Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

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Brad Verity

Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 11 feb 2006 06:20:42

Henry Clifford, 10th Lord Clifford, 'The Shepherd Lord', was born about
1454, and from the age of seven hidden away with a shepherds family so
that the Yorkists could not get to him. It wasn't until Henry Tudor
became king, when Clifford was over age 30, that he could claim his
inheritance. He was summoned to Parliament in September 1485, and was
knighted and had his lands restored 9 November 1485. He married, in
the presence of the king and queen, sometime between 1486 and 1490,
Anne St. John, the daughter of Sir John St. John, of Bletso,
Bedfordshire, and first cousin of Henry VII.

Per the Henry VII Relations pedigrees (Harleian MS. 1074.) that 19th
century antiquarian Nicholas Harris Nicolas estimated to have been
compiled about 1505, and definitely within the latter half of Henry
VII's reign, Anne St. John and "Harry Lord Clifford" had the following
children, presented presumably in their order of birth: "Jane, Mabill,
Henry son and heir, Anne, Thomas, Alianor." We know Henry was born in
1493, but have no birthdates for the others.

We also know that the Lord Clifford had two further daughters,
Elizabeth and Margaret. Chronology may (just) allow for Margaret to be
missing from the c.1505 pedigree because she was not yet born (its
possible the information was gathered for the pedigree before 1505).
Elizabeth, however, should absolutely be on the pedigree - she could
not have been married to Sir Ralph Bowes of Streatlam much later than
1510, as her daughter Margery Bowes was herself a mother in 1532.

Two possibilities: 1) the eldest child 'Jane' in the c.1505 pedigree
was actually Elizabeth; or 2) Elizabeth was not a daughter of Anne St.
John, so a natural daughter born probably before Lord Clifford's
marriage (he had plenty of years of quiet living before 1485).

The first possibility seemed the likeliest until Annette Hudleston
Harwood shared with me the date she had for the marriage of Joan
Clifford to Sir John Huddleston - 20 August 1509. The second
possibility could well be the case - the Cliffords for several
generations took good care of their bastards. Margaret (wife of Sir
Cuthbert Ratcliffe) may also not be on the c.1505 pedigree because she,
too, was not a daughter of Anne St. John. It should be noted, though,
that the Clifford pedigree in the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire does
give Anne St. John daughters married to "------ Ratclyffe" and "Sir
Raff Bowes". The 1563 pedigree is full of error - the only first name
of a daughter of the 10th Lord Clifford that it gets correct is Mabel.

Here is what I am leaning towards right now, though adjustment will be
made as hopefully more dates and chronology come to light.

Issue of the 10th Lord Clifford (born 1454, died 23 April 1524):

[by 1st wife Anne St. John, married after 1485, died before 1511]
1) ELIZABETH CLIFFORD [named for the queen, Elizabeth of York?], born
about 1488, married 1st by 1510, Sir Ralph Bowes of Streatlam Castle,
co. Durham (b. by 1495, d. April 1516), second son of Sir Ralph Bowes
of Streatlam by Margery Conyers of South Cowton, and had two daughters
(the elder was a mother in 1532) and one (posthumous) son. Dame
Elizabeth married 2nd, William Tonge, "of Ekylsall" [wherever that was
- this is from the Tonge pedigree in the 1563 Yorkshire Visitation],
son of Richard Tonge by Isabel Hedworth, and had another son and
another daughter. Date of death not known.
2) JOAN CLIFFORD, born about 1490, married 20 August 1509, Sir John
Huddleston, of Millom Castle, Cumberland (b. about 1488, died 1547),
only son and heir of Sir John Huddleston of Millom by his 2nd wife Jane
Stapleton, and died without issue before 1513 (when Sir John married
Joan Seymour).
3) MABEL CLIFFORD, born about 1491/92, lady-in-waiting to Katherine of
Aragon, married at Skipton Castle November 1513, Sir William
Fitzwilliam (b. about 1490, d. 15 October 1542), 3rd son of Sir Thomas
Fitzwilliam of Aldwark, Yorkshire by Lucy Neville; created Earl of
Southampton 18 Oct. 1537. Countess Mabel died without issue August
1550.
4) HENRY CLIFFORD, born 1493, created Earl of Cumberland 18 June 1525,
died 22 Apr. 1542.
5) ANNE CLIFFORD, born about 1494/95, married 1st, by 1514, Robert
Clifton, of Clifton, Nottinghamshire (b. 14??, d. 3 September 1517),
son and heir of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton by Agnes Griffith, and
had one son (born March 1516) and one daughter. Dame Anne married 2nd,
about 1520, Ralph Melford, esquire, of Arnold, Nottinghamshire (d.
April 1546), and died before 1546, having had three more sons and three
more daughters.
6) Sir THOMAS CLIFFORD, born about 1496/97, of Burnside, Westmorland,
governor of Berwick, married about 1524, Lucy Browne (b. ??, d.
November 1557), daughter of Sir Anthony Browne by Lucy Neville, and
half-sister of William Fitzwilliam, Earl of Southampton above, and died
in 1544, having had issue, one daughter.
7) ELEANOR CLIFFORD, born about 1498/99, married 1st, 1526 (Papal
dispensation 18 May), Sir Ninian Markenfield, of Markenfield, Yorkshire
(b. 14??, d. 25 March 1528), 2nd son of Sir Thomas Markenfield by
Eleanor Conyers of Hornby. Dame Eleanor married 2nd (as his 3rd wife),
Sir John Constable, of Burton Constable, Yorkshire (b. October 1479, d.
1537), eldest son of Ralph Constable of Burton Constable by Anne Eure,
and died without issue November 1540.
[Note: Eleanor married about ten years later than her other sisters and
is left off the Clifford pedigree in the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire.
The estimated birthdates for her and Sir Thomas Clifford are assuming
that their sister Margaret was born after them. But if Margaret was
left off the c.1505 pedigree by oversight, as Elizabeth may have been,
then Thomas and Eleanor may have been born 1500-05.]
8) MARGARET CLIFFORD, born by 1500, married at Barden Tower 1515
(license 6 January), Sir Cuthbert Radcliffe, of Dilston, Northumberland
(b. by 1491, d. 20 July 1545), 1st son of Sir Edward Radcliffe of
Cartington by Anne Cartington, and died about 1550, having had four
sons and three daughters.

Issue of 10th Lord Clifford (by his second wife Florence Pudsey, or
possibly illegitimate):

9) DOROTHY CLIFFORD, born by 1515, married about 1530, Sir Hugh
Lowther, of Lowther Hall, Westmorland (b. 1505, d. 1546), son and heir
of Sir John Lowther of Lowther, and died 13 September 1562, having had
issue (eldest son born 14 January 1532). [Note: she is not mentioned at
all in the Clifford or Pudsey pedigrees in the 1563 Visitation of
Yorkshire.]

Lady Anne Clifford (1590-1676), daughter and heiress of the 3rd Earl of
Cumberland, wrote in her diary that the 10th Lord Clifford had "many
base children". Given that fact, plus the fact that Elizabeth and
Margaret do not appear as daughters of Anne St. John in the c.1505
pedigree, plus the many errors in the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire (the
only source so far that infers they were daughters of Anne St. John),
they may well have been illegitimate.

Cheers, ----------Brad

John Brandon

Re: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 feb 2006 18:16:06

Brad Verity wrote:
only source so far that infers they were daughters of Anne St. John),
they may well have been illegitimate.

Cheers, ----------Brad

Don't you mean "implies"? (Only a person can "infer" something.)

There is a Tonge pedigree in Surtees' _Durham_ which shows this
Clifford-Tonge marriage.

Brad Verity

Re: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 11 feb 2006 21:51:48

John Brandon wrote:

Don't you mean "implies"? (Only a person can "infer" something.)

Quite correct. Sorry for the poor vocabulary.

There is a Tonge pedigree in Surtees' _Durham_ which shows this
Clifford-Tonge marriage.

Does it show Anne St. John as the mother of Elizabeth Clifford Tonge?

Thanks and Cheers, --------Brad

John Brandon

Re: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 feb 2006 22:37:51

Does it show Anne St. John as the mother of Elizabeth Clifford Tonge?

Not that I remember, just states she was daughter of Lord Clifford and
widow of Bowes, I think.

But with no will for the 10th Lord Clifford, and contemporary pedigrees
very contradictory about the number and names of his daughters, I think
it might be safer to conclude that Miss St. John was Elizabeth's
mother, rather than that she was illegit. ...

Why should we necessarily believe N.H. Nicolas when he dates that
pedigree to 1505?

Brad Verity

Re: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 12 feb 2006 05:29:37

John Brandon wrote:

Does it show Anne St. John as the mother of Elizabeth Clifford Tonge?

Not that I remember, just states she was daughter of Lord Clifford and
widow of Bowes, I think.

OK.

But with no will for the 10th Lord Clifford, and contemporary pedigrees
very contradictory about the number and names of his daughters, I think
it might be safer to conclude that Miss St. John was Elizabeth's
mother, rather than that she was illegit. ...

I agree. I do feel though that the identification of Dame Elizabeth
Bowes and Dame Margaret Radcliffe as daughters of Anne St. John is less
solid than those of the other daughters who do appear in the pedigree
of c.1505. Because that information was gathered during the lifetime
of the 10th Lord Clifford, and possibly even during the lifetime of
Anne St. John, it seems unusual that two daughters who were known to
survive infancy and go on to marry, were left off of the pedigree.
Especially when the other children listed match up so well to known
chronology and appear to be, unusually, listed in order of birth.

Why should we necessarily believe N.H. Nicolas when he dates that
pedigree to 1505?

It's a rough estimate, but he does date the pedigrees to the latter
half of Henry VII's reign. Nicolas: "The valuable volume in which
these pedigrees occur, appears to have been the compilation of a Herald
about the latter part of the reign of Henry the Seventh. At folio 286
a collection commences of the pedigrees of numerous families who were
descended from the blood royal, or from some other common ancestor of
King Henry VII, or of his consort Elizabeth of York. Some of these
descents are headed, 'Of dyvers oder Nobles wyche ben to the Kyng in
the 3 degree.' 'Here under showeth how the more part of the Nobles of
this Realme ben within degree of marriage of my Lord Prince Arthur.'
'How the Duc of Bukyngham [and other Peers] ys of the Kyng's blod,'
etc." ['Collectanea Topographica et Genealogia', Volume 1, p. 295].

Cheers, -------------Brad

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