Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Count [R

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Douglas Richardson

Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Count [R

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 07 feb 2006 17:52:57

Dear John ~

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously indicated
that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas you had about
1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who appears on a list
of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey Plantagenet,
Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist.
de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707]. Thus, it appears that Count/Duke
Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before 1195, as I
note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his brother, Henri,
witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan (husband of
Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference: Morice, Memoires
pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 698]. This
charter dates sometime before Alain III's death, which I show took
place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz Count (son and heir
of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks of Saint Jagu in
1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records together, it appears
that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was presumably dead before
1195, and certainly dead before 1201.

According to Morice, Count/Duke Eudes of Brittany married (1st) Bertha
of Brittany, heiress of Brittany, by whom he had three children,
Geoffrey (living in 1155 and died young), Adelice, Abbess of
Fontevrault, and Alix (wife of Guy Mauvoisin, seigneur of Rosny); and
by his 2nd marriage to Alienor, daughter of Guiomarch IV, Count of
Léon, he had two sons, Eudes [Fitz Count] and Henri (or Hervé)
[Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1
(1750): xv, xx-xxi]. Count/Duke Eudes' first daughter, "Adelice," is
vouched for by two records reported by Morice, one taken from the
Necrology of Fontevrault, the other taken from the Obituary of
Fontevrault. In the first record, she is called "Adelidis Abbatissa
Comitis Britanniæ filia;" in the second record, she is called Domina
Adelides de Britannia Fontis Ebraldi venerabilis Abbatissa, Eudonis
Comitis Britanniæ filia." [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 845]. I note that Morice
translates the Latin name, Adelidis, as Adelice rather than its correct
form, Alix. So, he inadvertedly assigns two daughters named Alix to
Count/Duke Eudes' first marriage, one who was the Abbess and one who
married Guy Mauvoisin. While men in this time period did occasionally
have two daughters of the same name, they were often by different
wives. If so, it is possible that Alix, wife of Gui Mauvoisin (if Alix
was her name), was a child of Count/Duke Eudes' 2nd marriage to Alienor
de Léon.

Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count, I find him
consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes Fitz
Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet, Morice's pedigree
chart of this family which is cited above states he was Count of
Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is so, the
contemporary charters do not bear this out. He is not called count in
any of charters I have found for him in the period, pre-1195 to 1231.
Nor is he styled count in any of the numerous documents regarding the
division of his estates published by Morice, but his father is always
so styled. He is likewise never associated with a surname, Porhoet,
although I find modern editors assign this surname to him and his
children. This can easily mislead the uninformed, Richard.

So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up. Also,
problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical. Shades of
Henriette Marie!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: wwww.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 07 feb 2006 20:19:31

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously indicated
that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas you had about
1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who appears on a list
of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey Plantagenet,

To the Newsgroup:

As has so often been the case in the past and coninues in this thread,
Richardson has tried to change the subject from his so-called "Geoffrey
Plantagenet" to another Breton with a title about which I have said
nothing. This is just another example of how Richardson twists things
in order to avoid having to admit error.

Again: Does he find "Geoffrey Plantagenet" in his source; or has he
inserted the surname "Plantagenet" ? It is a simple question.

Again: participants in the Newsgroup will note that Richardson removes
and resubmits his posts. I do not know whether this is customary with
this group. So far as I can see, it is new. I suspect that it is a new
tactic on Richardson's part to avoid unpleasant questions and admission
of error.

In the past, Richardson has used various tactics against other listers
(some of which were not open for all to see) and has driven them into
non-participation. I am sure that I need not name names. The one
regret expressed by them all has been the failure on the part of many
otherwise responsible listers to hold Richardson to account. If this
'remove and revise' tactic, and the others (even less honourable) are
intended to do the same with me, it is not well advised.

Until the next remove and revise,

Best wishes to all good listers,

CED



Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist.
de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707]. Thus, it appears that Count/Duke
Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before 1195, as I
note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his brother, Henri,
witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan (husband of
Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference: Morice, Memoires
pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 698]. This
charter dates sometime before Alain III's death, which I show took
place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz Count (son and heir
of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks of Saint Jagu in
1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records together, it appears
that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was presumably dead before
1195, and certainly dead before 1201.

According to Morice, Count/Duke Eudes of Brittany married (1st) Bertha
of Brittany, heiress of Brittany, by whom he had three children,
Geoffrey (living in 1155 and died young), Adelice, Abbess of
Fontevrault, and Alix (wife of Guy Mauvoisin, seigneur of Rosny); and
by his 2nd marriage to Alienor, daughter of Guiomarch IV, Count of
Léon, he had two sons, Eudes [Fitz Count] and Henri (or Hervé)
[Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1
(1750): xv, xx-xxi]. Count/Duke Eudes' first daughter, "Adelice," is
vouched for by two records reported by Morice, one taken from the
Necrology of Fontevrault, the other taken from the Obituary of
Fontevrault. In the first record, she is called "Adelidis Abbatissa
Comitis Britanniæ filia;" in the second record, she is called Domina
Adelides de Britannia Fontis Ebraldi venerabilis Abbatissa, Eudonis
Comitis Britanniæ filia." [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 845]. I note that Morice
translates the Latin name, Adelidis, as Adelice rather than its correct
form, Alix. So, he inadvertedly assigns two daughters named Alix to
Count/Duke Eudes' first marriage, one who was the Abbess and one who
married Guy Mauvoisin. While men in this time period did occasionally
have two daughters of the same name, they were often by different
wives. If so, it is possible that Alix, wife of Gui Mauvoisin (if Alix
was her name), was a child of Count/Duke Eudes' 2nd marriage to Alienor
de Léon.

Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count, I find him
consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes Fitz
Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet, Morice's pedigree
chart of this family which is cited above states he was Count of
Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is so, the
contemporary charters do not bear this out. He is not called count in
any of charters I have found for him in the period, pre-1195 to 1231.
Nor is he styled count in any of the numerous documents regarding the
division of his estates published by Morice, but his father is always
so styled. He is likewise never associated with a surname, Porhoet,
although I find modern editors assign this surname to him and his
children. This can easily mislead the uninformed, Richard.

So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up. Also,
problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical. Shades of
Henriette Marie!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: wwww.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 07 feb 2006 20:45:16

CED wrote:
In the past, Richardson has used various tactics against other listers
(some of which were not open for all to see) and has driven them into
non-participation. I am sure that I need not name names.

CED

CED must be thinking of Richard Smith. He's the man who sent
Richardson private e-mails threatening to come to his house and shoot
him. All because Richardson said that Alice of France, wife of
Guillaume, Count of Ponthieu, was the daughter of Constance of Castile.
Smith then posted a private e-mail on the newsgroup that caused a huge
uprorar.

Ever heard of him, CED?

DR

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 07 feb 2006 20:59:35

Douglas Richardson wrote:
CED wrote:
In the past, Richardson has used various tactics against other listers
(some of which were not open for all to see) and has driven them into
non-participation. I am sure that I need not name names.

CED

CED must be thinking of Richard Smith. He's the man who sent
Richardson private e-mails threatening to come to his house and shoot
him. All because Richardson said that Alice of France, wife of
Guillaume, Count of Ponthieu, was the daughter of Constance of Castile.
Smith then posted a private e-mail on the newsgroup that caused a huge
uprorar.

Ever heard of him, CED?

To the Newsgroup:

Is this another tactic by Richardson? If so, it is unorthodox.

If Richardson has private e-mails which threaten him, these are
probably actionable at law.

I would advise him:

(1) Take them to both Federal and Utah authorities, so that proper
criminal proceedings can be initiated; and

(2) Consult an attorney about civil action for monetary damages for
intentional infliction of emotional distress.

CED
DR

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 07 feb 2006 22:37:29

CED wrote:
Again: participants in the Newsgroup will note that Richardson removes
and resubmits his posts. I do not know whether this is customary with
this group. So far as I can see, it is new.

I don't know about 'removing' them. This may happen in Google Groups,
through which Mr. Richardson posts, but that is not 'this group'. In
soc.genealogy.medieval, all of Mr. Richardson's posts appear - the
original and the (apparently) corrected version(s). The same is true
with GEN-MEDIEVAL (mailing list). Basically, given the way things are
configured, with USENET group, mailing list and various web-based
archives and posting services, each operating under distinct rules, once
a post hits the ether, effectively it cannot be 'removed'.

taf

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 08 feb 2006 01:08:54

In message of 7 Feb, "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

CED wrote:
Again: participants in the Newsgroup will note that Richardson removes
and resubmits his posts. I do not know whether this is customary with
this group. So far as I can see, it is new.

I don't know about 'removing' them. This may happen in Google Groups,
through which Mr. Richardson posts, but that is not 'this group'. In
soc.genealogy.medieval, all of Mr. Richardson's posts appear - the
original and the (apparently) corrected version(s). The same is true
with GEN-MEDIEVAL (mailing list). Basically, given the way things are
configured, with USENET group, mailing list and various web-based
archives and posting services, each operating under distinct rules, once
a post hits the ether, effectively it cannot be 'removed'.

I was assuming that all this talk of removing only applied to Google
Groups, which is but one type of at least three gateways to this
discussion group.

I am not yet sure what is removed from where:

Does Google still provide an old-fashioned archive of many newsgroups?
If so, can posts be removed from this?

Presumably removing posts from Rootsweb's archive is a totally
different matter and may not be possible at all?

Finally the various newsservers around the globe already delete their
news feeds after a month or so, less for binary groups. So are the
only places where posts may be stored for ever (a) Rootsweb's archive
and (b) whatever is left of Google's archive? Or does some other firm
provide a newsgroup archive as well?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Ginny Wagner

RE: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 08 feb 2006 08:54:00

Daniel Power deals with the Porhoet family a bit in his
Norman Frontier. I noticed that it is in the Google Books
if you don't have a copy or access to it. Under the
Mauvoisin family tree, "For Guy II's claims to Porhoet in
1235, see Layettes, ii, nos. 2389-94, 2399-400. A footnote
says that Guy II's mother, Alice, lady of Vetheuil, fl.
1190-1201, was called 'Brita' ('the Breton woman').

It really seems to me that many seemed to have two names ...
maybe even that sometimes one of the names signified their
"occupation" or position.

Where did you find Morice's work? Is it online?

Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:53 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz
Count
[Revised Post]


Dear John ~

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of
Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV,
Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not
provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet
family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1
(1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of
Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have
seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes
Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of
Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that
this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very
much like
to know about it.

Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously
indicated
that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas
you had about
1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who
appears on a list
of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey
Plantagenet,
Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist.
de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707]. Thus, it appears that
Count/Duke
Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before
1195, as I
note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his
brother, Henri,
witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan (husband
of
Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference: Morice,
Memoires
pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742):
698]. This
charter dates sometime before Alain III's death, which I
show took
place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz Count (son
and heir
of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks of Saint
Jagu in
1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a
l'Hist. de
Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records together, it
appears
that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was presumably
dead before
1195, and certainly dead before 1201.

According to Morice, Count/Duke Eudes of Brittany married
(1st) Bertha
of Brittany, heiress of Brittany, by whom he had three
children,
Geoffrey (living in 1155 and died young), Adelice, Abbess of
Fontevrault, and Alix (wife of Guy Mauvoisin, seigneur of
Rosny); and
by his 2nd marriage to Alienor, daughter of Guiomarch IV,
Count of
Léon, he had two sons, Eudes [Fitz Count] and Henri (or
Hervé)
[Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de
Bretagne, 1
(1750): xv, xx-xxi]. Count/Duke Eudes' first daughter,
"Adelice," is
vouched for by two records reported by Morice, one taken
from the
Necrology of Fontevrault, the other taken from the Obituary
of
Fontevrault. In the first record, she is called "Adelidis
Abbatissa
Comitis Britanniæ filia;" in the second record, she is
called Domina
Adelides de Britannia Fontis Ebraldi venerabilis Abbatissa,
Eudonis
Comitis Britanniæ filia." [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour
Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 845]. I note that
Morice
translates the Latin name, Adelidis, as Adelice rather than
its correct
form, Alix. So, he inadvertedly assigns two daughters named
Alix to
Count/Duke Eudes' first marriage, one who was the Abbess and
one who
married Guy Mauvoisin. While men in this time period did
occasionally
have two daughters of the same name, they were often by
different
wives. If so, it is possible that Alix, wife of Gui
Mauvoisin (if Alix
was her name), was a child of Count/Duke Eudes' 2nd marriage
to Alienor
de Léon.

Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count,
I find him
consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes
Fitz
Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet,
Morice's pedigree
chart of this family which is cited above states he was
Count of
Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is
so, the
contemporary charters do not bear this out. He is not
called count in
any of charters I have found for him in the period, pre-1195
to 1231.
Nor is he styled count in any of the numerous documents
regarding the
division of his estates published by Morice, but his father
is always
so styled. He is likewise never associated with a surname,
Porhoet,
although I find modern editors assign this surname to him
and his
children. This can easily mislead the uninformed, Richard.

So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up.
Also,
problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical.
Shades of
Henriette Marie!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: wwww.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 feb 2006 21:28:00

My dear CED ~

I believe you would do well to go to the weblink below which is part of
the index for the book, Norman Frontier in the Twelvth and Early
Thirteenth Centuries, by Daniel Power, published in 2004. There you
will find that the author refers to Geoffrey (Plantagenet), husband of
Duchess Constance of Brittany.

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... B5HPNs41K8

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 feb 2006 21:48:32

Dear Ginny ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

I see that there is a modern pedigree of the Fougeres family in Daniel
Power's recent work, Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Thirteenth
Centuries (2004), pg. 499. Below is a weblink to the pedigree chart:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 9WZMNz5e1Y

Mr. Power shows that Avice, daughter of Richard Fitz Gilbert and Rohese
Giffard, married Roaul I de Fougeres (died 1124), by whom she had three
sons, Maino-Fransgualo (died 1124), Henry (died 1150), and Robert
Giffard. Power provides quite a few sources below his chart as
documentation of his pedigree of the Fougeres family.

I also note that Power identifies Raoul III de Fougeres (died 1256) as
the grandson of Eudo fitzCount (de Porhoet), with no reference to Eudo
being Count of Porhoet as alleged by Morice and other sources. I
believe Power is correct in withdrawing the title of Count of Porhoet.
To date I haven't found any record in which Eudo fitzCount was styled
count.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

"Ginny Wagner" wrote:
Daniel Power deals with the Porhoet family a bit in his
Norman Frontier. I noticed that it is in the Google Books
if you don't have a copy or access to it. Under the
Mauvoisin family tree, "For Guy II's claims to Porhoet in
1235, see Layettes, ii, nos. 2389-94, 2399-400. A footnote
says that Guy II's mother, Alice, lady of Vetheuil, fl.
1190-1201, was called 'Brita' ('the Breton woman').

It really seems to me that many seemed to have two names ...
maybe even that sometimes one of the names signified their
"occupation" or position.

Where did you find Morice's work? Is it online?

Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Ginny Wagner

RE: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 09 feb 2006 00:20:02

Dear Douglas,
Thank you for the information. I do have the Power book and
yes, in pedigree #15 of Fougeres, Eudo is called of Porhoet
and fitzCount ... telling also, is the pedigree #20 on page
507 of Mauvoisin (Rosny) wherein Guy II, married to Juliana
de Tillieres, is a claimant to Porhoet in 1235.

p. 137 "1161 magnate Eudo de Porhoet" n. 131

p. 236 ...a match between the Breton family of Porhoet and
the French family of Mauvoisin, which Depoin dated to before
1201, Ctl. Pontoise, 263-4, 267 n. 61

p. 404 "William Mauvoisin attended King Henry's [II] court
in Normandy and England, possibly aided by his alleged
kinship with Count Eudo of Brittany, and a contemporary even
depicted him advising the king on the eve of Becket's
murder. [93]

[fn93] William FitzStephen: 'Willelmus cognomento Malus
Vicinus, nepos Eudonis comitis Britanniae' (Becket
Materials, iii., 129). William Mauvoisin witnessed the
treaty of Falaise and ... 'Count Eudo' (de Porhoet) had
broken faith with Henry II by 1168, returning to the Angevin
fold in 1175 (Everard 2000, 45-6, 53-4).

In The Bretons by Galliou and Jones, p. 190 speaking of
civil war ca. WTC time, ... between Conan and his former
guardian, Eudes. In 1064, WTC "even campaigned in Brittany
against Conan II in support of Rivallon of Combour. When
Conan died in 1066, the ducal title passed to Hoel, count of
Cornouaille and Nantes, who from 1066 to 1084, thanks to his
marriage to Conan's sister Havoise, held all the major
counties of the duchy."

Paraphrased from The Bretons:

Victory by WTC in 1066 promoted the interests of Count
Eudes, the late duke's uncle, and his descendants. ...
rewarded with Richmond ... linked their lands in Brittany
.... Penthievre and the Tregor, ... challenged Hoel and his
son Alain IV (Alain Fergant, 1084 -1112) for supremacy. ...
illegitimate son of Alain III, Geoffroy Grenonat, ... given
the county of Rennes for life ... opposed ducal authority
but no match.

Alain IV took Constance, daughter of the Conqueror for first
wife, when she died, Alain IV married Ermengarde, daughter
of Fulk le Rechin (1067/8-1109) and Angevin, rather than
Norman influence held sway in Brittany.

Their son, Conan III (1112-48) was very religious as was
Duchess Ermengarde and they came to the notice of the
Capetians in 1123 Louis VI confirmed the priveleges of the
cathedral of Nantes first granted by Charles the Bald.

Basically, the Bretons ended up being swayed by whichever of
Normandy, Angevin or French were lining up together and
needed them. Conan II did not own land in England when
Henry I died, a cadet branch did own Richmond, and they were
fighting on both sides of the civil war between Matilda and
Stephen.

Matilda partisan was Count Alain (d. 1146), earl of
Richmond, husband of Conan III's daughter Bertha.

When Alain died, his widow, Bertha, married secondly the
powerful noble Eudon, viscount of Porhoet.

When Conan III died in 1148, after disinheriting his son
Hoel for unknown reasons, Eudon claimed the duchy on
Bertha's behalf. Civil war followed.

Eudon and Hoel fought, possibly Angevins connived to expel
Hoel in 1156. Conan IV (1156-1171), with the blessing of
Henry II who confirmed his succession as earl of Richmond,
took over from his step-father at Rennes, and turned Eudon
(d. 1179) into a rebel against ducal authority.

Conan IV acknowledged Henry II's overlordship at Avranches
at Michaelmas 1158, was at council of Clarendon in 1164,
1160 he married Marguerite, sister of Malcolm IV of Scotland
and their daughter, Constance, was arranged to marry Henry
II's fourth son, Geoffrey; Conan gave the administration of
most of Brittany to Henry II to hold for the child couple.

Henry II destroyed castles at Becherel, Lehon, Fougeres and
Rennes, among others, as he expropriated families to impose
Angevin rule. 1171-1181 Henry II administered through
seneschal and justiciar of the duchy.

The couple (Geoffrey and Constance) went to Brittany in 1181
under the watchful eye of Henry II, and in 1185 the Assize
of Count Geoffrey confirmed primogeniture as a principle in
noble successions. They had a daughter, Alienor; Geoffrey
died in August, 1186, King Philip of France claimed wardship
of Alienor.

Richard I made serious errors in his dealings with Duchess
Constance and her son, Arthur, so when King Philip promised
marriage for Arthur to his daughter, Marie, for homage in
1199, it was accepted.

From 1202, Kings of France, due to English King John's
failure to appear in court, were immediate suzerains of the
duchy.

King John murdered Arthur around Easter 1203, Gui de Thours,
third husband of the late Duchess Constance, was guardian of
their infant daughter, Alix, half-sister of the dead Arthur.

Her marriage was arranged by Philip II in 1212 to Pierre
Mauclerc, second son of the count of Dreux, a junior member
of the royal family. Alix died in 1221 and Pierre was
merely guardian on behalf of his son, Jean. Pierre
zigzagged between France and England, baronial coalitions
attracted wide support throughout Brittany.

In 1230 Breton barons appealed to England for help against
Pierre which gave Louis IX an excuse to intervene. In 1234,
Pierre was in league with Henry III, who offered the bait of
Richmond, but in 1237 his son took over and Jean I
(1237-1286), a skillful politician, remained on the throne
able to weave between the larger powers ... his was the
longest reign enjoyed by any Duke although this was the
beginning of the growth of the French monarchy who parcelled
out parts of Brittany, with the duke unable to marshall the
kind of military power that English kings could (The Hundred
Years' War) to forestall them.


Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 09 feb 2006 01:35:57

Douglas Richardson wrote:
My dear CED ~

I believe you would do well to go to the weblink below which is part of
the index for the book, Norman Frontier in the Twelvth and Early
Thirteenth Centuries, by Daniel Power, published in 2004. There you
will find that the author refers to Geoffrey (Plantagenet), husband of
Duchess Constance of Brittany.

To the Newsgroup:

Still Richardson fails to explain: does his source (the source he cited
[Morice]) use the word 'Plantagenet'? That is the question.
Otherwise, by what authority did he insert the word 'Plantagenet' in
his reference to that source?

Quoting another book written by another author does not justify his
mis-quoting the original source respecting the list "major barons of
Brittany issued" in 1185, by the duke of Brittany. [Morice, Morice
Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742):
706-707 ]. This is a matter of the credibility of his research. Can
his postings be trusted to be faithful to his sources? Does he fiddle
with his sources in his citations?

It would be so easy just to say: "I goofed." Instead he flails about
searching for a justification for bad research practice on such a
fundamental facet as citations to authority. If he refuses to say so,
then maybe he has good reason. Has he fiddled with other citations?
(A matter for examination)

In both his last posting and one previous posting, he has attempted to
confuse the matter by bringing up references to works other than his
original source [Morice]. Could it be that he has not done this
purposefully? Could it be that he does not know the difference?

This appears to be near the last of his twists to avoid admitting that
he ought not have done so. Now, I venture, if he follows pattern, that
we will see some kind of switch.

CED



http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... B5HPNs41K8

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 09 feb 2006 05:18:51

Douglas Richardson wrote:
My dear CED ~

I believe you would do well to go to the weblink below which is part of
the index for the book, Norman Frontier in the Twelvth and Early
Thirteenth Centuries, by Daniel Power, published in 2004. There you
will find that the author refers to Geoffrey (Plantagenet), husband of
Duchess Constance of Brittany.

To the Newsgroup:

I would hope that members of the Newsgroup would check the site given
by Richardson. It is an index of a book, not even a citation to any
authority. It includes as index items: "Henry I (Beauclerc); Henry II
(Plantagenet);" as well as the item Richardson chose to give us
regarding Geoffrey, duke of Brittany. Since when does an item in an
index equate with a citation of authority?

Does Richardson think that an index is the same as citations of
authority? Now I am beginning to understand some of the discussion
about citations (or the lack thereof) in other matters published by
Richardson.

CED

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... B5HPNs41K8

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 09 feb 2006 07:25:47

CED wrote:

Since when does an item in an
index equate with a citation of authority?

Independent of the issue at hand, this is worth highlighting. Indexes,
like headlines, are frequently not compiled by the author or by anyone
with the expertise of the author, and should not be taken as reflecting
the authors' opinions/conventions on the subject.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 09 feb 2006 18:20:22

To the newsgroup ~

I'm glad to hear that CED approves the use of the surname Plantagenet
for Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany, when it appears in a modern index.
That takes a load off my shoulders.

DR

CED wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
My dear CED ~

I believe you would do well to go to the weblink below which is part of
the index for the book, Norman Frontier in the Twelvth and Early
Thirteenth Centuries, by Daniel Power, published in 2004. There you
will find that the author refers to Geoffrey (Plantagenet), husband of
Duchess Constance of Brittany.

To the Newsgroup:

I would hope that members of the Newsgroup would check the site given
by Richardson. It is an index of a book, not even a citation to any
authority. It includes as index items: "Henry I (Beauclerc); Henry II
(Plantagenet);" as well as the item Richardson chose to give us
regarding Geoffrey, duke of Brittany. Since when does an item in an
index equate with a citation of authority?

Does Richardson think that an index is the same as citations of
authority? Now I am beginning to understand some of the discussion
about citations (or the lack thereof) in other matters published by
Richardson.

CED


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... B5HPNs41K8

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 09 feb 2006 19:57:06

Douglas Richardson wrote:
To the newsgroup ~

I'm glad to hear that CED approves the use of the surname Plantagenet
for Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany, when it appears in a modern index.
That takes a load off my shoulders.

To the Newsgroup:

Now we see the predicted switch. Richardson's pattern of practice holds
true - twist and switch. Next he will demand my source for my position
(ignoring the fact that I have stated none).

Where in my previous post does he find my approval (or disapproval)
that he claims to have heard? He seems to find what he wants to see,
regardless of its non-existence.

Why can't he admit that he goofed? It wasn't that big a deal until he
expanded it beyond the scope of my first post on the matter. His
original goof, which would have been noticed by few, has now, by adding
goof to goof, drawn the attention of many more. That should be a
lesson to be learned.

Still Richardson does not seem to understand the difference between an
index and a citation of authority. That being the case, can any of his
citations be trusted?


CED



DR

CED wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
My dear CED ~

I believe you would do well to go to the weblink below which is part of
the index for the book, Norman Frontier in the Twelvth and Early
Thirteenth Centuries, by Daniel Power, published in 2004. There you
will find that the author refers to Geoffrey (Plantagenet), husband of
Duchess Constance of Brittany.

To the Newsgroup:

I would hope that members of the Newsgroup would check the site given
by Richardson. It is an index of a book, not even a citation to any
authority. It includes as index items: "Henry I (Beauclerc); Henry II
(Plantagenet);" as well as the item Richardson chose to give us
regarding Geoffrey, duke of Brittany. Since when does an item in an
index equate with a citation of authority?

Does Richardson think that an index is the same as citations of
authority? Now I am beginning to understand some of the discussion
about citations (or the lack thereof) in other matters published by
Richardson.

CED


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... B5HPNs41K8

Good luck in your sleuthing!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Brad Verity

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 09 feb 2006 21:13:13

CED wrote:

Still Richardson does not seem to understand the difference between an
index and a citation of authority. That being the case, can any of his
citations be trusted?

Of course not. Every single source he cites needs to be
double-checked. There's always the possibility that he hasn't read
them. I've found a few in PA3 that he couldn't have read, as they go
into some genealogical details that he doesn't include in his potted
biographies. Then, even with the ones he has read, there's always the
danger of his misinterpreting them, which has been shown to happen on
this newsgroup.

I don't know of anyone who views Douglas as a scholar. He's a compiler
of information from secondary sources, who makes leaps in
interpretation that the evidence does not warrant. Still, compiling is
a useful endeavor. I don't have the time he does to surf Google Books,
nor do I have the access he has to the vast resources of the Salt Lake
City Family History and University libraries (though I do have access
to the UCLA Library, which is very good). So I use PA3 as a starting
off point, a kind of bibliography, just as I used PA1.

But I certainly don't view it as the final word on anything. For
instance there's a line of descent in PA3, called Aubrey, that starts
with Edward III and ends with Barbara Aubrey, who married John Bevan,
of Wales and Pennsylvania. Putting aside the fact that the Joan
Beaufort-Katherine Stradling-Walter Dennis line is far from certain
(and has been discussed at length on the newsgroup), the only sources
provided for Alice Raglan (who does have a solid descent from Edward I
through her grandmother Anne Berkeley) down to Barbara Aubrey are
Bartrum's 'Welsh Genealogies' and Clark's 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae', which are just modern compilations of Visitation and
other pedigrees. No primary sources are cited at all for six
generations, and this is the Tudor period when there are presumably
more records. That's not scholarship, that's what I call pedigree
punching - taking information from various pedigrees and compiling a
line of descent. I do it myself quite a bit, but I don't pass it off
as scholarly.

Who knows, though - the line from Alice Raglan down to Barbara Aubrey
might very well be valid. And someone seeing it in PA3 can use it as a
starting off point for a scholarly, well-researched look into it.

Cheers, -----------Brad

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 10 feb 2006 01:58:30

On 7 Feb 2006 08:52:57 -0800, "Douglas Richardson"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

[snip]

The following doesn't satisfy your request to the letter, but it is
pretty close: Under the year 1168, the chronicle of Robert de Torigny
refers to him as viscount of Porhoët. [This chronicle has been
published on a number of occasions. See, e.g., MGH SS, vol. 6, p.
517.]

Stewart Baldwin

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 feb 2006 02:27:05

Dear Stewart ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

As I've been going through the works by Morice, I've located a document
dated 1334 in which Count/Duke Eudes (husband of Bertha of Brittany) is
referred to as Eudes Count of Brittany, "alors" seigneur of Porhoet.
The first sentence below is the introduction to the document written by
Morice in which Eudes is styled "Count of Porhoet."

"Lettres de Charles de Valois sur l'Anniversaire d'Eudon Comte de
Porhoet:

Nous Charles de Valois frere du Roy de France, Comte d'Alencon, de
Perche, de Jooigny, Sire de Marqueul & de Fougeres, saisons savoir a
tous ceux qui ces letteres verront, que comme religieux hommes nos
chiers amis ... l'Abbe & le Convent de Mermoustier se deissent avoir
quarante souls tournois de rente ou d'aumosne chafcun au sur nostre
terre de Porhoet du don Eon Comte de Bretagne alors Seigneur de
Porhoet, pour faire son anniversaire chafcon an ... Donne a Essay le
XVIII. jour de Mars l'an de grace mil trois cent trente-quatre. Pris
sur l'original au Chartrier de Marmoustier." [Reference: Morice,
Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 1369].

The above transcript is missing the accent marks included by Morice.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
On 7 Feb 2006 08:52:57 -0800, "Douglas Richardson"
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

[snip]

The following doesn't satisfy your request to the letter, but it is
pretty close: Under the year 1168, the chronicle of Robert de Torigny
refers to him as viscount of Porhoët. [This chronicle has been
published on a number of occasions. See, e.g., MGH SS, vol. 6, p.
517.]

Stewart Baldwin

CED

Re: Eudes, Count/Duke of Brittany & his son, Eudes Fitz Coun

Legg inn av CED » 10 feb 2006 18:22:57

Brad Verity wrote:
CED wrote:

Still Richardson does not seem to understand the difference between an
index and a citation of authority. That being the case, can any of his
citations be trusted?

Of course not. Every single source he cites needs to be
double-checked. There's always the possibility that he hasn't read
them.

Brad:

I think we have another instance where Richardson hasn't even read the
book to which he refers. He sends us to the book authored by Power,
which, in the index, refers to 'Plantagenet' yet, when it comes to the
text of the book, neither Count Geoffrey of Anjou nor Geoffrey, duke of
Brittany, have been attributed the surname 'Plantagenet.'

Surely he would not have refered us to that book if he had read it and
knew what we now know: that the reference to 'Plantagenet' is in the
index and not the text (lending credence to taf's point that the index
is often put together by somebody other than the author). Or, maybe he
did read it and chose to mislead us. With Richardson's unorthodox
methods and patterns of practice, one can never tell - except that he
cannot be trusted.

CED

I've found a few in PA3 that he couldn't have read, as they go
into some genealogical details that he doesn't include in his potted
biographies. Then, even with the ones he has read, there's always the
danger of his misinterpreting them, which has been shown to happen on
this newsgroup.

I don't know of anyone who views Douglas as a scholar. He's a compiler
of information from secondary sources, who makes leaps in
interpretation that the evidence does not warrant. Still, compiling is
a useful endeavor. I don't have the time he does to surf Google Books,
nor do I have the access he has to the vast resources of the Salt Lake
City Family History and University libraries (though I do have access
to the UCLA Library, which is very good). So I use PA3 as a starting
off point, a kind of bibliography, just as I used PA1.

But I certainly don't view it as the final word on anything. For
instance there's a line of descent in PA3, called Aubrey, that starts
with Edward III and ends with Barbara Aubrey, who married John Bevan,
of Wales and Pennsylvania. Putting aside the fact that the Joan
Beaufort-Katherine Stradling-Walter Dennis line is far from certain
(and has been discussed at length on the newsgroup), the only sources
provided for Alice Raglan (who does have a solid descent from Edward I
through her grandmother Anne Berkeley) down to Barbara Aubrey are
Bartrum's 'Welsh Genealogies' and Clark's 'Limbus Patrum Morganiae et
Glamorganiae', which are just modern compilations of Visitation and
other pedigrees. No primary sources are cited at all for six
generations, and this is the Tudor period when there are presumably
more records. That's not scholarship, that's what I call pedigree
punching - taking information from various pedigrees and compiling a
line of descent. I do it myself quite a bit, but I don't pass it off
as scholarly.

Who knows, though - the line from Alice Raglan down to Barbara Aubrey
might very well be valid. And someone seeing it in PA3 can use it as a
starting off point for a scholarly, well-researched look into it.

Cheers, -----------Brad

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»