Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Brad Verity
Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Amy Robsart (1534-1560), the first wife of Queen Elizabeth's favorite
Robert Dudley, earl of Leicester, is best known for her death at the
manor of Cumnor Place, Oxfordshire. On 8 September 1560 she was found
dead at the bottom of the staircase with a broken neck. Dudley was
accused of having her murdered so that he would be free to marry the
queen. He was cleared of these charges in an enquiry headed by his
brother-in-law Sir Henry Sidney.
A great article 'The Robessart Tomb in Westminster Abbey' by Cecil
Humphery-Smith in 'Foundations', Volume 1 No. 3 (January 2004)
indicates that Amy is descended from Edward I:
Edward I
Joan of Acre, countess of Gloucester
Margaret de Clare (1293/4-1342) m. 2), Hugh de Audley
Margaret de Audley (1318/20-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford
Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa Beauchamp
Katherine Stafford (c.1370-1419) m. Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of
Suffolk
Elizabeth de la Pole (c.1393-1440) m. 2) Sir Thomas Kerdeston, and had
Jane Kerdeston, married Sir John Robessart, captain of Valonges in
Normandy. He died in 1447. They had an elder son:
Sir Thierry Robessart, born 1443, a ward of Alice Chaucer, duchess of
Suffolk; knighted at Tewkesbury 1471, died 9 December 1496; buried
Kerdeston church; married Elizabeth Cromwell, who died 20 November
1535; buried Kerdeston church. They had a younger son:
Sir John Robsart, born about 1494, sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk 1547,
died 8 June 1554; married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Scott, of
Camberwell, Surrey. Their only child was:
Amy Robsart, born 1534, married 4 June 1549, Robert Dudley.
Cheers, -------Brad
Robert Dudley, earl of Leicester, is best known for her death at the
manor of Cumnor Place, Oxfordshire. On 8 September 1560 she was found
dead at the bottom of the staircase with a broken neck. Dudley was
accused of having her murdered so that he would be free to marry the
queen. He was cleared of these charges in an enquiry headed by his
brother-in-law Sir Henry Sidney.
A great article 'The Robessart Tomb in Westminster Abbey' by Cecil
Humphery-Smith in 'Foundations', Volume 1 No. 3 (January 2004)
indicates that Amy is descended from Edward I:
Edward I
Joan of Acre, countess of Gloucester
Margaret de Clare (1293/4-1342) m. 2), Hugh de Audley
Margaret de Audley (1318/20-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford
Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa Beauchamp
Katherine Stafford (c.1370-1419) m. Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of
Suffolk
Elizabeth de la Pole (c.1393-1440) m. 2) Sir Thomas Kerdeston, and had
Jane Kerdeston, married Sir John Robessart, captain of Valonges in
Normandy. He died in 1447. They had an elder son:
Sir Thierry Robessart, born 1443, a ward of Alice Chaucer, duchess of
Suffolk; knighted at Tewkesbury 1471, died 9 December 1496; buried
Kerdeston church; married Elizabeth Cromwell, who died 20 November
1535; buried Kerdeston church. They had a younger son:
Sir John Robsart, born about 1494, sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk 1547,
died 8 June 1554; married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Scott, of
Camberwell, Surrey. Their only child was:
Amy Robsart, born 1534, married 4 June 1549, Robert Dudley.
Cheers, -------Brad
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
The article on the Kerdeston-de la Pole connection in The Genealogist,
TG 3 (1982): 6 (1985): 160-165, indicates that Sir Thomas Kerdeston
married (1st) Elizabeth de la Pole, by whom he had one son, William,
and one daughter, Margaret (wife of John de Foix, Earl of Kendal);
(2nd) before 10 Jan. 1443/4 Philippe Trussell, daughter of John
Trussell, Knt., by whom he had one daughter, Elizabeth (wife of Terry
Robsart, Knt.).
If this information is correct, then Amy Robsart loses the descent you
have alleged from King Edward I, as she would descend from the Trussell
marriage, not the de la Pole marriage. This would also require a
correction to the Foundations article you have cited.
Does anyone know which version is correct, TG or Foundations? Also,
does anyone have any particulars on the Hastings connection of Sir
Thomas Kerdeston's mother, Lady Margaret Kerdeston, which I highlighted
in a recent post?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Brad Verity wrote:
TG 3 (1982): 6 (1985): 160-165, indicates that Sir Thomas Kerdeston
married (1st) Elizabeth de la Pole, by whom he had one son, William,
and one daughter, Margaret (wife of John de Foix, Earl of Kendal);
(2nd) before 10 Jan. 1443/4 Philippe Trussell, daughter of John
Trussell, Knt., by whom he had one daughter, Elizabeth (wife of Terry
Robsart, Knt.).
If this information is correct, then Amy Robsart loses the descent you
have alleged from King Edward I, as she would descend from the Trussell
marriage, not the de la Pole marriage. This would also require a
correction to the Foundations article you have cited.
Does anyone know which version is correct, TG or Foundations? Also,
does anyone have any particulars on the Hastings connection of Sir
Thomas Kerdeston's mother, Lady Margaret Kerdeston, which I highlighted
in a recent post?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Brad Verity wrote:
Amy Robsart (1534-1560), the first wife of Queen Elizabeth's favorite
Robert Dudley, earl of Leicester, is best known for her death at the
manor of Cumnor Place, Oxfordshire. On 8 September 1560 she was found
dead at the bottom of the staircase with a broken neck. Dudley was
accused of having her murdered so that he would be free to marry the
queen. He was cleared of these charges in an enquiry headed by his
brother-in-law Sir Henry Sidney.
A great article 'The Robessart Tomb in Westminster Abbey' by Cecil
Humphery-Smith in 'Foundations', Volume 1 No. 3 (January 2004)
indicates that Amy is descended from Edward I:
Edward I
Joan of Acre, countess of Gloucester
Margaret de Clare (1293/4-1342) m. 2), Hugh de Audley
Margaret de Audley (1318/20-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford
Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa Beauchamp
Katherine Stafford (c.1370-1419) m. Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of
Suffolk
Elizabeth de la Pole (c.1393-1440) m. 2) Sir Thomas Kerdeston, and had
Jane Kerdeston, married Sir John Robessart, captain of Valonges in
Normandy. He died in 1447. They had an elder son:
Sir Thierry Robessart, born 1443, a ward of Alice Chaucer, duchess of
Suffolk; knighted at Tewkesbury 1471, died 9 December 1496; buried
Kerdeston church; married Elizabeth Cromwell, who died 20 November
1535; buried Kerdeston church. They had a younger son:
Sir John Robsart, born about 1494, sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk 1547,
died 8 June 1554; married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John Scott, of
Camberwell, Surrey. Their only child was:
Amy Robsart, born 1534, married 4 June 1549, Robert Dudley.
Cheers, -------Brad
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
In article <1139082192.357555.89020@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
I did not look at this point in particular, but there were a few
statements and relationships in the _Foundations_ Robessart article
which were erroneous, through (I think) simple oversight, since the
point of the article was not those relationships per se.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
The article on the Kerdeston-de la Pole connection in The Genealogist,
TG 3 (1982): 6 (1985): 160-165, indicates that Sir Thomas Kerdeston
married (1st) Elizabeth de la Pole, by whom he had one son, William,
and one daughter, Margaret (wife of John de Foix, Earl of Kendal);
(2nd) before 10 Jan. 1443/4 Philippe Trussell, daughter of John
Trussell, Knt., by whom he had one daughter, Elizabeth (wife of Terry
Robsart, Knt.).
If this information is correct, then Amy Robsart loses the descent you
have alleged from King Edward I, as she would descend from the Trussell
marriage, not the de la Pole marriage. This would also require a
correction to the Foundations article you have cited.
Does anyone know which version is correct, TG or Foundations?
I did not look at this point in particular, but there were a few
statements and relationships in the _Foundations_ Robessart article
which were erroneous, through (I think) simple oversight, since the
point of the article was not those relationships per se.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Nat (et al.):
I'd, for one, be interested in knowing what the erroneous statements
were.
I've been puzzled by (and maybe even I emailed you, Nat, on) the issue
of the arms of Swynford appearing on the Robessart tomb at (I think)
Westminster: the family(Robessart) goes back to Hainault in the Payne
Roet era, and I've been wondering if there was a family intermarriage
at some point. That one of the descendants was a ward of Alice Chaucer,
a Roet descendant, makes me more curious, although I recognize that,
grasping as she was, Alice would've acquired a wardship independent of
any ancient family connections!
What exactly is the story of the house of Robessart?
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
I'd, for one, be interested in knowing what the erroneous statements
were.
I've been puzzled by (and maybe even I emailed you, Nat, on) the issue
of the arms of Swynford appearing on the Robessart tomb at (I think)
Westminster: the family(Robessart) goes back to Hainault in the Payne
Roet era, and I've been wondering if there was a family intermarriage
at some point. That one of the descendants was a ward of Alice Chaucer,
a Roet descendant, makes me more curious, although I recognize that,
grasping as she was, Alice would've acquired a wardship independent of
any ancient family connections!
What exactly is the story of the house of Robessart?
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
-
Brad Verity
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Humphery-Smith, in his 'Foundations' article, has a Sir John Robessart,
born about 1372, marrying Ida de Sanchez de Jorce-Gommequiez, and dying
on 24 December 1450 (buried Greyfriars church, London), and having
three sons: Sir John, William (dsp 12 Oct. 1484) and Sir Thierry (d.
1497), lord of Kerdeston, who married Catherine Kerdeston.
Sir John Robessart, eldest son of Sir John above and Ida, then married
Jane Kerdeston (sister of the Catherine Kerdeston who married his
younger brother Sir Thierry above), became captain of Valonges in
Normandy, and died in 1447, leaving two sons, Sir Thierry (born 1443,
married Elizabeth Cromwell, and died 9 December 1496) and William
Robessart, of Minster, Kent (born 1444/7, married Cecilia, died August
1499).
The dates Humphery-Smith gave for the deaths of the two uncle-nephew
Sir Thierry Robessarts seem suspiciously close (1497 and December 1496,
respectively). In the IPMs of Sir Terry Robissart, taken in Norfolk
and Suffolk in early November 1497, Sir Terry was returned as having
died on 9 December 1496, his son and heir William was age 10 and more,
and he held the two Norfolk manors of Newton and Sydisterne [aka
Kerdeston], and used to hold the two Suffolk manors of Bulcamp and
Henham.
Since Sir Terry was holding Kerdeston at his 1496 death, the uncle Sir
Thierry Robessart, described by Humphery-Smith as lord of Siderston and
Kerdeston and married to Catherine Kerdeston, could not have died in
1497 holding Kerdeston as Humphery-Smith claims. Either the uncle Sir
Thierry died before 1496, or never existed and there was only one Sir
Thierry Robessart of Kerdeston.
Sir Thierry Robessart died in 1496, leaving an elder son and heir
William, born about 1486. Humphery-Smith also gives him a younger son
John Robessart, whom he estimates to have been born about 1494, and a
daughter Lucy Robessart, who married Edward Walpole (b. 1483, d. 2
January 1559). If Sir Thierry was married to Elizabeth, daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston by his second wife Philippa Trussell, the latest
year she could be born is 1447, as her father Sir Thomas Kerdeston died
in July 1446. That would make her about age 40 when William Robessart,
Sir Thierry's elder son, was born in 1486. Far too late.
Humphery-Smith's assigning Sir Thierry a wife Elizabeth Cromwell who
died in November 1535 seems to be correct.
It's possible Sir Thierry married as a first wife a daughter of Sir
Thomas Kerdeston and Philippa Trussell, and that she died without issue
by the early 1480s.
But his Suffolk IPM is interesting. It goes into a lengthy explanation
as to why he held the manors of Bulcamp and Henham until Edmund de la
Pole, earl of Suffolk, took possession of them a few days before Sir
Thierry's death in December 1496:
"William, late marquess and earl of Suffolk, and Alice his wife, were
seised of the under-mentioned manors ... and afterwards the marquess
died and she survived him, and for as much as the said Terry, named in
the writ, was of the consanguinity (sic) of the said marquess and of
the affinity (sic) of herself, she permitted him to hold and occupy the
said manors and to take the issues and profits thereof during her life,
by virtue of which the said Terry took the same all her life and by her
permission; and afterwards she died, after whose death the said Terry
by permission of John, late duke of Suffolk, son and heir of the said
Alice, for the consideration aforesaid, took the issues and profits
thereof all the life of the said late duke..."
I don't know if the two "(sic)"s were put in by the editors of the CIPM
volume, or were in the original IPM. Probably the editors - what
evidence they had that Sir Thierry was not related to William, 1st Duke
of Suffolk, I don't know. But if the editors were wrong, and the
information originally returned in the IPM was correct (and I don't
know why Duchess Alice and her son and her grandson would allow Sir
Thierry to hold two manors for close to 40 years unless he was a
relative), if fits perfectly with Humphery-Smith's genealogy for Sir
Thierry: that he was the son of Sir John Robessart (d. 1447) and his
wife Jane Kerdeston, a daughter of Sir Thomas Kerdeston (d. 1446) and
Elizabeth de la Pole (d. 1440), and thus a niece of William de la Pole,
duke of Suffolk and his wife Alice Chaucer.
Of course if Humphery-Smith's parentage for Sir Thierry is correct, he
could not have married the daughter of his grandfather's second
marriage.
I don't have easy access to the periodical 'The Genealogist'. Can
anybody summarize the evidence on the Kerdeston/Robessart marriage
provided in the two articles from 1982 and 1985?
Thanks and Cheers,
---------------Brad
The article on the Kerdeston-de la Pole connection in The Genealogist,
TG 3 (1982): 6 (1985): 160-165, indicates that Sir Thomas Kerdeston
married (1st) Elizabeth de la Pole, by whom he had one son, William,
and one daughter, Margaret (wife of John de Foix, Earl of Kendal);
(2nd) before 10 Jan. 1443/4 Philippe Trussell, daughter of John
Trussell, Knt., by whom he had one daughter, Elizabeth (wife of Terry
Robsart, Knt.).
Humphery-Smith, in his 'Foundations' article, has a Sir John Robessart,
born about 1372, marrying Ida de Sanchez de Jorce-Gommequiez, and dying
on 24 December 1450 (buried Greyfriars church, London), and having
three sons: Sir John, William (dsp 12 Oct. 1484) and Sir Thierry (d.
1497), lord of Kerdeston, who married Catherine Kerdeston.
Sir John Robessart, eldest son of Sir John above and Ida, then married
Jane Kerdeston (sister of the Catherine Kerdeston who married his
younger brother Sir Thierry above), became captain of Valonges in
Normandy, and died in 1447, leaving two sons, Sir Thierry (born 1443,
married Elizabeth Cromwell, and died 9 December 1496) and William
Robessart, of Minster, Kent (born 1444/7, married Cecilia, died August
1499).
The dates Humphery-Smith gave for the deaths of the two uncle-nephew
Sir Thierry Robessarts seem suspiciously close (1497 and December 1496,
respectively). In the IPMs of Sir Terry Robissart, taken in Norfolk
and Suffolk in early November 1497, Sir Terry was returned as having
died on 9 December 1496, his son and heir William was age 10 and more,
and he held the two Norfolk manors of Newton and Sydisterne [aka
Kerdeston], and used to hold the two Suffolk manors of Bulcamp and
Henham.
Since Sir Terry was holding Kerdeston at his 1496 death, the uncle Sir
Thierry Robessart, described by Humphery-Smith as lord of Siderston and
Kerdeston and married to Catherine Kerdeston, could not have died in
1497 holding Kerdeston as Humphery-Smith claims. Either the uncle Sir
Thierry died before 1496, or never existed and there was only one Sir
Thierry Robessart of Kerdeston.
Sir Thierry Robessart died in 1496, leaving an elder son and heir
William, born about 1486. Humphery-Smith also gives him a younger son
John Robessart, whom he estimates to have been born about 1494, and a
daughter Lucy Robessart, who married Edward Walpole (b. 1483, d. 2
January 1559). If Sir Thierry was married to Elizabeth, daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston by his second wife Philippa Trussell, the latest
year she could be born is 1447, as her father Sir Thomas Kerdeston died
in July 1446. That would make her about age 40 when William Robessart,
Sir Thierry's elder son, was born in 1486. Far too late.
Humphery-Smith's assigning Sir Thierry a wife Elizabeth Cromwell who
died in November 1535 seems to be correct.
It's possible Sir Thierry married as a first wife a daughter of Sir
Thomas Kerdeston and Philippa Trussell, and that she died without issue
by the early 1480s.
But his Suffolk IPM is interesting. It goes into a lengthy explanation
as to why he held the manors of Bulcamp and Henham until Edmund de la
Pole, earl of Suffolk, took possession of them a few days before Sir
Thierry's death in December 1496:
"William, late marquess and earl of Suffolk, and Alice his wife, were
seised of the under-mentioned manors ... and afterwards the marquess
died and she survived him, and for as much as the said Terry, named in
the writ, was of the consanguinity (sic) of the said marquess and of
the affinity (sic) of herself, she permitted him to hold and occupy the
said manors and to take the issues and profits thereof during her life,
by virtue of which the said Terry took the same all her life and by her
permission; and afterwards she died, after whose death the said Terry
by permission of John, late duke of Suffolk, son and heir of the said
Alice, for the consideration aforesaid, took the issues and profits
thereof all the life of the said late duke..."
I don't know if the two "(sic)"s were put in by the editors of the CIPM
volume, or were in the original IPM. Probably the editors - what
evidence they had that Sir Thierry was not related to William, 1st Duke
of Suffolk, I don't know. But if the editors were wrong, and the
information originally returned in the IPM was correct (and I don't
know why Duchess Alice and her son and her grandson would allow Sir
Thierry to hold two manors for close to 40 years unless he was a
relative), if fits perfectly with Humphery-Smith's genealogy for Sir
Thierry: that he was the son of Sir John Robessart (d. 1447) and his
wife Jane Kerdeston, a daughter of Sir Thomas Kerdeston (d. 1446) and
Elizabeth de la Pole (d. 1440), and thus a niece of William de la Pole,
duke of Suffolk and his wife Alice Chaucer.
Of course if Humphery-Smith's parentage for Sir Thierry is correct, he
could not have married the daughter of his grandfather's second
marriage.
I don't have easy access to the periodical 'The Genealogist'. Can
anybody summarize the evidence on the Kerdeston/Robessart marriage
provided in the two articles from 1982 and 1985?
Thanks and Cheers,
---------------Brad
-
John Higgins
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
The reference to the Kerdeston/Robsart marriages, such as it is, in The
Genealogist is in vol. 6 p. 165 note 107 which says "Sir Thomas Kerdeston m.
(2), prior to 10 Jan 1443/4, Philippa, [Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry VI,
1441-47 (London, 1937), p. 270], in his will identified as daughter of Sir
John Trussell, and by her had a daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir Terry
Robsart [CP 7:198]." [END of QUOTE]
The CP reference leads to a chart pedigree of the Kerdeston family and the
descent of Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk from the Kerdeston family. The
Robsart marriage is mentioned in the chart and also in a footnote to the
lengthy text accompanying it, which describes the legal transactions
regarding various manors disputed between the Kerdeston and Chaucer families
(and thus also the de la Pole family). Note that CP calls the wife of Sir
Terry Robsart (whichever one he was) Elizabeth, not Catherine as in the
Humphery-Smith articles, and CP doesn't appear to give any evidence for her
parentage (specifically her maternity).
It should be noted that the TG article (v. 6) may not be comprehensive in
listing all the children of Sir Thomas Kerdeston. Both Humphery-Smith
articles (in 1964 and 2004) give him four daughters, not two, and assign
them all to the first wife Elizabeth de la Pole. The four are:
1) Jane, m. Sir John Robessart
2) Catherine, m. Sir Thierry Robessart [brother of the above]
3) Margaret, m. Jean de Foix
4) Elizabeth, m. John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley
The validity of the proposed descent from Edward I to Amy Robsart probably
depends on the resolution of the point raised by Brad: were there one or
two Terry/Theirry Robsarts, and who were their wives? If there were two
Terrys (and if Humphery-Smith has their marriages right), the descent
depends on the Kerdeston marriage to Sir John Robessart, not the one to Sir
Thierry [or Terry] Robessart - regardless of who was the mother of the wife
of the latter.
FWIW, there are also lengthy write-ups of the Kerdeston/Chaucer dispute in
vol. 2 of Copinger's Manors of Suffolk (sub Bulchamp and Henham). Both
articles here mention Sir Terry Robsart's wife as Elizabeth (not Catherine),
dau. of Sir Thomas Kerdeston without specifiying her mother. There also
appears to be material on the Kerdeston family in Blomefield's Norfolk,
which I don't have access to.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Genealogist is in vol. 6 p. 165 note 107 which says "Sir Thomas Kerdeston m.
(2), prior to 10 Jan 1443/4, Philippa, [Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry VI,
1441-47 (London, 1937), p. 270], in his will identified as daughter of Sir
John Trussell, and by her had a daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir Terry
Robsart [CP 7:198]." [END of QUOTE]
The CP reference leads to a chart pedigree of the Kerdeston family and the
descent of Alice Chaucer, Duchess of Suffolk from the Kerdeston family. The
Robsart marriage is mentioned in the chart and also in a footnote to the
lengthy text accompanying it, which describes the legal transactions
regarding various manors disputed between the Kerdeston and Chaucer families
(and thus also the de la Pole family). Note that CP calls the wife of Sir
Terry Robsart (whichever one he was) Elizabeth, not Catherine as in the
Humphery-Smith articles, and CP doesn't appear to give any evidence for her
parentage (specifically her maternity).
It should be noted that the TG article (v. 6) may not be comprehensive in
listing all the children of Sir Thomas Kerdeston. Both Humphery-Smith
articles (in 1964 and 2004) give him four daughters, not two, and assign
them all to the first wife Elizabeth de la Pole. The four are:
1) Jane, m. Sir John Robessart
2) Catherine, m. Sir Thierry Robessart [brother of the above]
3) Margaret, m. Jean de Foix
4) Elizabeth, m. John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley
The validity of the proposed descent from Edward I to Amy Robsart probably
depends on the resolution of the point raised by Brad: were there one or
two Terry/Theirry Robsarts, and who were their wives? If there were two
Terrys (and if Humphery-Smith has their marriages right), the descent
depends on the Kerdeston marriage to Sir John Robessart, not the one to Sir
Thierry [or Terry] Robessart - regardless of who was the mother of the wife
of the latter.
FWIW, there are also lengthy write-ups of the Kerdeston/Chaucer dispute in
vol. 2 of Copinger's Manors of Suffolk (sub Bulchamp and Henham). Both
articles here mention Sir Terry Robsart's wife as Elizabeth (not Catherine),
dau. of Sir Thomas Kerdeston without specifiying her mother. There also
appears to be material on the Kerdeston family in Blomefield's Norfolk,
which I don't have access to.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Douglas Richardson wrote:
The article on the Kerdeston-de la Pole connection in The Genealogist,
TG 3 (1982): 6 (1985): 160-165, indicates that Sir Thomas Kerdeston
married (1st) Elizabeth de la Pole, by whom he had one son, William,
and one daughter, Margaret (wife of John de Foix, Earl of Kendal);
(2nd) before 10 Jan. 1443/4 Philippe Trussell, daughter of John
Trussell, Knt., by whom he had one daughter, Elizabeth (wife of Terry
Robsart, Knt.).
Humphery-Smith, in his 'Foundations' article, has a Sir John Robessart,
born about 1372, marrying Ida de Sanchez de Jorce-Gommequiez, and dying
on 24 December 1450 (buried Greyfriars church, London), and having
three sons: Sir John, William (dsp 12 Oct. 1484) and Sir Thierry (d.
1497), lord of Kerdeston, who married Catherine Kerdeston.
Sir John Robessart, eldest son of Sir John above and Ida, then married
Jane Kerdeston (sister of the Catherine Kerdeston who married his
younger brother Sir Thierry above), became captain of Valonges in
Normandy, and died in 1447, leaving two sons, Sir Thierry (born 1443,
married Elizabeth Cromwell, and died 9 December 1496) and William
Robessart, of Minster, Kent (born 1444/7, married Cecilia, died August
1499).
The dates Humphery-Smith gave for the deaths of the two uncle-nephew
Sir Thierry Robessarts seem suspiciously close (1497 and December 1496,
respectively). In the IPMs of Sir Terry Robissart, taken in Norfolk
and Suffolk in early November 1497, Sir Terry was returned as having
died on 9 December 1496, his son and heir William was age 10 and more,
and he held the two Norfolk manors of Newton and Sydisterne [aka
Kerdeston], and used to hold the two Suffolk manors of Bulcamp and
Henham.
Since Sir Terry was holding Kerdeston at his 1496 death, the uncle Sir
Thierry Robessart, described by Humphery-Smith as lord of Siderston and
Kerdeston and married to Catherine Kerdeston, could not have died in
1497 holding Kerdeston as Humphery-Smith claims. Either the uncle Sir
Thierry died before 1496, or never existed and there was only one Sir
Thierry Robessart of Kerdeston.
Sir Thierry Robessart died in 1496, leaving an elder son and heir
William, born about 1486. Humphery-Smith also gives him a younger son
John Robessart, whom he estimates to have been born about 1494, and a
daughter Lucy Robessart, who married Edward Walpole (b. 1483, d. 2
January 1559). If Sir Thierry was married to Elizabeth, daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston by his second wife Philippa Trussell, the latest
year she could be born is 1447, as her father Sir Thomas Kerdeston died
in July 1446. That would make her about age 40 when William Robessart,
Sir Thierry's elder son, was born in 1486. Far too late.
Humphery-Smith's assigning Sir Thierry a wife Elizabeth Cromwell who
died in November 1535 seems to be correct.
It's possible Sir Thierry married as a first wife a daughter of Sir
Thomas Kerdeston and Philippa Trussell, and that she died without issue
by the early 1480s.
But his Suffolk IPM is interesting. It goes into a lengthy explanation
as to why he held the manors of Bulcamp and Henham until Edmund de la
Pole, earl of Suffolk, took possession of them a few days before Sir
Thierry's death in December 1496:
"William, late marquess and earl of Suffolk, and Alice his wife, were
seised of the under-mentioned manors ... and afterwards the marquess
died and she survived him, and for as much as the said Terry, named in
the writ, was of the consanguinity (sic) of the said marquess and of
the affinity (sic) of herself, she permitted him to hold and occupy the
said manors and to take the issues and profits thereof during her life,
by virtue of which the said Terry took the same all her life and by her
permission; and afterwards she died, after whose death the said Terry
by permission of John, late duke of Suffolk, son and heir of the said
Alice, for the consideration aforesaid, took the issues and profits
thereof all the life of the said late duke..."
I don't know if the two "(sic)"s were put in by the editors of the CIPM
volume, or were in the original IPM. Probably the editors - what
evidence they had that Sir Thierry was not related to William, 1st Duke
of Suffolk, I don't know. But if the editors were wrong, and the
information originally returned in the IPM was correct (and I don't
know why Duchess Alice and her son and her grandson would allow Sir
Thierry to hold two manors for close to 40 years unless he was a
relative), if fits perfectly with Humphery-Smith's genealogy for Sir
Thierry: that he was the son of Sir John Robessart (d. 1447) and his
wife Jane Kerdeston, a daughter of Sir Thomas Kerdeston (d. 1446) and
Elizabeth de la Pole (d. 1440), and thus a niece of William de la Pole,
duke of Suffolk and his wife Alice Chaucer.
Of course if Humphery-Smith's parentage for Sir Thierry is correct, he
could not have married the daughter of his grandfather's second
marriage.
I don't have easy access to the periodical 'The Genealogist'. Can
anybody summarize the evidence on the Kerdeston/Robessart marriage
provided in the two articles from 1982 and 1985?
Thanks and Cheers,
---------------Brad
-
Brad Verity
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
"John Higgins" wrote:
[snip]
Dear John,
Thanks for taking the time to look into the Kerdeston references in The
Genealogist and CP. I have access to Blomefield's Norfolk at the UCLA
Library and will try and track down his references to the Kerdestons.
I wonder if there is anything to be found in Smyth's Lives of the
Berkeleys regarding the marriage of Elizabeth Kerdeston (daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston and Elizabeth de la Pole, per Humphery-Smith) and
"John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley"? If so, it would confirm that the
Kerdestons had more than just the one daughter Margaret, countess of
Kendal.
Other than that, the will of Sir Thomas Kerdeston might provide some
clues - I'll see if I can track that down.
Does anyone know Humphery-Smith, and can ask about his sources for the
Kerdeston and Robessart genealogies?
Thanks and Cheers,
----Brad
The reference to the Kerdeston/Robsart marriages, such as it is, in The
Genealogist is in vol. 6 p. 165 note 107 which says "Sir Thomas Kerdeston m.
(2), prior to 10 Jan 1443/4, Philippa, [Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry VI,
1441-47 (London, 1937), p. 270], in his will identified as daughter of Sir
John Trussell, and by her had a daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir Terry
Robsart [CP 7:198]." [END of QUOTE]
[snip]
Dear John,
Thanks for taking the time to look into the Kerdeston references in The
Genealogist and CP. I have access to Blomefield's Norfolk at the UCLA
Library and will try and track down his references to the Kerdestons.
I wonder if there is anything to be found in Smyth's Lives of the
Berkeleys regarding the marriage of Elizabeth Kerdeston (daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston and Elizabeth de la Pole, per Humphery-Smith) and
"John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley"? If so, it would confirm that the
Kerdestons had more than just the one daughter Margaret, countess of
Kendal.
Other than that, the will of Sir Thomas Kerdeston might provide some
clues - I'll see if I can track that down.
Does anyone know Humphery-Smith, and can ask about his sources for the
Kerdeston and Robessart genealogies?
Thanks and Cheers,
----Brad
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
In message of 22 Feb, "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com> wrote:
Not in the copies here.
For future reference, I think I have put all in the extended Berkeley
family in Smith's "Lives" on my web-site; there were 2006 of them at
the last count. It is not only in the main genealogy but there is an
abstract of them at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/berkeley/index.html
This includes a GEDCOM.
PS I like the "royaldescent@" bit. Not taking the plonk out of a
certain nameless other person, are you? What other such
pretentious e-addresses can we think of? "royalcousin",
"royalinheritance" or even "royalbyblow"?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
"John Higgins" wrote:
The reference to the Kerdeston/Robsart marriages, such as it is, in
The Genealogist is in vol. 6 p. 165 note 107 which says "Sir Thomas
Kerdeston m. (2), prior to 10 Jan 1443/4, Philippa, [Calendar of
Close Rolls, Henry VI, 1441-47 (London, 1937), p. 270], in his will
identified as daughter of Sir John Trussell, and by her had a
daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir Terry Robsart [CP 7:198]." [END of
QUOTE]
[snip]
Dear John,
Thanks for taking the time to look into the Kerdeston references in
The Genealogist and CP. I have access to Blomefield's Norfolk at the
UCLA Library and will try and track down his references to the
Kerdestons.
I wonder if there is anything to be found in Smyth's Lives of the
Berkeleys regarding the marriage of Elizabeth Kerdeston (daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston and Elizabeth de la Pole, per Humphery-Smith) and
"John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley"?
Not in the copies here.
For future reference, I think I have put all in the extended Berkeley
family in Smith's "Lives" on my web-site; there were 2006 of them at
the last count. It is not only in the main genealogy but there is an
abstract of them at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/berkeley/index.html
This includes a GEDCOM.
If so, it would confirm that the Kerdestons had more than just the one
daughter Margaret, countess of Kendal.
Other than that, the will of Sir Thomas Kerdeston might provide some
clues - I'll see if I can track that down.
Does anyone know Humphery-Smith, and can ask about his sources for the
Kerdeston and Robessart genealogies?
Thanks and Cheers,
----Brad
PS I like the "royaldescent@" bit. Not taking the plonk out of a
certain nameless other person, are you? What other such
pretentious e-addresses can we think of? "royalcousin",
"royalinheritance" or even "royalbyblow"?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
John Higgins
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
I think I saw some place that "John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley" was of the
Beverstone Berkeleys, but I can't now find that reference, and I can't place
this particular pair of father and son in pedigrees of that family.
With respect to the sources used by Humphery-Smith for the Robessart/Robsart
pedigree, his 2004 Foundations article essentially refers back to his 1964
article in Family History. The latter has the following information:
"The family is described with some genealogical notes in the following works
from which much of the tables have been compiled: MS 13070-13072,
Bibliotheque Royale, Brussels; Receuil genealogique concernant les Comtes de
Flandres et de Hainault, 75; Annuaire de La Noblesse de Belgique, (1860)
215; Ch[arles] Poplimont, La Belgique Heraldique IX (1867) 209-223; le
Carpentier's Histoire de Cambrai, II, 950; De Saint-Genois, Monuments II,
337; François Vinchant, Monuments (1648). Kervyn de Lettenhove, Oeuvres de
Froissart xxiii, 25-29, 59, 66, 145 & 157; Froissart's Chronicles (Berner's
bk 1 ch. 47), the Annales de la Province et Comte d'Haynau, and Blomefield's
Norfolk (edn. Parkin 1807) VII, 181 add to the general history of this
family of Hainault freebooters in the service of England." [END OF QUOTE]
A couple of these items appear to be available through the FHL but
unfortunately not the particular volume of Blomefield, which is probably the
key reference for the English family. Oh, well....
There is also a separate reference in the 1964 article to an article by J.
Bain in The Genealogist [new series] Vi:206 which may have some information.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
Beverstone Berkeleys, but I can't now find that reference, and I can't place
this particular pair of father and son in pedigrees of that family.
With respect to the sources used by Humphery-Smith for the Robessart/Robsart
pedigree, his 2004 Foundations article essentially refers back to his 1964
article in Family History. The latter has the following information:
"The family is described with some genealogical notes in the following works
from which much of the tables have been compiled: MS 13070-13072,
Bibliotheque Royale, Brussels; Receuil genealogique concernant les Comtes de
Flandres et de Hainault, 75; Annuaire de La Noblesse de Belgique, (1860)
215; Ch[arles] Poplimont, La Belgique Heraldique IX (1867) 209-223; le
Carpentier's Histoire de Cambrai, II, 950; De Saint-Genois, Monuments II,
337; François Vinchant, Monuments (1648). Kervyn de Lettenhove, Oeuvres de
Froissart xxiii, 25-29, 59, 66, 145 & 157; Froissart's Chronicles (Berner's
bk 1 ch. 47), the Annales de la Province et Comte d'Haynau, and Blomefield's
Norfolk (edn. Parkin 1807) VII, 181 add to the general history of this
family of Hainault freebooters in the service of England." [END OF QUOTE]
A couple of these items appear to be available through the FHL but
unfortunately not the particular volume of Blomefield, which is probably the
key reference for the English family. Oh, well....
There is also a separate reference in the 1964 article to an article by J.
Bain in The Genealogist [new series] Vi:206 which may have some information.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
"John Higgins" wrote:
The reference to the Kerdeston/Robsart marriages, such as it is, in The
Genealogist is in vol. 6 p. 165 note 107 which says "Sir Thomas
Kerdeston m.
(2), prior to 10 Jan 1443/4, Philippa, [Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry
VI,
1441-47 (London, 1937), p. 270], in his will identified as daughter of
Sir
John Trussell, and by her had a daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir Terry
Robsart [CP 7:198]." [END of QUOTE]
[snip]
Dear John,
Thanks for taking the time to look into the Kerdeston references in The
Genealogist and CP. I have access to Blomefield's Norfolk at the UCLA
Library and will try and track down his references to the Kerdestons.
I wonder if there is anything to be found in Smyth's Lives of the
Berkeleys regarding the marriage of Elizabeth Kerdeston (daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston and Elizabeth de la Pole, per Humphery-Smith) and
"John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley"? If so, it would confirm that the
Kerdestons had more than just the one daughter Margaret, countess of
Kendal.
Other than that, the will of Sir Thomas Kerdeston might provide some
clues - I'll see if I can track that down.
Does anyone know Humphery-Smith, and can ask about his sources for the
Kerdeston and Robessart genealogies?
Thanks and Cheers,
----Brad
-
John Higgins
Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
C. R. Humphery, both his 1964 and 2004 articles on the Robessart tomb, says
that Sir Thomas de Kerdeston and his 1st wife Elizabeth de la Pole had a
youngest daughter Elizabeth who mar. "John. son of Sir Maurice Berkeley". I
mentioned in my note below that I thought I had seen a reference that John
was of the Beverstone Berkeleys, but I couldn't place the specific
reference. I've now found the basis for this reference, and it was clearly
erroneous.
Humphery-Smith, in his 1964 article, lists Elizabeth in a pedigree of the
Kerdestons and makes a reference for her husband to another pedigree in the
same article covering the Sutton/Dudley family (ancestors of Robert Dudley,
Earl of Leicester, husband of Amy Robsart). He implies (but doesn't exactly
state) that John Berkeley who mar. Elizabeth Kerdeston is the same as the
Sir John Berkeley of Beverstone who was the father-in-law of Sir John Sutton
[or Dudley] KG, 1st Baron Dudley (d. 1487) [for whom see CP 4:479-80). This
is is clearly incorrect, not only for chronological reasons, but because the
two wives of this Sir John Berkeley appear to be well-documented, and
neither is Elizabeth Kerdeston. In addition, this Sir John is father, not
son, of Sir Maurice.
Tim Powys-Lybbe has separately noted that a Kerdeston marriage cannot be
found in Smyth's Lives of the Berkeleys. It's too bad we don't have better
sources for Humphery-Smith's pedigrees of Kerdeston and Robessart, which may
not be entirely accurate, it seems. In lieu of that, it would be
interesting to know what support there is for the assumption (most recently
in RPA and MCA) that Sir Thomas de Kerdeston had any children by his 2nd
wife Philippa Trussell. [Although CP makes this last assertion, it doesn't
support it.]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
that Sir Thomas de Kerdeston and his 1st wife Elizabeth de la Pole had a
youngest daughter Elizabeth who mar. "John. son of Sir Maurice Berkeley". I
mentioned in my note below that I thought I had seen a reference that John
was of the Beverstone Berkeleys, but I couldn't place the specific
reference. I've now found the basis for this reference, and it was clearly
erroneous.
Humphery-Smith, in his 1964 article, lists Elizabeth in a pedigree of the
Kerdestons and makes a reference for her husband to another pedigree in the
same article covering the Sutton/Dudley family (ancestors of Robert Dudley,
Earl of Leicester, husband of Amy Robsart). He implies (but doesn't exactly
state) that John Berkeley who mar. Elizabeth Kerdeston is the same as the
Sir John Berkeley of Beverstone who was the father-in-law of Sir John Sutton
[or Dudley] KG, 1st Baron Dudley (d. 1487) [for whom see CP 4:479-80). This
is is clearly incorrect, not only for chronological reasons, but because the
two wives of this Sir John Berkeley appear to be well-documented, and
neither is Elizabeth Kerdeston. In addition, this Sir John is father, not
son, of Sir Maurice.
Tim Powys-Lybbe has separately noted that a Kerdeston marriage cannot be
found in Smyth's Lives of the Berkeleys. It's too bad we don't have better
sources for Humphery-Smith's pedigrees of Kerdeston and Robessart, which may
not be entirely accurate, it seems. In lieu of that, it would be
interesting to know what support there is for the assumption (most recently
in RPA and MCA) that Sir Thomas de Kerdeston had any children by his 2nd
wife Philippa Trussell. [Although CP makes this last assertion, it doesn't
support it.]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
I think I saw some place that "John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley" was of
the
Beverstone Berkeleys, but I can't now find that reference, and I can't
place
this particular pair of father and son in pedigrees of that family.
[snip]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Descent of Amy Robsart From Edward I
[snip]
I wonder if there is anything to be found in Smyth's Lives of the
Berkeleys regarding the marriage of Elizabeth Kerdeston (daughter of
Sir Thomas Kerdeston and Elizabeth de la Pole, per Humphery-Smith) and
"John, son of Sir Maurice Berkeley"? If so, it would confirm that the
Kerdestons had more than just the one daughter Margaret, countess of
Kendal.
Other than that, the will of Sir Thomas Kerdeston might provide some
clues - I'll see if I can track that down.
Does anyone know Humphery-Smith, and can ask about his sources for the
Kerdeston and Robessart genealogies?
Thanks and Cheers,
----Brad