Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Matthew Hovius
Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Several years ago the early ancestry of the St John family was
discussed in a post that can be found in the archives of SGM, but for
most of the information no sources were cited. The posts mentioned an
Alexander St. John of Instow (Devon), who was living in 1340.
In case anyone is still looking for sources for this information, it
now appears that key parts of this information were drawn from the
following document, catalogued in PROCAT:
'C 143/248/17: Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth his wife and
Oliver de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth his wife to settle the manors of
East Luccombe (Somers.) and Stockleigh Luccombe [in Cheriton Fitzpaine]
co. Devon, with the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and
Selworthy, on the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for their
lives, with remainder to the said Oliver and Elizabeth his wife and the
heirs of their bodies, remainder to John son of the said Alexander and
the heirs of his body, remainder to Theobald brother of John and the
heirs of his body, remainder to Henry brother of Theobald and the heirs
of his body, remainder to the right heirs of the said John, retaining
land in Instow. 13 EDWARD III.'
That 1998 posting also identified the wife of Oliver St John as
Elizabeth de Luccombe, daughter of a Hugh de Luccombe. Some chancery
suits conform that the manor of East Luccombe did remain in the hands
of the St Johns:
C 44/10/13 Parties: Rex v Seynt Johan Subject: Manor of East Luccombe
(annexed are a writ and return super causa capcionis and an extract
from the Red Book of the Exchequer) County: Som 4 Ric II
C 44/12/1 Parties: Rex v St John Subject: Manor of East Luccombe
County: Som 7 Ric II
C 44/13/5 Parties: St John v Earl of Nottingham Subject: Manor of East
Luccombe & advowsons of East Luccombe & Syllyworthy County: Som 8 Ric
II
An extra bit of data about this Luccombe family can now be found
through Google Book Search. From the 'Nomina Villarum' of Somerset, 16
Edward III - P. 36:
'Hund: de Caringtone (Carhampton)
Loccome. Item Hugo de Loccome tenet iiij. feodum de Henrico de Pinkeny,
et idem Henricus de Rege, set non fit mentio per quod servicium, &c.'
The St John/Luccombe connection is also mentioned in passing in 'The
Registers of Walter Giffard, Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1265-1266, and
of Henry Bowett, Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1401-1407', at the end under
'Notes on Bowet's Register' (P. 93):
'108. For the St. John's of Luccombe, cf. Collinson, ii.,23. Elizabeth
de Luccombe married Oliver de St. John, the father of Henry, and
brought this manor with her.'
discussed in a post that can be found in the archives of SGM, but for
most of the information no sources were cited. The posts mentioned an
Alexander St. John of Instow (Devon), who was living in 1340.
In case anyone is still looking for sources for this information, it
now appears that key parts of this information were drawn from the
following document, catalogued in PROCAT:
'C 143/248/17: Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth his wife and
Oliver de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth his wife to settle the manors of
East Luccombe (Somers.) and Stockleigh Luccombe [in Cheriton Fitzpaine]
co. Devon, with the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and
Selworthy, on the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for their
lives, with remainder to the said Oliver and Elizabeth his wife and the
heirs of their bodies, remainder to John son of the said Alexander and
the heirs of his body, remainder to Theobald brother of John and the
heirs of his body, remainder to Henry brother of Theobald and the heirs
of his body, remainder to the right heirs of the said John, retaining
land in Instow. 13 EDWARD III.'
That 1998 posting also identified the wife of Oliver St John as
Elizabeth de Luccombe, daughter of a Hugh de Luccombe. Some chancery
suits conform that the manor of East Luccombe did remain in the hands
of the St Johns:
C 44/10/13 Parties: Rex v Seynt Johan Subject: Manor of East Luccombe
(annexed are a writ and return super causa capcionis and an extract
from the Red Book of the Exchequer) County: Som 4 Ric II
C 44/12/1 Parties: Rex v St John Subject: Manor of East Luccombe
County: Som 7 Ric II
C 44/13/5 Parties: St John v Earl of Nottingham Subject: Manor of East
Luccombe & advowsons of East Luccombe & Syllyworthy County: Som 8 Ric
II
An extra bit of data about this Luccombe family can now be found
through Google Book Search. From the 'Nomina Villarum' of Somerset, 16
Edward III - P. 36:
'Hund: de Caringtone (Carhampton)
Loccome. Item Hugo de Loccome tenet iiij. feodum de Henrico de Pinkeny,
et idem Henricus de Rege, set non fit mentio per quod servicium, &c.'
The St John/Luccombe connection is also mentioned in passing in 'The
Registers of Walter Giffard, Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1265-1266, and
of Henry Bowett, Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1401-1407', at the end under
'Notes on Bowet's Register' (P. 93):
'108. For the St. John's of Luccombe, cf. Collinson, ii.,23. Elizabeth
de Luccombe married Oliver de St. John, the father of Henry, and
brought this manor with her.'
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Gjest
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Matthew Hovius wrote:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0886068033
seems to be the one; thanks for posting the information.
Several years ago the early ancestry of the St John family was
discussed in a post that can be found in the archives of SGM, but for
most of the information no sources were cited.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0886068033
seems to be the one; thanks for posting the information.
-
Merilyn Pedrick
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Thankyou for posting this link to the Gen-Med archives.
The St. Johns I have are ancestral to the Worsley family.
I have the same as in this post, from Alexander St. John but deviate after
Oliver St. John and Margaret Beauchamp.
Instead of John St. John I have:
1. Oliver St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire d. 3 Apr 1497 in
Fontarabia (wherever that is) m. Elizabeth le Scrope daughter of Henry le
Scrope and Elizabeth le Scrope of Masham.
2. John St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire b. 1473, d. 1 Sep 1512, m.
Jane Iwardby, daughter of Sir John Iwardby of Fitznells and Sancia Carew.
3. John St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire b. abt. 1505 d. 1 Apr 1576,
m. Elizabeth Whettle daughter of Sir Richard Whettle.
4. William St. John of Farley-St. John, b. 1 Aug 1538, d. 18 Apr 1609, m.
Barbara Gore daughter of Thomas Gore of Nether Wallop.
5. Barbara St. John m. in 1585 Thomas Worsley b. 1553, d. 1604.
In one place in the post, the writer says "The line from Sir Robert back
five more generations to Hugh de Port is certain". Do any of you know about
this line, and if so could you please post it?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 02/09/06 19:23:24
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Matthew Hovius wrote:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0886068033
seems to be the one; thanks for posting the information.
The St. Johns I have are ancestral to the Worsley family.
I have the same as in this post, from Alexander St. John but deviate after
Oliver St. John and Margaret Beauchamp.
Instead of John St. John I have:
1. Oliver St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire d. 3 Apr 1497 in
Fontarabia (wherever that is) m. Elizabeth le Scrope daughter of Henry le
Scrope and Elizabeth le Scrope of Masham.
2. John St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire b. 1473, d. 1 Sep 1512, m.
Jane Iwardby, daughter of Sir John Iwardby of Fitznells and Sancia Carew.
3. John St. John of Lydiard Tregoz, Wiltshire b. abt. 1505 d. 1 Apr 1576,
m. Elizabeth Whettle daughter of Sir Richard Whettle.
4. William St. John of Farley-St. John, b. 1 Aug 1538, d. 18 Apr 1609, m.
Barbara Gore daughter of Thomas Gore of Nether Wallop.
5. Barbara St. John m. in 1585 Thomas Worsley b. 1553, d. 1604.
In one place in the post, the writer says "The line from Sir Robert back
five more generations to Hugh de Port is certain". Do any of you know about
this line, and if so could you please post it?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 02/09/06 19:23:24
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Matthew Hovius wrote:
Several years ago the early ancestry of the St John family was
discussed in a post that can be found in the archives of SGM, but for
most of the information no sources were cited.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0886068033
seems to be the one; thanks for posting the information.
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
In message of 10 Feb, pedricks@ozemail.com.au ("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:
I have been told recently by a very well-informed St John researcher
that J H Round pronounced on this matter in "The families of St.John
and of Port" by J. H. Round in The Genealogist New Series, Vol 16, part
1 (July 1899) pp.1 - 13.
This is on my list of things to copy on my next visit to the library of
the Society of Genealogists.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In one place in the post, the writer says "The line from Sir Robert back
five more generations to Hugh de Port is certain". Do any of you know about
this line, and if so could you please post it?
I have been told recently by a very well-informed St John researcher
that J H Round pronounced on this matter in "The families of St.John
and of Port" by J. H. Round in The Genealogist New Series, Vol 16, part
1 (July 1899) pp.1 - 13.
This is on my list of things to copy on my next visit to the library of
the Society of Genealogists.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Merilyn Pedrick
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
I would be very interested in whatever you find at the SOG Tim.
Thanks.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe
Date: 02/10/06 15:20:36
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
In message of 10 Feb, pedricks@ozemail.com.au ("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:
I have been told recently by a very well-informed St John researcher
that J H Round pronounced on this matter in "The families of St.John
and of Port" by J. H. Round in The Genealogist New Series, Vol 16, part
1 (July 1899) pp.1 - 13.
This is on my list of things to copy on my next visit to the library of
the Society of Genealogists.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Thanks.
Merilyn
-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe
Date: 02/10/06 15:20:36
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
In message of 10 Feb, pedricks@ozemail.com.au ("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:
In one place in the post, the writer says "The line from Sir Robert back
five more generations to Hugh de Port is certain". Do any of you know
about
this line, and if so could you please post it?
I have been told recently by a very well-informed St John researcher
that J H Round pronounced on this matter in "The families of St.John
and of Port" by J. H. Round in The Genealogist New Series, Vol 16, part
1 (July 1899) pp.1 - 13.
This is on my list of things to copy on my next visit to the library of
the Society of Genealogists.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Matthew Hovius wrote:
was a daughter of Sir John III Arundell by his (1) wife, Elizabeth
Carminow. Oliver's father is not named.
Several years ago the early ancestry of the St John family was
discussed in a post that can be found in the archives of SGM, but for
most of the information no sources were cited. The posts mentioned an
Alexander St. John of Instow (Devon), who was living in 1340.
One possible addition: HoP says that the mother of Sir Oliver (d.1374)
was a daughter of Sir John III Arundell by his (1) wife, Elizabeth
Carminow. Oliver's father is not named.
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Matthew Hovius
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
So would I.
Thanks,
Matthew
"Merilyn Pedrick" wrote:
Thanks,
Matthew
"Merilyn Pedrick" wrote:
I would be very interested in whatever you find at the SOG Tim.
Thanks.
Merilyn
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
In message of 10 Feb, pedricks@ozemail.com.au ("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:
Well, I found the article and photocopied it. Because it was at the
beginning of the fairly tightly bound book, it was difficult to copy
pages 1, 3 and 5. So I scanned the photocopies of those three pages at
8-bit greyscale instead of the normal 1-bit black and white. This
means that the file is larger and those three pages will take longer to
load.
As usual with scanning, the results look better if you print them out
than on the screen.
Personally, from a bit of digging around, I reckon Round gave the CP
authors a marvellous first step for their articles. I could not see
that CP had anything different. And the article does not provide a
clear statement of the link from the earlier St John family to the
later one, but that was not Round's objective.
It's another of his enjoyable Round articles, anyhow. The date of
Volume XVI is 1899-1900.
Get all 3.1 Mbytes at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscripts/StJPort.pdf
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
I would be very interested in whatever you find at the SOG Tim.
Well, I found the article and photocopied it. Because it was at the
beginning of the fairly tightly bound book, it was difficult to copy
pages 1, 3 and 5. So I scanned the photocopies of those three pages at
8-bit greyscale instead of the normal 1-bit black and white. This
means that the file is larger and those three pages will take longer to
load.
As usual with scanning, the results look better if you print them out
than on the screen.
Personally, from a bit of digging around, I reckon Round gave the CP
authors a marvellous first step for their articles. I could not see
that CP had anything different. And the article does not provide a
clear statement of the link from the earlier St John family to the
later one, but that was not Round's objective.
It's another of his enjoyable Round articles, anyhow. The date of
Volume XVI is 1899-1900.
Get all 3.1 Mbytes at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscripts/StJPort.pdf
-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe
Date: 02/10/06 15:20:36
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
In message of 10 Feb, pedricks@ozemail.com.au ("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:
In one place in the post, the writer says "The line from Sir Robert
back five more generations to Hugh de Port is certain". Do any of
you know about this line, and if so could you please post it?
I have been told recently by a very well-informed St John researcher
that J H Round pronounced on this matter in "The families of St.John
and of Port" by J. H. Round in The Genealogist New Series, Vol 16, part
1 (July 1899) pp.1 - 13.
This is on my list of things to copy on my next visit to the library of
the Society of Genealogists.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Matthew Hovius
Re: Corrected St. John ancestry - Sources
Tim,
Just downloaded and printed off the scans - many thanks. This was most
helpful.
Matthew
Just downloaded and printed off the scans - many thanks. This was most
helpful.
Matthew