email about Eudo and Odo
being interchangable which corroborates what the index said.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 84005&id=7
z7mkn0iEdIC&dq=cartulaire+dunense&lpg=PA260&pg=PA262&printse
c=6
or
http://tinyurl.com/95rmw
In The Gentleman's Magazine, under an article entitled
"Origin of the Family of Zouche", is a lineage including
Eudo.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 15364&id=V
N08YCFHwhEC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Count+Eudo&sig=hc3q_rRUWZNqeKY
AuWSSnZpyuCU
or
http://tinyurl.com/aud46
Biographical notes on the Yorkshire tenants gives a bio of
Eudo Count:
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... Zze69wUy9_
_&id=tjultLjWppcC&dq=Count+Eudo&lpg=PA130&pg=PA130
or
http://tinyurl.com/85rxn
Hope all this is helpful.
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Was Fitz ever used on the Continent?
I just returned home from the library with Court, household,
and itinerary of King Henry II, ... by Robert William Eyton,
and I opened it up to the preface and on pages x and xi:
INTRODUCTUROY NOTICES AND EXPLANATIONS.
"The full style of Henry of Anjou was 'Henry, King of
England, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine and Comte of Anjou.'
Colloquially he was, in his lifetime, spoken of as Henry
Fitz Empress, sometimes as King Henry the Second.
"'Henry son of the King' was usually so spoken of till his
Coronation, when he was called 'Henry the younger King' or
sometimes 'King Henry the Third.'
"So with K. Henry's son, Richard, the titles of Duke of
Aquitaine and Comte of Poitou accrued to him while yet his
Father was using them.
"As to Geoffrey, he became Duke of Bretagne by his marriage;
but he was usually called only Comte of Bretagne, the
superior title being asserted indeed by himself but not
generally recognized. He was also Earl of Richmond.
"The King's son John, Comte of Moretain, also had the Title
of 'Lord,' sometimes expressed 'Prince,' 'of Ireland':
which Title was not at any time assumed by King Henry
himself.
"In the following pages it is convenient to speak of the
sons and daughters of the Kings as 'Princes' and
'Princesses,' not that any of them, except John, were ever
so called in their day. The style of 'Fitz-Roy,' though
more in keeping with the usage of the twelfth century, has a
sinister sound in the ears of the nineteenth. It is used
therefore of William Longespee or of the Chancellor
Geoffrey. For any of the king's legitimate sons the
appellation of Prince is preferred, not as implying any
Title, but as a concise, intelligble, and non-pedantic
expression."
Hope this helps.
Ginny
and itinerary of King Henry II, ... by Robert William Eyton,
and I opened it up to the preface and on pages x and xi:
INTRODUCTUROY NOTICES AND EXPLANATIONS.
"The full style of Henry of Anjou was 'Henry, King of
England, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine and Comte of Anjou.'
Colloquially he was, in his lifetime, spoken of as Henry
Fitz Empress, sometimes as King Henry the Second.
"'Henry son of the King' was usually so spoken of till his
Coronation, when he was called 'Henry the younger King' or
sometimes 'King Henry the Third.'
"So with K. Henry's son, Richard, the titles of Duke of
Aquitaine and Comte of Poitou accrued to him while yet his
Father was using them.
"As to Geoffrey, he became Duke of Bretagne by his marriage;
but he was usually called only Comte of Bretagne, the
superior title being asserted indeed by himself but not
generally recognized. He was also Earl of Richmond.
"The King's son John, Comte of Moretain, also had the Title
of 'Lord,' sometimes expressed 'Prince,' 'of Ireland':
which Title was not at any time assumed by King Henry
himself.
"In the following pages it is convenient to speak of the
sons and daughters of the Kings as 'Princes' and
'Princesses,' not that any of them, except John, were ever
so called in their day. The style of 'Fitz-Roy,' though
more in keeping with the usage of the twelfth century, has a
sinister sound in the ears of the nineteenth. It is used
therefore of William Longespee or of the Chancellor
Geoffrey. For any of the king's legitimate sons the
appellation of Prince is preferred, not as implying any
Title, but as a concise, intelligble, and non-pedantic
expression."
Hope this helps.
Ginny