Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
W David Samuelsen
Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139280743>
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
W. David Samuelsen
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
W. David Samuelsen
-
Gjest
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
David,
Genealogy like history, is a discussion without end. Your snide is off
mark, silly even. CED and most listers here are better informed than
you imagine. The subject in question is the working method of Douglas
Richardson. He, as an author, should be clear all times in stating when
using fact, interpretation or fiction. As a researcher like so many
others he should be able to admit that he makes an occasional 'oops'.
Trying to cover ones tracks on internet, and hoping that no one saw it,
is foolish. CED puts his finger on Douglas's sore spot.
Hans Vogels
..
W David Samuelsen schreef:
Genealogy like history, is a discussion without end. Your snide is off
mark, silly even. CED and most listers here are better informed than
you imagine. The subject in question is the working method of Douglas
Richardson. He, as an author, should be clear all times in stating when
using fact, interpretation or fiction. As a researcher like so many
others he should be able to admit that he makes an occasional 'oops'.
Trying to cover ones tracks on internet, and hoping that no one saw it,
is foolish. CED puts his finger on Douglas's sore spot.
Hans Vogels
..
W David Samuelsen schreef:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139280743
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
W. David Samuelsen
-
Gjest
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
W David Samuelsen schrieb:
Oh dear, I suggest you do yours! No female Plantagenet married into
the houses of Lancaster and York: these were male-line branches of the
Plantagenet family who took their peerage titles (the Dukedoms of
Lancaster and York) as house names in order to distinguish one branch
from another. Thus, the last Plantagenet monarch was Richard III.
MAR
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139280743
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
Oh dear, I suggest you do yours! No female Plantagenet married into
the houses of Lancaster and York: these were male-line branches of the
Plantagenet family who took their peerage titles (the Dukedoms of
Lancaster and York) as house names in order to distinguish one branch
from another. Thus, the last Plantagenet monarch was Richard III.
MAR
-
CED
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
W David Samuelsen wrote:
To W. David Samuelson:
As I feared, Richardson's lack of scholarly methodology appears to have
led you astray. The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
(from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England, and
grandfather of Geoffrey, duke of Brittany (to whom Richardson appears
to be referring). That is the reason I posted the message on that name
- Richardson could, and apparently has, misled less well informed
listers.
Mr. Samuelson, I do not know how long you have been following the
postings on SGM. If you have done so for any time at all, you would
have known that many of us are well educated as historians. So, you
would be well advised to do your own reaseach before you say bad
things; in other words, follow the old adage: 'look before you leap.'
One more word of advice: when following Ricvhardson, do not leap at
all, the puddle may not hold water.
CED
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139280743
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
To W. David Samuelson:
As I feared, Richardson's lack of scholarly methodology appears to have
led you astray. The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
(from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England, and
grandfather of Geoffrey, duke of Brittany (to whom Richardson appears
to be referring). That is the reason I posted the message on that name
- Richardson could, and apparently has, misled less well informed
listers.
Mr. Samuelson, I do not know how long you have been following the
postings on SGM. If you have done so for any time at all, you would
have known that many of us are well educated as historians. So, you
would be well advised to do your own reaseach before you say bad
things; in other words, follow the old adage: 'look before you leap.'
One more word of advice: when following Ricvhardson, do not leap at
all, the puddle may not hold water.
CED
W. David Samuelsen
-
John Higgins
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
A note from DNB re Plantagenet:
"Inveterate usage has attached the surname Plantagenet to the great house
which occupied the English throne from 1154 to 1485, but the family did not
assume the surname until the middle of the fifteenth century."
BTW, this DNB snippet is quoted in a recent publication called "Plantagenet
Ancestry" by (guess who!) Douglas Richardson. The very first article in the
book is about someone whom the author refers to as 'Geoffrey Planatagenet".
This is certainly a sensible (but not historically accurate) way to refer to
him since that's what he's commonly known as now, regardless of what his
contemporaries called him.
This use of non-contemporaneous nomenclature is rather ironic, given the
position that Mr. Richardson took just a week or two ago regarding the queen
of Charles I, Henrietta Maria. I guess it's OK to refer to a 12th century
individual by a modern name, but not a 17th centeruy individual. Must be
another of those Richardson "rules of thumb"....
----- Original Message -----
From: "W David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 7:51 PM
Subject: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
"Inveterate usage has attached the surname Plantagenet to the great house
which occupied the English throne from 1154 to 1485, but the family did not
assume the surname until the middle of the fifteenth century."
BTW, this DNB snippet is quoted in a recent publication called "Plantagenet
Ancestry" by (guess who!) Douglas Richardson. The very first article in the
book is about someone whom the author refers to as 'Geoffrey Planatagenet".
This is certainly a sensible (but not historically accurate) way to refer to
him since that's what he's commonly known as now, regardless of what his
contemporaries called him.
This use of non-contemporaneous nomenclature is rather ironic, given the
position that Mr. Richardson took just a week or two ago regarding the queen
of Charles I, Henrietta Maria. I guess it's OK to refer to a 12th century
individual by a modern name, but not a 17th centeruy individual. Must be
another of those Richardson "rules of thumb"....
----- Original Message -----
From: "W David Samuelsen" <dsam@sampubco.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 7:51 PM
Subject: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1139280743
CED,
Geoffrey received his nickname for the sprig of broom (= genêt plant, in
French) he wore in his hat as a badge.
Hence his descendants are known as the Plantagenets, to separate from
the rest of the Angevins. The lines continued until last of the male
Plantagenets died out, females marrying into the Lancaster and York
houses as well as fraticides. The last Plantagenet King was Richard II
and his actions led to his abdication, died either by murder or
starvation depending on whose version it was then, and succeeded by
Henry IV Bolingbroke, first of House of Lancaster.
Suggest you do your history homework!
W. David Samuelsen
-
Chris Bennett
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
"CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1139307535.651676.47950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There is a dispute about the paternity of Henry II?? Do tell.
Chris
news:1139307535.651676.47950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
(from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England
There is a dispute about the paternity of Henry II?? Do tell.
Chris
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
To the newsgroup:
Richardson, Plantagnet Ancestry (2004), pg. 1 cites Ralph de Diceto:
Year 1150: "Dum Gaufridus Plantegenest comes Andegavorum rediret
Parisius a curia regis Francorum, concessit in fata apud Castrum Lidii,
sepultus est autem Cenomannis in ecclesia Sancti Juliani." [Stubbs,
Hist. Works of Master Ralph de Diceto, Dean of London, 1 (Rolls Ser.
68) (1876): 293].
This is the earliest instance that I've found of Geoffrey, Count of
Anjou, being styled Geoffrey Plantagenet. Early in his career, Ralph
de Diceto was Archdeacon of Middlesex, and afterwards served as Dean of
St. Paul's from 1180/1-c. 1201 [Reference: Diana Greenway, Fasti
Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 1: St. Paul's, London (1968),
pp. 4-8].
Inasmuch as Master Ralph de Diceto was a contemporary to Geoffrey's
son, King Henry II, his reference to Henry's father, Count Geoffrey, as
"Geoffrey Plantagenet" is almost contemporary to Count Geoffrey's life.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalncestry.net
"John Higgins" wrote:
Richardson, Plantagnet Ancestry (2004), pg. 1 cites Ralph de Diceto:
Year 1150: "Dum Gaufridus Plantegenest comes Andegavorum rediret
Parisius a curia regis Francorum, concessit in fata apud Castrum Lidii,
sepultus est autem Cenomannis in ecclesia Sancti Juliani." [Stubbs,
Hist. Works of Master Ralph de Diceto, Dean of London, 1 (Rolls Ser.
68) (1876): 293].
This is the earliest instance that I've found of Geoffrey, Count of
Anjou, being styled Geoffrey Plantagenet. Early in his career, Ralph
de Diceto was Archdeacon of Middlesex, and afterwards served as Dean of
St. Paul's from 1180/1-c. 1201 [Reference: Diana Greenway, Fasti
Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 1: St. Paul's, London (1968),
pp. 4-8].
Inasmuch as Master Ralph de Diceto was a contemporary to Geoffrey's
son, King Henry II, his reference to Henry's father, Count Geoffrey, as
"Geoffrey Plantagenet" is almost contemporary to Count Geoffrey's life.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalncestry.net
"John Higgins" wrote:
BTW, this DNB snippet is quoted in a recent publication called "Plantagenet
Ancestry" by (guess who!) Douglas Richardson. The very first article in the
book is about someone whom the author refers to as 'Geoffrey Planatagenet".
This is certainly a sensible (but not historically accurate) way to refer to
him since that's what he's commonly known as now, regardless of what his
contemporaries called him.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
CED wrote:
<
< The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
< (from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England, and
< grandfather of Geoffrey, duke of Brittany (to whom Richardson appears
< to be referring).
The parentage of King Henry II is well established. Perhaps CED forgot
his history lesson in high school.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
<
< The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
< (from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England, and
< grandfather of Geoffrey, duke of Brittany (to whom Richardson appears
< to be referring).
The parentage of King Henry II is well established. Perhaps CED forgot
his history lesson in high school.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
CED
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
Chris Bennett wrote:
Chris:
As far as I know there is no such dispute. The question is whether the
story about the plantagenesta twig was ever held by Geoffrey, count of
Anjou. The story is old; but is it fact?
CED
"CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1139307535.651676.47950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Geoffrey Plantagent to whom you seem to refer was
(from most accounts) the father of Henry II, king of England
There is a dispute about the paternity of Henry II?? Do tell.
Chris:
As far as I know there is no such dispute. The question is whether the
story about the plantagenesta twig was ever held by Geoffrey, count of
Anjou. The story is old; but is it fact?
CED
Chris
-
CED
Re: Geoffrey Plantagenet's name
Douglas Richardson wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
This is not a the citation given respecting the list "major barons of
Brittany issued" in 1185, by the duke of Brittany. Does Richardson
think that a different citation from a diffeent source will suffice for
his use of the name "Plantagenet" in his original citation? He claims
to be a scholar. Quoting Diceto on Geoffrey, count of Anjou, is not
the same as quoting his original source on Geoffrey, duke of Brittany
[Morice, Morice Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne,
1 (1742): 706-707 ]. They are two different people.
This ruse of substituting a different source (for one Geoffrey) for his
original source (for a different Geoffrey) is a new low in scholarship,
even for Richardson.
CED
To the newsgroup:
Richardson, Plantagnet Ancestry (2004), pg. 1 cites Ralph de Diceto:
Year 1150: "Dum Gaufridus Plantegenest comes Andegavorum rediret
Parisius a curia regis Francorum, concessit in fata apud Castrum Lidii,
sepultus est autem Cenomannis in ecclesia Sancti Juliani." [Stubbs,
Hist. Works of Master Ralph de Diceto, Dean of London, 1 (Rolls Ser.
68) (1876): 293].
To the Newsgroup:
This is not a the citation given respecting the list "major barons of
Brittany issued" in 1185, by the duke of Brittany. Does Richardson
think that a different citation from a diffeent source will suffice for
his use of the name "Plantagenet" in his original citation? He claims
to be a scholar. Quoting Diceto on Geoffrey, count of Anjou, is not
the same as quoting his original source on Geoffrey, duke of Brittany
[Morice, Morice Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne,
1 (1742): 706-707 ]. They are two different people.
This ruse of substituting a different source (for one Geoffrey) for his
original source (for a different Geoffrey) is a new low in scholarship,
even for Richardson.
CED
This is the earliest instance that I've found of Geoffrey, Count of
Anjou, being styled Geoffrey Plantagenet. Early in his career, Ralph
de Diceto was Archdeacon of Middlesex, and afterwards served as Dean of
St. Paul's from 1180/1-c. 1201 [Reference: Diana Greenway, Fasti
Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 1: St. Paul's, London (1968),
pp. 4-8].
Inasmuch as Master Ralph de Diceto was a contemporary to Geoffrey's
son, King Henry II, his reference to Henry's father, Count Geoffrey, as
"Geoffrey Plantagenet" is almost contemporary to Count Geoffrey's life.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalncestry.net
"John Higgins" wrote:
BTW, this DNB snippet is quoted in a recent publication called "Plantagenet
Ancestry" by (guess who!) Douglas Richardson. The very first article in the
book is about someone whom the author refers to as 'Geoffrey Planatagenet".
This is certainly a sensible (but not historically accurate) way to refer to
him since that's what he's commonly known as now, regardless of what his
contemporaries called him.