C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of Bu

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Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of Bu

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 feb 2006 20:49:25

Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
Clare family.

Regarding Walter Giffard's marriage, Complete Peerage has the following
to say:

"He married Agnes, sister of Anselm de Ribemont. He [Walter] died 15
July 1102, in England, and was buried at Longueville, in Normandy.
M.I." END OF QUOTE

As we can see, no information is provided regarding his wife, Agnes,
regarding her death date or her activities following her husband's
death.

The charter below is taken from the book, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de
Conques en Rouergue, published by Gustave Desjardins in 1879. The
charter is dated after 1107, and was issued by Earl Walter Giffard the
younger and his mother, Agnes. Thus it appears that Agnes, wife of the
senior Walter, survived his death and was living as late as 1107. By
this charter, the younger Earl Walter conveyed the tithe [decimam] in
Taverham, Norfolk to Conques Abbey. As an aside, I should note that
the charter is witnessed by various military tenants of Earl Walter
Giffard the younger, including Eustache and Robert de Grenville. The
Grenville family has numerous modern descendants in England.

pg. 359:

"497. [DE TAUREHAM.] Après 1107.

Quadragesimali tempore, ebdomada secunda, feria VI, venit comes
Galterus, cognomento Gifardus, Conchas ad sanctam Fidem et mater ejus
Agnes, ibique in præsentia domni Bonefacii abbatis et omnium fratrum,
pro salute sua patrumque suorum et omnium parentum, dederunt omnem
decimam suam quam habebant apud Thaureham ut fratres de Horsam qui sunt
monachi sanctæ Fidis illam teneant et inde abbati respondeant. Testes
sunt: Antelmus de Pothuilla, Rogerus de sancto Laurentio, Thebaldus de
Espolvilla, Rotbertus del Bec, Gislebertus de Pothuilla, Eustachius de
Grandivilla, Rogerus de Berrevilla, Willelmo de Nova Villa, Engerrannus
de Belnai, Odo de Trobetvilla, Eustachius de Chrichetoth, Rotbertus et
Bencio capellani, item Rotbertus de Graneville, Malgerus et alii
clientes, Frahissendis de Granevilla mater Eustachii, Beatrix uxor
Thebaldi, idem Beatrix et ceteri, et omnes sunt testes hujus rei, et
ejusdem monasterii confratres." END OF QUOITE.

Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John Higgins

Re: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl o

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2006 21:47:02

I'd be curious to see the support for the statement below that "most
newsgroup members are in fact descended from his sister, Rohese Giffard".
Presumably you meant to say "most newsgroup members who have traceable
medieval English ancestry"....a much narrower (and perhaps more supportable)
conclusion.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of
Buckingham


Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
Clare family.

[snip of rest]

Douglas Richardson

Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 feb 2006 22:18:01

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John Higgins

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2006 22:59:02

The descendants of Rohese Giffard may indeed be "simply legion", but to say
that she is "in the ancestry of most newsgroup posters" is still a broad and
unsupportable assertion (although slightly narrower than the original
formulation of "most newsgroup members".). It assumes that most
participants in the newsgroup (A) are tracing their own ancestors who (B)
have ancestry in the British Isles which is (C) traceable to the medieval
period. There are quite a few of us who don't qualify under one or more of
these criteria. "Most" of the group? -- I don't know....but I would hope
that the group is more than just a little clique of English medievalists, as
you suggest by your statement.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:


http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 03 feb 2006 05:34:01

I come down from three of her children - Rohese de Clare, Eudes de
Dammartin, Aubri I de Dammartin, Aubri II de Dammartin, Agnes de Dammartin,
Enguerrand de Fiennes, Sir William III de Fiennes, Margaret de Fiennes,
Roger IV de Mortimer, Catherine de Mortimer, Maud de Beauchamp, Catherine de
Clifford, Maud de Greystoke, Lionel Welles, Eleanor Welles, Ann Hoo,
Margaret Copley, Edward Lewknor, Mary Lewknor, Mary Machell, James Cudworth
etc.
Then Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare, Adeliza de Clare, Agnes de Percy, Maud
de Percy, Robert, d'Eiville, John d'Eiville, John d'Eiville, Joan d'Eiville,
William de Everingham, Joan Everingham, Joan Waterton, Eleanor Welles, etc.
etc.
Then Robert fitz Richard de Clare, Maud de St. Liz, William III d"Aubigny,
William IV d'Aubigny, Isabel d'Aubigny, William II de Ros, William III de
Ros, Maud de Ros, John de Welles, Eudo de Welles, Lionel Welles etc. etc.
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 02/03/06 07:49:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 11:09:39

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.


The Pabenhams need to be unhooked from the website: they descend from
an Offord marriage, not Ufford [i.e. no descent from Lord Ufford,
father of the Earl of Suffolk].

MAR

joseph cook

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av joseph cook » 03 feb 2006 14:41:35

No it doesn't. saying "in the ancestry of most newsgroup posters" does
not assume A or C

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 15:18:41

Douglas Richardson wrote:
For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Jim gives descents from Rohese's son Richard, abbot of Ely, which don't

look very likely. One goes via the de Burgh family, another via the
Lucy family; neither account tallies with information posted by Douglas
and others on these families.

FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For Rohese's
daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the
daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.

As for the daughters of Rohese's son Gilbert (d.1117), DNB concurs with
Alice (de Vere), Rohese (of Monmouth) and Margaret (de Monfichet); but
does not include Hawise (de Say) or Agnes (St Leger).

In the next generation, the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).

And, far enough for now, the daughters of earl Roger (d.1173): DNB has
Aveline (de Munchensi/fitzPiers) but not Elana (de Grey); it also adds
another daughter, Mabel, married to William Helion (d.1212-18) with
issue, the Helions of Essex (who have their own DNB article). I've seen
a tree claiming that the Herefordshire Helions descend from this
marriage, but I don't think that's true.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 15:56:18

A couple more points:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).

Jim quotes the CP account which emphatically supports the Clare/Gant

marriage; but is he correct to derive the Woodvilles ultimately from
this match?

The Welsh marriage should be to Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd of course, my
mistake. I seem to remember discussing this not that long ago here; the
DNB says Cadwaladr's wife Aliz de Clare (Adles is just the Welsh
version of Alice) was "quite possibly to be identified with Adeliza,
widow of Richard de Clare d.1136". Whatever the truth, it seems
unlikely she was a daughter of that Richard if he had the other Alice
(m. Wm Percy).

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 feb 2006 16:20:35

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
I come down from three of her children

Myself also, in a large number of lines.

Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.


Doug McDonald

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 16:30:43

Doug McDonald wrote:
Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
I come down from three of her children

Myself also, in a large number of lines.

Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.


Doug McDonald

Dear "other" Doug ~

Besides the royal Brus family in Scotland, I note that Rohese Giffard
is also ancestral to the early Earls of Dunbar and Strathearn in
Scotland, and the Earls of Ulster in Ireland. Her descendants are
simply legion.

I can only fathom how many descents that Prince William has from her.
Perhaps the ever helpful Ian Fettes can enlighten us on that point.

Best always, Douglas Richardson. Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 16:34:41

Dear Michael ~

I suggest you send Jim Weber a private e-mail and tell him the
correction you are proposing. His e-mail address is:

Jim.Weber@nwintl.com

Jim appreciates getting additions and corrections from his fellow
genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.


The Pabenhams need to be unhooked from the website: they descend from
an Offord marriage, not Ufford [i.e. no descent from Lord Ufford,
father of the Earl of Suffolk].

MAR

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 17:11:49

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
A couple more points:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).

Jim quotes the CP account which emphatically supports the Clare/Gant
marriage; but is he correct to derive the Woodvilles ultimately from
this match?

I believe the Clare/Gant marriage you have mentioned is the marriage of
Rohese de Clare and Gilbert de Gant (died 1156), Earl of Lincoln. This
couple can be found in Jim Weber's database at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11127

The evidence for this marriage is found in Rufford Charters, edited by
C.J. Holdsworth, published as Thoroton Society Record Series, vol. 30,
in 1974. On page 392 of that work, Countess Rohese [of Lincoln] is
styled "soror comitis Rogeri de Clara" [i.e., sister of Earl Roger
de Clare]. Rohese de Clare, Countess of Lincoln, was a
great-granddaughter of Rohese Giffard.

Regarding the alleged Wydeville descendants that Jim Weber shows for
Countess Rohese de Clare, it appears that this line is a descent from
an illegitimate branch of the Senlis family, as Rohese's legitimate
daughter, Alice de Gant, wife of Simon de Senlis, definitely died
without issue. As such, the Wydevilles would lose the Clare descent,
although a connection to the Senlis family is still possible.

Fortunately, Countess Rohese de Clare has numerous legitimate
descendants from her 2nd marriage to Robert Fitz Robert, steward to
William de Percy. For interest's sake, I've listed below the various
17th Century colonial immigrants who descend from Countess Rohese de
Clare and Robert Fitz Robert.

William Asfordby, Henry & Thomas Batte, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
Joseph Bolles, Edward Carleton, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Katherine
Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Anne, Roger & Thomas Mallory,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Ellen Newton, George Reade, Richard Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith,
Olive Welby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 feb 2006 17:58:27

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Doug McDonald wrote:
Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
I come down from three of her children
Myself also, in a large number of lines.


I can only fathom how many descents that Prince William has from her.
Perhaps the ever helpful Ian Fettes can enlighten us on that point.


I calculate that I have her 181 times in my Ahnentafel. James VI and I
has her only 259 times in my file. There may be paths through
continental families that I do not have in my file, but they should
be there in the James VI/I data.

Doug McDonald

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard [Revised Post]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 21:06:08

mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
A couple more points:
mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).

Jim quotes the CP account which emphatically supports the Clare/Gant
marriage; but is he correct to derive the Woodvilles ultimately from
this match?

I believe the Clare/Gant marriage you've mentioned is the marriage of
Rohese de Clare and Gilbert de Gant (died 1156), Earl of Lincoln. This
couple can be found in Jim Weber's database at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... eber&id=...

The evidence for this marriage is found in Rufford Charters, edited by
C.J. Holdsworth, published as Thoroton Society Record Series, vol. 30,
in 1974. On page 392 of that work, Countess Rohese [of Lincoln] is
styled "soror comitis Rogeri de Clara" [i.e., sister of Earl Roger
de Clare]. Rohese de Clare, Countess of Lincoln, was a
great-granddaughter of Rohese Giffard.

Regarding the alleged Wydeville descendants that Jim Weber shows for
Countess Rohese de Clare, it appears that this line is a descent from
an illegitimate branch of the Senlis family, as Rohese's legitimate
daughter, Alice de Gant, wife of Simon de Senlis, definitely died
without issue. As such, the Wydevilles would lose the Clare descent,
although a connection to the Senlis family is still possible.

Fortunately, Countess Rohese de Clare has numerous legitimate
descendants from her 2nd marriage to Robert Fitz Robert, steward to
William de Percy. For interest's sake, I've listed below the various
17th Century colonial immigrants who descend from Countess Rohese de
Clare and Robert Fitz Robert.

William Asfordby, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph
Bolles, Edward Carleton, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Katherine Hamby,
Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne
Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, George Reade, Diana &
Grey Skipwith, Olive Welby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 21:09:39

"John Higgins" wrote:
The descendants of Rohese Giffard may indeed be "simply legion", but to say
that she is "in the ancestry of most newsgroup posters" is still a broad and
unsupportable assertion (although slightly narrower than the original
formulation of "most newsgroup members".). It assumes that most
participants in the newsgroup (A) are tracing their own ancestors who (B)
have ancestry in the British Isles which is (C) traceable to the medieval
period. There are quite a few of us who don't qualify under one or more of
these criteria. "Most" of the group? -- I don't know....but I would hope
that the group is more than just a little clique of English medievalists, as
you suggest by your statement.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:


http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 21:17:36

"John Higgins" wrote:

< I would hope that the group is more than just a little clique of
English medievalists, as
< you suggest by your statement.

Rohese Giffard has descendants in all parts of the world. Her
descendants are legion.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net







----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:


http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Ian Fettes

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 03 feb 2006 22:40:02

Douglas,

I am in the middle of a major update to my database, so cannot answer the
question just now. When the update is complete I will post my version of
the lines between Rohese Giffard and Prince William.

Cheers,

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Doug McDonald wrote:
Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
I come down from three of her children

Myself also, in a large number of lines.

Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.


Doug McDonald

Dear "other" Doug ~

Besides the royal Brus family in Scotland, I note that Rohese Giffard
is also ancestral to the early Earls of Dunbar and Strathearn in
Scotland, and the Earls of Ulster in Ireland. Her descendants are
simply legion.

I can only fathom how many descents that Prince William has from her.
Perhaps the ever helpful Ian Fettes can enlighten us on that point.

Best always, Douglas Richardson. Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

______________________________

Ian Fettes

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 04 feb 2006 11:05:02

All,

Following the earlier suggestion of Douglas Richardson, I have now been able
to calculate the number of descent lines to Prince William from Rohese
Giffard. I also show some other interesting descent numbers for comparison.

From Rohese Giffard 270,813 lines
From William the Conqueror 2,337,676 lines
From Charlemagne 1,714,858,673 lines.

Cheers,

Ian Fettes

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 feb 2006 20:30:20

Dear Ian ~

Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
I'll definitely have to work at finding more descents from Rohese
Giffard to catch up to Prince William's total.

When you have a moment, Ian, perhaps you can share how many descents
you possess yourself from Rohese Giffard.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

"Ian Fettes" wrote:
All,

Following the earlier suggestion of Douglas Richardson, I have now been able
to calculate the number of descent lines to Prince William from Rohese
Giffard. I also show some other interesting descent numbers for comparison.

From Rohese Giffard 270,813 lines
From William the Conqueror 2,337,676 lines
From Charlemagne 1,714,858,673 lines.

Cheers,

Ian Fettes

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 21:14:13

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Ian ~

Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.

How do you count "descent"? When I said I had 181, I meant
very exactly that there were so many appearances of her in
my own Ahnentafel ancestor tree, with different Ahanentafel numbers.

5 is a very small number.

Doug McDonald

Douglas Richardson

Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohese G

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 feb 2006 22:05:20

Dear Matthew ~

I've noted your statement that the ODNB states that Rohese Giffard had
a daughter who married Ralph de Fougères. I've researched the
Fougères family in French sources and have found charter evidence
which indicates that the wife of Raoul I, seigneur of Fougères in
Brittany, was named Avice (Latin form: Avicia or Avitia).
Interestingly, this woman is ancestral to Countess Joan de Geneville,
wife of Roger de Mortimer, Knt. (died 1330), 1st Earl of March. Thus,
many newsgroup posters possess the Fougères connection back to Rohese
Giffard through the Mortimer and Geneville families.

The charter below is taken from the cartulary of the Priory of Holy
Trinity de Fougères [Prieuré de la Sainte-Trinité de Fougères]
which was published in Bulletin Archéologique de l'Association
Bretonne, volume 3, published in 1851. According to the editor's notes
(in French), this religious house was founded about the middle of the
11th century by Raoul I de Fougères, seigneur of Fougères, and by his
mother, Adélaïde, widow of Main II de Fougères. The exact date of
the foundation is uncertain, the editor places it as being between 1064
and 1076 (" ... la fondation de notre prieuré se place donc entre 1064
et 1076."). Elsewhere, I find in a post in the newsgroup archives that
Raoul I de Fougères was seigneur of Fougères between 1074 (death date
of his father) and 1120 (his own death date).

In one of the charters published in Fougères cartulary, Raoul I de
Fougères is joined by his wife, Avice, in granting the tithe of
Fougères ["decima de Filgeriis"]:

"X. 'De Decima de Filgeriis."

Notum sit omnibus tam futuris quam presentibus quatinus Radulfus
Filogerensis et uxor ejus Avicia nomine totam Hilduini mansilis militum
vel in militia tenentium decimam, quam in proprietate habebant,
monachis beatissimi Martini Majoris Monasterii pro mille solidis quos
ab eis acceperant, tradiderunt. Habuerant enim ex eis non solum mille
sed etiam tria milia solidorum quos in æcclesiæ Filgorensis
ædificationibus reddere promiserant. Istos ergo Radulfus, annuente
Avitia uxore, reddidit atque compententibus alios temporibus se omnes
redditurum promisit. Hoc donum receperunt beatissimi Martini monachi
Albertus, Rivallonius, Guillelmus, Guarinus, Evanus et Bernerius;
audientibus testibus istis et videntibus Damarroco presbitero.
Herberto presbitero. Radulfo ejusdem oppidi [domini et Avitia] ejus
uxore. Hamelino de Curtellis. Hamelino Pinell .... Bentcerrado.
Roberto de Vendello. Hamelino Lupelli filio. Troserio. Hugone
Gencionis filio. Andrea Guigonis filio. Rogerio. Juhale Juhalis
filio. Item ex familia monachorum Bono amcio de Sancto Salvatore.
Richerio. Arnulfo Martini filio Herberto Fullone. Bernardo Hardfulfo.
Gaufredo et Ogerio.

De hoc dono Radulfi Filogerensis et de omnibus donis quæ ipse vel
pater ejus Maino monachis beatissimi Martini apud Hilduini mansile vel
in comitatu comitis Moritonii fecerant, Guillelmus Moritonii comes pro
palefrido quodam auctoramentum fecit Rivallonio monacho ante montem
Sancti Michaelis et per cum perpetualitier ceteris beatissimi Martini
monachis, audientibus et videntibus testibus istis. Guillelmo de
Biardis. Gaufredo Rivalloni filio. Roberto Giroldi filio et Guidone
de Landevi. Item, apud oppidum Sancti Hilarii, Harchodio vicecomite
Petro fratre ejus Guillelmino Augonis filio et Bociardo de Castelerio.
Secundam iterum decimationem ex propria annona Radulfi Filogerensis
debemus habere." Pris sur l'original, écriture du XIIe siècle. - Au
dos, en écriture de XIIe or du XIIIe siècle: "De decima de
Filgeriis." [Reference: Bulletin Archéologique de l'Association
Bretonne, 3 (1851): 195-196].

For interest's sake, I've listed below the numerous New World 17th
Century colonists who descend from Avice, wife of Raoul de Fougères,
seigneur of Fougères, through her descendant, Joan de Geneville,
Countess of March:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey,
Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Richard & William Bernard, John Bevan,
Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph
Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent,
Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy
Clarke, James Cudworth, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie,
Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
Rowland Ellis, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,
Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe,
Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel
Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell,
Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield,
Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip
& Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert
Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John
Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, John
West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt.

For the generations between Joan de Geneville, Countess of March, and
the individual immigrants listed above, please see Douglas Richardson,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) or Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
<
< FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For
Rohese's
daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the

< daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
< sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
< child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.

< Matthew

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 feb 2006 22:13:21

Doug McDonald wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Ian ~

Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.

How do you count "descent"? When I said I had 181, I meant
very exactly that there were so many appearances of her in
my own Ahnentafel ancestor tree, with different Ahanentafel numbers.

5 is a very small number.

Doug McDonald

By descent, I mean blood descent. I probably have more than five
descent from Rohese Giffard. That's the current number subject to
revision. One newsgroup poster tells me he has 86 descents from Rohese
Giffard through one immigrant alone. That's awesome!

As we work through various additions and corrections to the Clare
family tree, though, the numbers are going to change for everyone.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


..

Ian Fettes

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 04 feb 2006 23:09:02

Hi Douglas,

For what it is worth, I count 2,863 lines from Rohese Giffard, as I manage
to link in to part of Lady Diana Spencer's Devon ancestry.

Cheers,

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Dear Ian ~

Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
I'll definitely have to work at finding more descents from Rohese
Giffard to catch up to Prince William's total.

When you have a moment, Ian, perhaps you can share how many descents
you possess yourself from Rohese Giffard.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 23:37:51

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Doug McDonald wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Ian ~

Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
How do you count "descent"? When I said I had 181, I meant
very exactly that there were so many appearances of her in
my own Ahnentafel ancestor tree, with different Ahanentafel numbers.

5 is a very small number.

Doug McDonald

By descent, I mean blood descent. I probably have more than five
descent from Rohese Giffard. That's the current number subject to
revision. One newsgroup poster tells me he has 86 descents from Rohese
Giffard through one immigrant alone. That's awesome!


I still don't see how you are counting "descents" to get such a small number.

I have two royally connected immigrant ancestors, William Ironmonger and the
Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia. Ironmonger has 4 descents from her in my files,
and Rose has 177. As I said, I simply have a computer generate a complete
Ahnentafel for the near-modern person of interest, including all duplicate lines, and
count up the instances of the distant ancestor of interest. Is that what you are doing?
This means, for example, just as a guess (I have not counted) if the Bruce has
5 descents from Rohese, and I have 10 from the Bruce, I would have 50 from
Rohese using just those lines. If I count only descents that never cross,
I would have only three.

Doug McDonald

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 feb 2006 00:08:04

Dear Doug ~

I reviewed the list of Rohese Giffard's list of descendants for six
generations. So far, I've spotted a total of six descents in my
ancestry. So I'm now up to six descents.

1. Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards

One descent through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter, Earl
of Essex.

2. Elizabeth (Haynes) Cooke:

One descent through Elizabeth de Clare, daughter of Gilbert de Clare,
Earl of Gloucester & Hertford & Joan of England

One descent through a daughter of Isabel de Clare, wife of William
Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.

One descent through Alice de Clare, wife of Aubrey de Vere

3. John Baynard:

One descent through a daughter of Isabel de Clare, wife of William
Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.

One descent through Alice de Clare, wife of Aubrey de Vere

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 feb 2006 05:39:36

Dear Newsgroup ~

Searching through various French sources this evening, I came across an
agreement dated 7 November 1248 between Raoul III de Fougères,
seigneur of Fougères, and his maternal aunts and their husbands,
Pierre de Chemillé and Elienor his wife and Olivier de Montauban and
Jeanne his wife, regarding the rights and possessions of each of them
in the fief of Porhoët formerly held by "monseignor Eun le filz le
Comte." [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de
Morbihan, 1 (1895): 223-225]. This record may be viewed online at the
helpful gallica website at the following weblink:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... ce&Y=Image

Raoul III de Fougères involved in this document was the maternal
grandfather of Joan (or Jeanne) de la Marche, wife of Sir Peter de
Geneville (died 1292), of Ludlow, Shropshire, which Joan in turn was
the mother of Joan de Geneville, wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st
Earl of March.

The individual mentioned as "Eun le filz le Comte" is doubtless the
same individual who appears in earlier charters dated 1221, 1225, and
1231 in this same cartulary as "Eudo filius Comitis." [Reference: Louis
Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 206, 209-210,
215-216]. The modern editor identifies "Eudo filius Comitis" in his
first charter as "Eudes son of the Count of Porhoët," and, in the
later ones as "Eudes Vicomte de Rohan." Curiously, in none of the
charters does Eudes refer to himself as Vicomte of Rohan, nor as Count
Eudes, only as "Eudo filius Comitis." Eudes son of the Count, or if
you prefer Eudes Fitz Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his mother's side, Eudes
Fitz Count was a great-grandson of King Henry I of England.

Eudes Fitz Count's father in turn is the person who appears in a
charter dated 1164 in this same cartulary as Eudes, Count of Brittany
(specifically "Eudo, Britannie comes") [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig,
Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 183-184]. In this charter,
Count Eudes refers to several relatives: Josce his brother ["Joscii
fretris mei"]; his nephews, sons of Josce ["nepotibus meis filiis
videlicet ipsius Joscii "]; his paternal uncle, Josce the vicomte
["Joscius vicecomes, patruus meus"]; and his kinsman, Alan de Rohan
["cognato meo"]. This charter was witnessed by Count Eudes' brother,
Stephen.

Count Eudes ["Eudo comes"] likewise appears in an earlier charter dated
1153, which is given with the consent of Eudes' two brothers, Josce the
Vicomte and Alan Ceoche [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire
général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 179-180]. Alan Ceoche, of course, is
the male line ancestor of the baronial Zouche family of England. Count
Eudes is elsewhere mentioned in a still earlier charter dated 1130,
along with his father, Geoffrey the vicomte [Reference: Louis
Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 172].

Curiously, several of the male relatives of Count Eudes in the above
mentioned charters don't seem to be mentioned in modern databases that
I've checked.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John P. Ravilious

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 feb 2006 14:24:01

Sunday, 5 February, 2006


Dear Doug,

Thanks for that fine post concerning the Fougeres, la Zouche
and related families. Especially for those additional relations
named in the 1164 and 1248 charters/agreements, concerning whom
additional research will be of interest (when time allows).

The few quibbles I have are as follows:

1. Concerning 'Eun le filz le Comte', you wrote.

' Eudes son of the Count, or if you prefer Eudes Fitz
Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his
mother's side, Eudes Fitz Count was a great-grandson
of King Henry I of England. '

It is possible that Eudo III, vicomte de Porhoet was the
son of Eudo 'II' (d. ca. 1185) by his 1st wife, Bertha,
Countess (Duchess as given elsewhere) of Brittany. In
the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage,
to Herve, comte de Leon.

However, I would suggest from the chronology that Maud
de Porhoet, mother of Raoul, was a sister of Eudo III,
and a daughter of Eudo II (see below). This would likewise
make Elienor, wife of Pierre de Chemillé, and Jeanne, wife
of Olivier de Montauban, daughters of Eudo II de Porhoet.

~ In a prior thread, there was discussion whether or
not the wife of this Herve de Leon, illegitimate
daughter of King Stephen of England ("Stephen of
Blois"), was the mother of Eudo's wife. I don't
believe this question has been resolved.


2. Concerning Maud de Porhoet, wife of Geoffrey de Fougeres
and mother of Raoul III de Fougeres, she appears to have
been herself more likely the daughter of Maud de Porhoet.
Bertha of Brittany's son Conan IV of Brittany (by her
first husband, Alan 'the Black') was born sometime before
1140, so it appears at the widest range that Bertha was
born no earlier than say 1114 (her parents married ca.
1113) and say 1125 at the latest. She died sometime
before 1167; if it was held that Maud de Porhoet was her
daughter, she would have been aged between say 33 at the
least, and 43 or more at the most, when Raoul III was
born (say 1200-1210). This seems unlikely.


A rough chart of the family relationships in these few
generations would, I think, look like this (conjectured links
shown thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ _) :


<1> <2>
Alan 'the = 1) Bertha = Eudo de = 2) NN de
Black ' I of Brittany I Porhoet I Leon
d. 1146 I d bef 1167 I d. ca. I
I I 1185 I
I I _ _ _ I _ _ _ _
I I I
Conan IV Eudo III Maud de
Duke of vicomte de Porhoet
Brittany Porhoet = Geoffrey
d. 1171/2 d. 1234 de Fougeres
= Margaret d. 1212
'of Huntingdon' I
I _____________I
V I
Raoul III
d. 24 Feb 1256/7
= Isabel de Craon
I
V


I be interested in your view (and the general view as well)
on the above.

Cheers,

John *





Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Searching through various French sources this evening, I came across an
agreement dated 7 November 1248 between Raoul III de Fougères,
seigneur of Fougères, and his maternal aunts and their husbands,
Pierre de Chemillé and Elienor his wife and Olivier de Montauban and
Jeanne his wife, regarding the rights and possessions of each of them
in the fief of Porhoët formerly held by "monseignor Eun le filz le
Comte." [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de
Morbihan, 1 (1895): 223-225]. This record may be viewed online at the
helpful gallica website at the following weblink:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... ce&Y=Image

Raoul III de Fougères involved in this document was the maternal
grandfather of Joan (or Jeanne) de la Marche, wife of Sir Peter de
Geneville (died 1292), of Ludlow, Shropshire, which Joan in turn was
the mother of Joan de Geneville, wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st
Earl of March.

Snip

John P. Ravilious

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 feb 2006 14:29:13

Hello Again,

Correction: where I wrote,

" In the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage,
to Herve, comte de Leon. "

Read,

" In the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage of
Eudo II of Porhoet to a daughter (unnamed)
of Herve, comte de Leon. "

The first version sounds like part of a scene from "Brokeback
Brittany"......

Cheers,

John




John P. Ravilious wrote:
Sunday, 5 February, 2006


Dear Doug,

Thanks for that fine post concerning the Fougeres, la Zouche
and related families. Especially for those additional relations
named in the 1164 and 1248 charters/agreements, concerning whom
additional research will be of interest (when time allows).

The few quibbles I have are as follows:

1. Concerning 'Eun le filz le Comte', you wrote.

' Eudes son of the Count, or if you prefer Eudes Fitz
Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his
mother's side, Eudes Fitz Count was a great-grandson
of King Henry I of England. '

<<<<<<<<<<<< Snip >>>>>>>>>>>>

Diane Sheppard

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 05 feb 2006 16:40:45

Doug McDonald wrote:
Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.


Doug McDonald

Dear Group,
I agree with Doug McDonald that Rohese has vast numbers of Scottish
descendants & that they are too numerous to mention.

My own ancestry contains 203 lines from Rohese: 21 from Maud
FitzRobert; 18 from Rohese and Eudo de Rie; and 164 from Gilbert
FitzRichard.

I descend from an immigrant to Quebec (Marie Martin who married
Christophe Fevrier) who has Noble/Royal ancestry through her Scottish &
English ancestry. Her ancestry is contained in a well written 15 page
article by Roland-Yves Gagne. The article has been the subject of vast
bandwidth on this forum, so I will not repeat the discussion here -
anyone interested can search for Monteth in the archives, but they
should read the article (in French) rather than simply jumping to
conclusions based on the discussions on this forum.

The only point of this post is the vast number of Rohese's Scottish
descendants, rather than whether or not one agrees with Gagne's
conclusions (I do agree with his conclusions). My own ancestry was
mentioned because I do not descend from one of the immigrants discussed
in Douglas Richardson's or Gary Boyd Robert's books & I did not want
one of the readers to jump to conclusions about her Amercian gateway
descendants.

Diane Sheppard

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 feb 2006 18:19:42

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Regardiing your proposed chronology, I should note that there is a good
pedigree of the Fougères family in the archives which was prepared by
Laurent Ohier. His source of information for this pedigree was the
standard Histoire de Fougères by Maupillé, which source is not
available to me here in Salt Lake City.

According to Mr. Ohier's Fougères pedigree, Raoul III de Fougères was
born in 1207. This date would agree with my file notes which indicate
that Raoul III's parents, Geoffrey de Fougères and Mahaut daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count, were married in 1204.

While you're correct that the 1248 agreement dividing Eudes Fitz
Count's possessions does not state Eudes Fitz Count was the grandfather
of Raoul III de Fougères, the chronology would seem to favor this
arrangement.

My file notes indicate that Eudes Fitz Count's father, Eudes, Count of
Brittany, was still married to Bertha of Brittany in 1162, and that he
died in 1170. If that information is correct, then Count Eudes can
only have had his second marriage to a Miss Léon between 1162 and
1170. If correct, then Count Eudes would not be the father of Maud,
wife of Geoffrey de Fougères, who married in 1204.

However, checking your post, I see that you state that Count Eudes died
about 1185, not 1170. If so, then it is still pressing the chronology
a bit for Maud, wife of Geoffrey de Fougères, to be his daughter by
his 2nd marriage. All the same, I think it would do us well to nail
down a better death date for Count Eudes.

Regarding the identity of the 2nd wife of Count Eudes, in your post you
state that she was the daughter of Count Hervé de Léon. However,
Complete Peerage identifies Count Eudes' 2nd wife as the daughter of
Guiomar, son of Hervey, Vicomte of Leon [Reference: Complete Peerage,
10 (1945): 701, footnote c, citing as its source Robert de Torigny,
Rolls Ser., pg. 232]. I believe that a copy of Robert of Torigny is
online through gallica should you wish to consult it. Complete Peerage
states that according to Torigny, Count Eudes and Miss de Léon were
married in or before 1167. Unfortunately Complete Peerage gives no
particulars regarding Count Eudes' death date, nor any information
regarding any of his children, including Eudes Fitz Count.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John P. Ravilious wrote:
< Sunday, 5 February, 2006
<
<
< Dear Doug,
<
< Thanks for that fine post concerning the Fougeres, la Zouche
< and related families. Especially for those additional relations
< named in the 1164 and 1248 charters/agreements, concerning whom
< additional research will be of interest (when time allows).
<
< The few quibbles I have are as follows:
<
< 1. Concerning 'Eun le filz le Comte', you wrote.
<
< ' Eudes son of the Count, or if you prefer Eudes Fitz
< Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
< de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his
< mother's side, Eudes Fitz Count was a great-grandson
< of King Henry I of England. '
<
< It is possible that Eudo III, vicomte de Porhoet was the
< son of Eudo 'II' (d. ca. 1185) by his 1st wife, Bertha,
< Countess (Duchess as given elsewhere) of Brittany. In
< the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
< Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage,
< to Herve, comte de Leon.
<
< However, I would suggest from the chronology that Maud
de Porhoet, mother of Raoul, was a sister of Eudo III,
and a daughter of Eudo II (see below). This would likewise
make Elienor, wife of Pierre de Chemillé, and Jeanne, wife
of Olivier de Montauban, daughters of Eudo II de Porhoet.

~ In a prior thread, there was discussion whether or
not the wife of this Herve de Leon, illegitimate
daughter of King Stephen of England ("Stephen of
Blois"), was the mother of Eudo's wife. I don't
believe this question has been resolved.


2. Concerning Maud de Porhoet, wife of Geoffrey de Fougeres
and mother of Raoul III de Fougeres, she appears to have
been herself more likely the daughter of Maud de Porhoet.
Bertha of Brittany's son Conan IV of Brittany (by her
first husband, Alan 'the Black') was born sometime before
1140, so it appears at the widest range that Bertha was
born no earlier than say 1114 (her parents married ca.
1113) and say 1125 at the latest. She died sometime
before 1167; if it was held that Maud de Porhoet was her
daughter, she would have been aged between say 33 at the
least, and 43 or more at the most, when Raoul III was
born (say 1200-1210). This seems unlikely.


A rough chart of the family relationships in these few
generations would, I think, look like this (conjectured links
shown thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ _) :


1> <2
Alan 'the = 1) Bertha = Eudo de = 2) NN de
Black ' I of Brittany I Porhoet I Leon
d. 1146 I d bef 1167 I d. ca. I
I I 1185 I
I I _ _ _ I _ _ _ _
I I I
Conan IV Eudo III Maud de
Duke of vicomte de Porhoet
Brittany Porhoet = Geoffrey
d. 1171/2 d. 1234 de Fougeres
= Margaret d. 1212
'of Huntingdon' I
I _____________I
V I
Raoul III
d. 24 Feb 1256/7
= Isabel de Craon
I
V


I be interested in your view (and the general view as well)
on the above.

Cheers,

John *

John P. Ravilious

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 feb 2006 20:24:00

Dear Doug,

Thanks for that post.

If this lineage can be established as solid, that will be nice
indeed (we all need more descents from Henry I, after all). I think I
tried to access the Histoire de Fougeres at the LOC previously and
found it was not held there, but will try this out again.

Cheers,

John



Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Regardiing your proposed chronology, I should note that there is a good
pedigree of the Fougères family in the archives which was prepared by
Laurent Ohier. His source of information for this pedigree was the
standard Histoire de Fougères by Maupillé, which source is not
available to me here in Salt Lake City.

According to Mr. Ohier's Fougères pedigree, Raoul III de Fougères was
born in 1207. This date would agree with my file notes which indicate
that Raoul III's parents, Geoffrey de Fougères and Mahaut daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count, were married in 1204.

<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gjest

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 feb 2006 12:12:54

Dear Douglas,

Thanks for the proof that Ralph de Fougeres married Avice- I had seen
her name given as Avoise and Avoye, 'frenchified' versions of the name;
I don't know why the DNB didn't name her. Jim Weber quotes CP re: the
'other' Avice, which doubts her connection (the wife of Robert de
Stafford). The 'other' Rohese (m. Ralph de Tellieres) seems dubious,
too, so it looks like the DNB was right to omit them.

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Matthew ~

I've noted your statement that the ODNB states that Rohese Giffard had
a daughter who married Ralph de Fougères. I've researched the
Fougères family in French sources and have found charter evidence
which indicates that the wife of Raoul I, seigneur of Fougères in
Brittany, was named Avice (Latin form: Avicia or Avitia).
(snip)
mvernonconnolly wrote:
FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For
Rohese's
daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the
daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.

Fast-forwarding to Richard, 3rd Earl of Hertford (d.1217), he had a
daughter who married Rhys Gryg, son of the Lord Rhys, in 1219. Rhys
Gryg had many children, with plenty of lines to today, but also several
partners, and I don't know of proof that the de Clare bride was mother
to any continuous descents, i.e. those through Philip ap Rhys Gryg. The
DNB wonders if she might have been mother to Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg
(d.1271), lord of Dryslwyn, although Bartrum gives his mother as
Gwenllian ferch Elidir ab Owain.

Matthew

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 06 feb 2006 16:18:02

In message of 6 Feb, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Thanks for the proof that Ralph de Fougeres married Avice- I had seen
her name given as Avoise and Avoye, 'frenchified' versions of the name;
I don't know why the DNB didn't name her. Jim Weber quotes CP re: the
'other' Avice, which doubts her connection (the wife of Robert de
Stafford). The 'other' Rohese (m. Ralph de Tellieres) seems dubious,
too, so it looks like the DNB was right to omit them.

Aalph and Avice as husband and wife can also be found in Keats-Rohan's
DP 332 and DD 461.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 06 feb 2006 19:02:30

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

< Aalph and Avice as husband and wife can also be found in
Keats-Rohan's
< DP 332 and DD 461.
<
< Tim Powys-Lybbe
tim@powys.org


I think Tim meant to say that Ralph de Fougeres and Avice his wife
appear in Keats-Rohan DP. So what does Keats-Rohan say specifically
about this couple?

DR

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl o

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 06 feb 2006 19:22:27

Nice catch, Douglas!

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-91413

Hopefully the link will work.

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
Clare family.

Regarding Walter Giffard's marriage, Complete Peerage has the following
to say:

"He married Agnes, sister of Anselm de Ribemont. He [Walter] died 15
July 1102, in England, and was buried at Longueville, in Normandy.
M.I." END OF QUOTE

As we can see, no information is provided regarding his wife, Agnes,
regarding her death date or her activities following her husband's
death.

The charter below is taken from the book, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de
Conques en Rouergue, published by Gustave Desjardins in 1879. The
charter is dated after 1107, and was issued by Earl Walter Giffard the
younger and his mother, Agnes. Thus it appears that Agnes, wife of the
senior Walter, survived his death and was living as late as 1107. By
this charter, the younger Earl Walter conveyed the tithe [decimam] in
Taverham, Norfolk to Conques Abbey. As an aside, I should note that
the charter is witnessed by various military tenants of Earl Walter
Giffard the younger, including Eustache and Robert de Grenville. The
Grenville family has numerous modern descendants in England.

pg. 359:

"497. [DE TAUREHAM.] Après 1107.

Quadragesimali tempore, ebdomada secunda, feria VI, venit comes
Galterus, cognomento Gifardus, Conchas ad sanctam Fidem et mater ejus
Agnes, ibique in præsentia domni Bonefacii abbatis et omnium fratrum,
pro salute sua patrumque suorum et omnium parentum, dederunt omnem
decimam suam quam habebant apud Thaureham ut fratres de Horsam qui sunt
monachi sanctæ Fidis illam teneant et inde abbati respondeant. Testes
sunt: Antelmus de Pothuilla, Rogerus de sancto Laurentio, Thebaldus de
Espolvilla, Rotbertus del Bec, Gislebertus de Pothuilla, Eustachius de
Grandivilla, Rogerus de Berrevilla, Willelmo de Nova Villa, Engerrannus
de Belnai, Odo de Trobetvilla, Eustachius de Chrichetoth, Rotbertus et
Bencio capellani, item Rotbertus de Graneville, Malgerus et alii
clientes, Frahissendis de Granevilla mater Eustachii, Beatrix uxor
Thebaldi, idem Beatrix et ceteri, et omnes sunt testes hujus rei, et
ejusdem monasterii confratres." END OF QUOITE.

Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 06 feb 2006 22:31:33

Dear John ~

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously indicated
that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas you had about
1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who appears on a list
of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey Plantagenet,
Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Morice Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a
l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707]. Thus, it appears that
Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before
1195, as I note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his
brother, Henri, witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan
(husband of Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference:
Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1
(1742): 698]. This charter dates sometime before Alain III's death,
which I show took place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz
Count (son and heir of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks
of St. Jagu in 1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves
a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records
together, it appears that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was
presumably dead before 1195, and certainly dead before 1201. He
presumably had his two surviving sons, Eudes Fitz Count and his
brother, Henri, by his 2nd marriage to _____ de Leon.

Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count, I find him
consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes Fitz
Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet, Morice's pedigree
chart of this family which is cited above states he was Count of
Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is so, the
contemporary charters do not at all bear this out. He is not called
count in any of the numerous documents regarding the division of his
estates, but his father is always so styled. He is likewise never
associated with a surname, Porhoet, although I find modern editors
assign this surname to him and his children.

So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up. Also,
problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical. Shades of
Henriette Marie!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: wwww.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av CED » 07 feb 2006 01:59:49

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~

Regarding the death date of Eudes, Count (or Duke) of Brittany (2nd
husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
to know about it.

Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously indicated
that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas you had about
1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who appears on a list
of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey Plantagenet,
Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Morice Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a
l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707].

To the Newsgroup:

Can Richardson inform us as to whether his source describes the duke of
Brittiany who "issued" a list of "major barons" in 1185, names that
duke "Geoffrey Plantagenet"? If so, that would be a major discovery;
for it would the first instance of an inherited surname's being used by
the duke's family before Richard, duke of York, did so in the 15th
Century.

If the source did not use the surname, why would Richarson insert it?
We see that surname used in many places on the internet, which is
excusable when most database programs operate well only with the use of
surnames. But for a 'trained' genealogist to insert that particular
surname unnecessarily (as it is in this case) is to demonstrate either
ignorance or carelessness. It could mislead those on the list who are
less well informed.

CED




Thus, it appears that
Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before
1195, as I note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his
brother, Henri, witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan
(husband of Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference:
Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1
(1742): 698]. This charter dates sometime before Alain III's death,
which I show took place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz
Count (son and heir of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks
of St. Jagu in 1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves
a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records
together, it appears that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was
presumably dead before 1195, and certainly dead before 1201. He
presumably had his two surviving sons, Eudes Fitz Count and his
brother, Henri, by his 2nd marriage to _____ de Leon.

Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count, I find him
consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes Fitz
Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet, Morice's pedigree
chart of this family which is cited above states he was Count of
Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is so, the
contemporary charters do not at all bear this out. He is not called
count in any of the numerous documents regarding the division of his
estates, but his father is always so styled. He is likewise never
associated with a surname, Porhoet, although I find modern editors
assign this surname to him and his children.

So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up. Also,
problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical. Shades of
Henriette Marie!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: wwww.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 07 feb 2006 02:29:12

CED wrote:

< It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.

<CED

Such as ... yourself?

DR

CED

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av CED » 07 feb 2006 03:52:23

Douglas Richardson wrote:
CED wrote:

It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.

CED

Such as ... yourself?

DR

To the Newsgroup:

A snide remark is of no consequence.

Richardson does not inform us of whether is source used the term
"Geoffrey Plantagenet" or he chose to insert it into his reference to
his source. This question goes to the heart of Richardson's
credibility and his use of sources. Does he interpret his sources as
they stand or does he insert matter foreign to the source? If he does
not explain his methods on such little matters, then how can he be
trusted in any of his use of sources?

CED

Douglas Richardson

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 07 feb 2006 03:59:28

CED wrote:
< Douglas Richardson wrote:
< > CED wrote:
< >
< > < It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.
< >
< > <CED
< >
< > Such as ... yourself?
< >
< > DR
<
< To the Newsgroup:
<
< A snide remark is of no consequence.

Not snide at all. I was being honest.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Avice, wife of Raoul I de Fougères, and daughter of Rohe

Legg inn av CED » 07 feb 2006 04:16:30

Douglas Richardson wrote:
CED wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
CED wrote:

It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.

CED

Such as ... yourself?

DR

To the Newsgroup:

A snide remark is of no consequence.

Not snide at all. I was being honest.


To the Newsgroup:

Apparently Richardson has no regard for his credibility in the use of
sources. He would rather comment on a matter about which he has no
knowledge. Where is his much touted, self-pronounced reputation as a
'trained' genealogist and historian? Even undergraduate history majors
are taught how to use, and make reference to, sources. How can we
trust any of his refences to sources if he cannot explain this
reference to Plantagenet? Could it be that he inserted it in ignorance
of its first use as an inherited surname in that family? Ignorance can
be excused; but an purposeful insertion in a reference is
unprofessional.

CED
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 09 feb 2006 19:00:33

"Merilyn Pedrick" wrote:
I come down from three of her children - Rohese de Clare, Eudes de
Dammartin, Aubri I de Dammartin, Aubri II de Dammartin, Agnes de Dammartin,
Enguerrand de Fiennes, Sir William III de Fiennes, Margaret de Fiennes,
Roger IV de Mortimer, Catherine de Mortimer, Maud de Beauchamp, Catherine de
Clifford, Maud de Greystoke, Lionel Welles, Eleanor Welles, Ann Hoo,
Margaret Copley, Edward Lewknor, Mary Lewknor, Mary Machell, James Cudworth
etc.

Dear Newsgroup ~

Merilyn Pedrick has kindly displayed a descent above from Rohese
Giffard through the Counts of Dammartin and the Fiennes family.

My files show that Rohese Giffard's daughter, Rohese, married Eudes the
Steward (often called Eudo Dapifer), by whom she has descendents.
However, I don't show a second marriage for Rohese, widow of Eudes the
Steward, to Hugues I de Montdidier, Count of Dammartin.

Does anyone know the evidence for the Dammartin marriage?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net



I don't have any marriage for Rohese to
-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 02/03/06 07:49:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I01761

I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.

Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

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