Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2003, I posted two citations in which Edmund, Earl of Lancaster
(younger son of King Henry III of England), referred to Sir John de
Saint John (died 1302) as his "cousin." In the intervening time, the
exact relationship between these two individuals has not been
determined, although a hypothesis regarding their kinship has been
presented.
Recently, I encountered another reference to kinship between the
English royal family and the Saint John family. According to VCH
Oxford, 4 (1979): 304-305, King Edward I of England committed his
houses at Oxford (later called Beaumont Palace) in 1294 to his kinsman,
Edward de Saint John. VCH Oxford cites as its source the following
reference: Cal. Close Rolls, 1288-1296 (1904): 358, which item I have
not yet had the opportunity to read.
Reviewing my files, it appears that the Edward de Saint John who was
granted the king's houses at Oxford in 1294 was a younger son of Sir
John de Saint John (died 1302), by his wife, Alice, daughter of Sir
Reynold Fitz Peter. Like Edmund de Mortimer before him who was granted
the same houses at Oxford (presumably while studying at the
university), Edward de Saint John was originally intended for the
church, but eventually forsook this calling. He subsequently married
Eve Dautry (or de Haute Rive), by whom he had several children. He
died in 1348.
For interest's sake, I've presented below the names of the 17th Century
colonial immigrants who descend from Sir Edward de Saint John and his
wife, Eve Dautry:
1. William Bladen.
2. George & Nehemiah Blakiston.
3. Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis.
4. Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield.
5. Joseph & Mary Need.
6. Philip & Thomas Nelson (two descents).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF ORIGINAL POST
Dear Newsgroup:
I've located two references in the medieval source, Foedera, in which
Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (younger son of King Henry III of England)
refers to Sir John de St. John as his "cousin" [see abstracts below].
I haven't made an attempt to determine the exact nature of the kinship
involved, but I presume it comes through John de St. John's maternal
grandmother, Milicent (de Gournay) de Cantelowe. Milicent de Gournay
has many descendants, among them being Milicent de Cantelowe, wife of
Eudes la Zouche, of recent topic here on the newsgroup.
If anyone has any particulars which might identity the kinship between
Earl Edmund and John de St. John, I'd appreciate it if they would post
their information here on the newsgroup. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalances...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Foedera, 1 (1816): 793
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... dera1.xm...
A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin mon sire
Johan de Seint Johan chevaler, tenant en la duchie de Guyenne, le lieu
de nostre treschere seigneur & frere, mon seigneur Edward, par la
grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, & due de Guyenn' &
a sire Johan de Havering chevaler, seneschall de la dite duchie, & a
tous les autres seneschaus du dist nostre seigneur le Roy & duc, es
parties & es terres de la mesme duchie, saluz.
Sachiez que nous avons receheu, & veu les lettres overtes du dit
nostre seigneur le Roy, en la forme que s'ensuit:
Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceux qui cestes presentes lettres verront &
orront, saluz.
- - - - - - - - - -
Foedera, 1 (1816): 794
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... -prod/te...
A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin, monsire
Johan de Saint Johan ehivaler, tenant en la duchee d'Acquitaine le
lieu de nostre treschere seigneur & frere Edward, par la grace de
DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, & duc d'Aquitaine, saluz.
Les lettres overtes du dit nostre seigneur & frere nous avons receves,
& entendues en ceste forme:
Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roi d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceaux qui cestes presentes lettres verront ou
orront, saluz.
Come Esmon, nostre chere frere, nous ait fait a savoir, que pleintes
sont venues, qe nostre seneschal, e autres de nos genz de Gascoigne,
eent fait plusors desobeisaunces, & plusours trespas a nostre
treschere seigneur & cousin le Roi de France, & a ces ministres, la
quel chose nous displet molt.
Nous, veillantz & desirantz que les choses soient adrescees & amendees
a son honeur & a sa volente, a cestes chose faire & acomplir;
Donos & ottroions plein poer a nostre frere avantdit par cestes
presentes lettres,
Et seur ce maundons & comandons a nostre seneschal, noz ministres, & a
noz autres gentz de la dite duchee, que, ces choses desus dites soient
obeissantz a nostre frere avantdit, & a son mandement ausint come a
nous mesmes.
En tesmoigne de queu nous avoms fet fere cestes lettres patentes
seales de nostre seal.
Done a Cantirbir', le primer jour du mois de Jenuer, l'an de Grace
MCCXCIII.
Et come li dit nostre sires Rois de France vuelle avoir en son arest,
& en sa prison de la gent du dicte nostre seigneur le Roi d'Engleterre
jusques a vint;
Et nous, par le poeir a nous donee es dites lettres, li aions promis
que nous les ferons avoir;
Nous vous mandons & commandons estreitement si chere, come vous amez
le bien du dit nostre seigneur & duc;
Que vous faites tant qee tuit cil, que li conestables vous nomers, des
seneschaux, baillis, & prevestz, sergentz, & autres officiaus du dit
nostre seigneur Roi & duc, jusques a vint, aillent en l'arrest, e en
la prison du dit seigneur Roi de France, e la ou li dit conestables
comandera, & ce ne lessiez en nule manere.
Don' a Paris, ...... de la Chandeleur, en l'an de nostre Seigneur
MCCXCIII.
King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Saint Jo
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Sain
One possible explanation is that Edward St. John and Edward I's wife,
Eleanor of Castile were second cousins twice removed through the
Dammartin family. Otherwise, the glaring hole in the ancestry of
Edward St. John is the identity of his maternal grandmother Alice (---)
who married Sir Reginald Fitz Piers. It is there I would look for a
connection to Edmund of Lancaster and Edward I.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Eleanor of Castile were second cousins twice removed through the
Dammartin family. Otherwise, the glaring hole in the ancestry of
Edward St. John is the identity of his maternal grandmother Alice (---)
who married Sir Reginald Fitz Piers. It is there I would look for a
connection to Edmund of Lancaster and Edward I.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2003, I posted two citations in which Edmund, Earl of Lancaster
(younger son of King Henry III of England), referred to Sir John de
Saint John (died 1302) as his "cousin." In the intervening time, the
exact relationship between these two individuals has not been
determined, although a hypothesis regarding their kinship has been
presented.
Recently, I encountered another reference to kinship between the
English royal family and the Saint John family. According to VCH
Oxford, 4 (1979): 304-305, King Edward I of England committed his
houses at Oxford (later called Beaumont Palace) in 1294 to his kinsman,
Edward de Saint John. VCH Oxford cites as its source the following
reference: Cal. Close Rolls, 1288-1296 (1904): 358, which item I have
not yet had the opportunity to read.
[SNIPPED]
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Sain
Dear Martin ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
It appears that the kinship between King Edward I and Sir Edward de
Saint John came through King Edward's own ancestry, not through his
wife's. In this case, we can be certain of this as King Edward's
brother, Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, twice referred to Edward de Saint
John's father, Sir John de Saint John, as his kinsman in other
documents. My present working theory is that the Saint John family
possesses a descent from the Tony family, which link would provide them
a valid connection to the English royal family. However, this theory
has not yet been proven.
Regarding Queen Eleanor of Castile's own kinship to the Saint John
family, if you read my overview of king's kinsfolk which I posted
yesterday, I stated that when medieval English kings referred to people
as their kinsfolk in public records, they were invariably referring to
their own kin, not someone related to them by marriage. So, even if we
did not know about Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's reference to John de
Saint John being his kinsman, I would normally have to rule out the
kinship between Eleanor of Castile and Sir John de Saint John and his
son, Edward, as being the source of the stated relationship.
If the kinship was stated in private correspondence, then there is a
possibility that the kinship came through marriage. However, even that
is debatable. I've reviewed the published correspondence of King
Edward II when he was the Prince of Wales. All individuals named as
kinsfolk in his correspondence appear to have been blood relatives. In
fact, the earliest reference that I've found to kinship by marriage
being referenced in private correspondence is Edmund, Earl of Kent, who
referred to Sir Hugh le Despenser as his nephew in the 1320's [see
Chaplais, War of Saint-Sardos 1323-1325 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 87)
(1954)]. As is common knowledge, Sir Hugh le Despenser was married to
Earl Edmund's niece, Eleanor de Clare. Elsewhere, I note that King
Edward II also addressed Hugh le Despenser as "king's nephew" [see Cal.
Chancery Warrants (1927): 519 & 529]. This is one of the rare
instances in public records I've found where a king addressed someone
related by marriage as his kinsman.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
It appears that the kinship between King Edward I and Sir Edward de
Saint John came through King Edward's own ancestry, not through his
wife's. In this case, we can be certain of this as King Edward's
brother, Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, twice referred to Edward de Saint
John's father, Sir John de Saint John, as his kinsman in other
documents. My present working theory is that the Saint John family
possesses a descent from the Tony family, which link would provide them
a valid connection to the English royal family. However, this theory
has not yet been proven.
Regarding Queen Eleanor of Castile's own kinship to the Saint John
family, if you read my overview of king's kinsfolk which I posted
yesterday, I stated that when medieval English kings referred to people
as their kinsfolk in public records, they were invariably referring to
their own kin, not someone related to them by marriage. So, even if we
did not know about Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's reference to John de
Saint John being his kinsman, I would normally have to rule out the
kinship between Eleanor of Castile and Sir John de Saint John and his
son, Edward, as being the source of the stated relationship.
If the kinship was stated in private correspondence, then there is a
possibility that the kinship came through marriage. However, even that
is debatable. I've reviewed the published correspondence of King
Edward II when he was the Prince of Wales. All individuals named as
kinsfolk in his correspondence appear to have been blood relatives. In
fact, the earliest reference that I've found to kinship by marriage
being referenced in private correspondence is Edmund, Earl of Kent, who
referred to Sir Hugh le Despenser as his nephew in the 1320's [see
Chaplais, War of Saint-Sardos 1323-1325 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 87)
(1954)]. As is common knowledge, Sir Hugh le Despenser was married to
Earl Edmund's niece, Eleanor de Clare. Elsewhere, I note that King
Edward II also addressed Hugh le Despenser as "king's nephew" [see Cal.
Chancery Warrants (1927): 519 & 529]. This is one of the rare
instances in public records I've found where a king addressed someone
related by marriage as his kinsman.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
One possible explanation is that Edward St. John and Edward I's wife,
Eleanor of Castile were second cousins twice removed through the
Dammartin family. Otherwise, the glaring hole in the ancestry of
Edward St. John is the identity of his maternal grandmother Alice (---)
who married Sir Reginald Fitz Piers. It is there I would look for a
connection to Edmund of Lancaster and Edward I.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2003, I posted two citations in which Edmund, Earl of Lancaster
(younger son of King Henry III of England), referred to Sir John de
Saint John (died 1302) as his "cousin." In the intervening time, the
exact relationship between these two individuals has not been
determined, although a hypothesis regarding their kinship has been
presented.
Recently, I encountered another reference to kinship between the
English royal family and the Saint John family. According to VCH
Oxford, 4 (1979): 304-305, King Edward I of England committed his
houses at Oxford (later called Beaumont Palace) in 1294 to his kinsman,
Edward de Saint John. VCH Oxford cites as its source the following
reference: Cal. Close Rolls, 1288-1296 (1904): 358, which item I have
not yet had the opportunity to read.
[SNIPPED]
-
Alianore
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Sain
Writ of privy seal of Edward II, dated 'le xx iour de Octobre Lan de
nostre regne Neuisme' (1316, if my calculations are correct):
'....monsire Humfray de Bohun Counte de Hereford nostre cher frere'
As is also common knowledge, the Earl of Hereford (1276-1322) was
married to Edward II's sister Elizabeth (1282-1316)
Cheers, Alianore
http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/
nostre regne Neuisme' (1316, if my calculations are correct):
'....monsire Humfray de Bohun Counte de Hereford nostre cher frere'
As is also common knowledge, the Earl of Hereford (1276-1322) was
married to Edward II's sister Elizabeth (1282-1316)
Cheers, Alianore
http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Sain
Dear Alianore ~
As you can see, the king could and did refer to brothers in law as his
"brothers" and his mother-in-law as his "mother." But, this was
customary for ALL English families in this time period, not just the
royal family. The king could and did distinguish a brother in law as
an in-law if he choose to do so. An example is Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1399-1401 (1903): 28, where Ralph Neville is styled "kinsman
by marriage" [affinis] by King Henry IV, but elsewhere on pages 22,
24, 149, he is styled "king's brother" by the same king.
The point is not how the king handled his immediate family (which seems
rather typical to me), but rather how he handled his extended family
network.
Cheers, Douglas Richardson
Alianore wrote:
As you can see, the king could and did refer to brothers in law as his
"brothers" and his mother-in-law as his "mother." But, this was
customary for ALL English families in this time period, not just the
royal family. The king could and did distinguish a brother in law as
an in-law if he choose to do so. An example is Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1399-1401 (1903): 28, where Ralph Neville is styled "kinsman
by marriage" [affinis] by King Henry IV, but elsewhere on pages 22,
24, 149, he is styled "king's brother" by the same king.
The point is not how the king handled his immediate family (which seems
rather typical to me), but rather how he handled his extended family
network.
Cheers, Douglas Richardson
Alianore wrote:
Writ of privy seal of Edward II, dated 'le xx iour de Octobre Lan de
nostre regne Neuisme' (1316, if my calculations are correct):
'....monsire Humfray de Bohun Counte de Hereford nostre cher frere'
As is also common knowledge, the Earl of Hereford (1276-1322) was
married to Edward II's sister Elizabeth (1282-1316)
Cheers, Alianore
http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/
-
Alianore
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I's kinsman, Edward de Sain
OK, I see, thanks!
I've also seen the letters of Edmund Earl of Kent to Hugh le Despenser
in Chaplais' War of Saint Sardos - he seems to say 'trescher neveu' in
every sentence!
I've also seen the letters of Edmund Earl of Kent to Hugh le Despenser
in Chaplais' War of Saint Sardos - he seems to say 'trescher neveu' in
every sentence!