Sir John Ferrers MP

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:32:01

In reply to JT Higgins regarding Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, as you
mentioned my reference to the supposed marriage with Margaret Hungerford, may I
clarify my position way back then and my revised position now. In that reference
I asked questions about the marriage which I had noticed in several places
online, and it was referred to in Burke's Dormant and Extinct Baronetcies of
1838. That may well have come from a reference by Sir Richard Colt Hoare in his
history of the Hungerford family (Hungerfordiana) in 1823 where he refers to
John Ferrers of Plowden, Wilts. He is also referred to in the Wiltshire
Visitations of 1623. However, recently I contacted the Wiltshire Record Office
and the Heritage Library and discovered that they had no knowledge of a Plowden
in the county. They could find no record of John Ferrers of Tamworth, but
they did find a John Ferrers of Blunsden, Wilts. It seemed likely that a
mistake had been made very early due to a confusion of two different John Ferrers.
It may well be that a John Ferrers of Blunsden married Margaret Hungerford,
but
he was not the father of Catherine who married Sir Anthony Babington. I
understand from Brad Verity that he too is inclined to this view. I am very
grateful to Brad for raising the matter and challening my former view.
Turning to Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, I refer to the evidence of
S.T.Bindoff's excellent biographical sketches in his History of Parliament 1485-1547.
Regarding Sir John Ferrers MP Staffordshire 1478 he refers to his birth c.
1449 (According to Acheson in A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the 15th
century, his parents Sir Thomas Ferrers and Anne Hastings were married in
1448) He married Maud, daughter of Sir John Stanley MP, of Elford, Staffordshire(
1423-1476) and had John Ferrers MP (1463-1513), and their descendants
represented Tamworth continually until the 19th. century. Sir John, the father,
sailed with the King's expedition to France in command of twenty men-at-arms and
120 archers in 1475. He was JP for Staffordshire from 11 Nov 1480 until 5
December 1483. He acquired the custody of the lands and heir of Sir Walter
Griffith of Wichnor, Staffs.in Oct 1481. Richard 111 removed him from the bench
in Dec. 1483 and gave him a pension for life of 40 marks on 3 Mar 1484
(Calendar of Patent Rolls 1484) As there is no further mention of him he must have
died in 1484 or probably just before Bosworth. Perhaps he died at Bosworth
Field. A tomb in Lichfield Cathedral refers to him as the son of Thomas Ferrers
and Anne Hastings, and mentions his his wife Maud Stanley.

Sir John Ferrers c.1464-1513 of Tamworth MP for Stafford He is referred to
as the son of Sir John Stanley MP 1438?-1484 by Maud(Stanley). He married by
1488 Maud, and secondly Dorothy daughter of William Harpur of Rushall,
Staffordshire. His will is dated 6 October, 1508 and proved on 13 May 1513. His
exors. were his wife and Sir Walter Griffith of Wichnor.

Sir Anthony Babington MP of Dethick, Derbyshire. (from History of Parliament
1509-1558)
He was born by 1476, son of Thomas Babington of Dethick and Edith
Fitzherbert of Norbury, Derbyshire. He died at Kingston-on-Soar on 23 August, 1536. His
will was drawn up on 18 February 1534 and proved on 2 September, 1536.
(Note that many online have his death at 1544 presumably following Nichols in his
County History of Leicestershire)
His widow Catherine died in the following year, 1537: I have copies of their
wills.
Regarding Sir Anthony's marriages, the parliamentary history refers to his
first marriage settlement on 20 March 1498 to Elizabeth (d. Nov. 1505) daughter
of John Ormond of Alfreton, Derbyshire. He married secondly by 1509
Catherine, daughter of Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, Staffordshire, widow of Thomas
Cotton of Hamstall Ridware, Staffordshire.
(He must have married Catherine earlier as there is a reference to the death
of his mother-in-law, Joan Ormond in 1507, when he acquired interest in the
manors of Marnham, Osberton and Tuxford. My guess is they married in 1506.)
There is much more on Sir Anthony,his career and his possessions, but that is
sufficient for this purpose.

I note that PE Stanley in his book The House of Stanley has Maud born in
1470 and married to Sir John Ferrers, MP of Tamworth.

I hope this is helpful. Thank you for raising the matter. Thanks also to
Will Johnson for his very helpful contributions. A special thank you to Brad for
his challenge and useful notes.
I do hope someone can add further information about the Ferrers-Stanley
marriage, and in particular the daughter Catherine Ferrers who married Sir
Anthony Babington, as my own personal interest is in that line.

Alex

John Higgins

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av John Higgins » 03 feb 2006 19:58:02

This is another useful piece of information in the Ferrers puzzle, in
helping to deal with the Ferrers/Hungerford marriage. The marriage of John
Ferrers "of Plowden" to Margaret Hungerford is mentioned in Burke's Dormant
and Extinct Peerages (but not his Baronetcies book). FWIW, the Tudorplace
website shows Margaret as marrying John Ferrers of Blunsden, whose
descendants are called Ferrers of Fiddington in Gloucestershire. Tudorplace
gives no parentage for John Ferrers of Blunsden, and of course no sources.
Interestingly, his great-grandson is shown as marrying a daughter of the
family of Ferrers of Baddesley Clinton.

As to the children of John Ferrers I and II of Tamworth, recent posts from
Brad Verity and Will Johnson have shown that Elizabeth [Ferrers] Chetwynd
and Jane [Ferrers] Griffith were daughters of John Ferrers I and Maud
Stanley, not of their son John II and Dorothy Harpur. It appears to be less
definite that Catherine [Ferrers] Babington was also a daughter of John I,
although the chronology seems to favor this placement. Is there any more
definite evidence as to Catherine's parentage?

----- Original Message -----
From: <AlexStewart17@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: Sir John Ferrers MP


In reply to JT Higgins regarding Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, as you
mentioned my reference to the supposed marriage with Margaret Hungerford,
may I
clarify my position way back then and my revised position now. In that
reference
I asked questions about the marriage which I had noticed in several places
online, and it was referred to in Burke's Dormant and Extinct Baronetcies
of
1838. That may well have come from a reference by Sir Richard Colt Hoare
in his
history of the Hungerford family (Hungerfordiana) in 1823 where he refers
to
John Ferrers of Plowden, Wilts. He is also referred to in the Wiltshire
Visitations of 1623. However, recently I contacted the Wiltshire Record
Office
and the Heritage Library and discovered that they had no knowledge of a
Plowden
in the county. They could find no record of John Ferrers of Tamworth, but
they did find a John Ferrers of Blunsden, Wilts. It seemed likely that a
mistake had been made very early due to a confusion of two different John
Ferrers.
It may well be that a John Ferrers of Blunsden married Margaret
Hungerford,
but
he was not the father of Catherine who married Sir Anthony Babington. I
understand from Brad Verity that he too is inclined to this view. I am
very
grateful to Brad for raising the matter and challening my former view.
Turning to Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, I refer to the evidence of
S.T.Bindoff's excellent biographical sketches in his History of Parliament
1485-1547.
Regarding Sir John Ferrers MP Staffordshire 1478 he refers to his birth
c.
1449 (According to Acheson in A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the
15th
century, his parents Sir Thomas Ferrers and Anne Hastings were married in
1448) He married Maud, daughter of Sir John Stanley MP, of Elford,
Staffordshire(
1423-1476) and had John Ferrers MP (1463-1513), and their descendants
represented Tamworth continually until the 19th. century. Sir John, the
father,
sailed with the King's expedition to France in command of twenty
men-at-arms and
120 archers in 1475. He was JP for Staffordshire from 11 Nov 1480 until 5
December 1483. He acquired the custody of the lands and heir of Sir
Walter
Griffith of Wichnor, Staffs.in Oct 1481. Richard 111 removed him from the
bench
in Dec. 1483 and gave him a pension for life of 40 marks on 3 Mar 1484
(Calendar of Patent Rolls 1484) As there is no further mention of him he
must have
died in 1484 or probably just before Bosworth. Perhaps he died at
Bosworth
Field. A tomb in Lichfield Cathedral refers to him as the son of Thomas
Ferrers
and Anne Hastings, and mentions his his wife Maud Stanley.

Sir John Ferrers c.1464-1513 of Tamworth MP for Stafford He is referred
to
as the son of Sir John Stanley MP 1438?-1484 by Maud(Stanley). He
married by
1488 Maud, and secondly Dorothy daughter of William Harpur of Rushall,
Staffordshire. His will is dated 6 October, 1508 and proved on 13 May
1513. His
exors. were his wife and Sir Walter Griffith of Wichnor.

Sir Anthony Babington MP of Dethick, Derbyshire. (from History of
Parliament
1509-1558)
He was born by 1476, son of Thomas Babington of Dethick and Edith
Fitzherbert of Norbury, Derbyshire. He died at Kingston-on-Soar on 23
August, 1536. His
will was drawn up on 18 February 1534 and proved on 2 September, 1536.
(Note that many online have his death at 1544 presumably following
Nichols in his
County History of Leicestershire)
His widow Catherine died in the following year, 1537: I have copies of
their
wills.
Regarding Sir Anthony's marriages, the parliamentary history refers to his
first marriage settlement on 20 March 1498 to Elizabeth (d. Nov. 1505)
daughter
of John Ormond of Alfreton, Derbyshire. He married secondly by 1509
Catherine, daughter of Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, Staffordshire, widow
of Thomas
Cotton of Hamstall Ridware, Staffordshire.
(He must have married Catherine earlier as there is a reference to the
death
of his mother-in-law, Joan Ormond in 1507, when he acquired interest in
the
manors of Marnham, Osberton and Tuxford. My guess is they married in
1506.)
There is much more on Sir Anthony,his career and his possessions, but
that is
sufficient for this purpose.

I note that PE Stanley in his book The House of Stanley has Maud born in
1470 and married to Sir John Ferrers, MP of Tamworth.

I hope this is helpful. Thank you for raising the matter. Thanks also to
Will Johnson for his very helpful contributions. A special thank you to
Brad for
his challenge and useful notes.
I do hope someone can add further information about the Ferrers-Stanley
marriage, and in particular the daughter Catherine Ferrers who married Sir
Anthony Babington, as my own personal interest is in that line.

Alex




Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 04 feb 2006 01:56:32

"John Higgins" wrote:

As to the children of John Ferrers I and II of Tamworth, recent posts from
Brad Verity and Will Johnson have shown that Elizabeth [Ferrers] Chetwynd
and Jane [Ferrers] Griffith were daughters of John Ferrers I and Maud
Stanley, not of their son John II and Dorothy Harpur. It appears to be less
definite that Catherine [Ferrers] Babington was also a daughter of John I,
although the chronology seems to favor this placement. Is there any more
definite evidence as to Catherine's parentage?

Dear John,

Sir Walter Griffith (d. 1531), husband of Jane Ferrers of Tamworth,
refers in his will to "Antone Babyngton Esquyer, my broder".

I put the full transcription of the will in a post I made titled 'Sir
Walter Griffith (d. 1531) & Jane Ferrers of Tamworth' but this was when
the gateway was broken and the post never made it onto Google. So
below are excerpts from that post. I'm putting the transcription of
the will in a separate post.

Cheers, ---------Brad

**************************************
Many sources have Jane Ferrers, wife of Sir Walter Griffith, of Burton
Agnes, as the daughter of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth (abt. 1463 -
1512) and his wife Dorothy Harpur. Yet it seems she was instead the
daughter of John Ferrers I of Tamworth (abt. 1438 - 1484).

Sir John Ferrers I was granted the custody and marriage of 8-year-old
Walter Griffith in 1482. From CPR 1476-1485, p. 297: "10 April 1482,
Westminster. Grant to John Ferrers, knight, of the custody of all
lordships, manors, lands, rents, reversions, services, knights' fees,
advowsons, views of frankpledge, courts, leets, liberties and
hereditaments in the counties of Stafford, Warwick and Nottingham late
of Walter Griffith, knight, from his death during the minority of
Walter his son and heir and the custody and marriage of the latter
without disparagement, and also the reversions of all manors, lands,
rents, services, knights' fees, advowsons and hereditaments in the
counties of York and Lincoln which Agnes late the wife of the said
Walter holds for life, and all lands parcel of the manor of Orby, co.
Lincoln, which Rhys Griffith holds for life, to hold as above,
rendering to the king from this day 100 marks yearly at the receipt of
the Exchequer. By p.s."

Walter Griffith proved his age in June, 9 Hen. VII [1494]. From CIPM
Henry VII, Vol. 1, p. 407: "Walter Griffith, son and heir of Walter
Griffith, knt., deceased. York. He was born at Burton Annays, and
baptized in the parish church there, 7 June, 13 Edw. IV [1473], Robert
then Prior of Bridlington, Robert Constable knt., and Marjory then wife
of William Euere, knt., being gossips [godparents]. His lands of
inheritance were in the custody of Maud, widow and executrix of John
Ferrers, knt., who had the same of the grant of the said King Edward
IV."

One noteworthy aspect about the above is the mention that Sir John
Ferrers I's widow was named Maud. Alex Stewart has research which
indicates that John Ferrers I was married twice, first to Maud Stanley
of Elford, and second to Margaret Hungerford of Down Ampney, by whom he
had a daughter Catherine Ferrers (d. 1537), who married 1st, Thomas
Cotton, and 2nd, Sir Anthony Babington, of Dethick, Derbyshire. But if
the above Proof of Age is correct, John only had the one wife Maud.

What's interesting about the will, other than Sir Walter's seemingly
obsessive attention to detail (also evident in his tablet of obits of
his Griffith ancestors posted previously to the newsgroup), is the
genealogy that emerges: Jane Ferrers Griffith survived her husband;
their four children were the two sons George (not referred by name in
the will, but Sir Walter's heir), who was married to Elizabeth
Skeffington by 1530, and John, and the two daughters Agnes, widow of
John Egerton, and unmarried Margaret. Also Sir Walter's half-brother
Eustace Clifton, and his "broder" Antone Babyngton Esquire, who was in
actuality his brother-in-law Anthony Babington (HOP says he was
knighted after 3 Nov. 1529 - we now know he was knighted after 24 June
1530), married to Catherine Ferrers, the sister of his wife.

Though it turns out Sir Walter was not descended from Edward III, his
wife Jane was descended from Edward I through the Ferrers of Tamworth,
and from the chronology and evidence, was daughter of John Ferrers I,
not John Ferrers II.

Hope this is of use to those researching the Griffith and Ferrers of
Tamworth families.
*************************************

Gjest

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 feb 2006 12:53:45

Very interesting about the corrections to the placements of Ferrers
daughters in the tree; the same effect has happened with Maud Stanley
in the pedigree of the Stanleys of Elford. She is often (eg, Harl.
2187, Gresleys of Drakelow I think) given as daughter of the younger
John Stanley (1446-1508), but the fact that she had a son in 1463
(sometimes said to be 1474 though) would prove she was daughter to the
elder Sir John Stanley, as below; what's more, (if 1463 is correct) she
must have been born by 1450 or so, so would be by Sir John's first
marriage, to Cecilia Arderne.

Alex Stewart wrote:
Turning to Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth, I refer to the evidence of
S.T.Bindoff's excellent biographical sketches in his History of Parliament 1485-1547.
Regarding Sir John Ferrers MP Staffordshire 1478 he refers to his birth c.
1449 (According to Acheson in A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the 15th
century, his parents Sir Thomas Ferrers and Anne Hastings were married in
1448) He married Maud, daughter of Sir John Stanley MP, of Elford, Staffordshire(
1423-1476) and had John Ferrers MP (1463-1513

I note that PE Stanley in his book The House of Stanley has Maud born in
1470 and married to Sir John Ferrers, MP of Tamworth.

Don't know that book, but that date seems to be at least 20 years out,
as shown above.

Matthew

Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 06 feb 2006 19:29:01

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Very interesting about the corrections to the placements of Ferrers
daughters in the tree; the same effect has happened with Maud Stanley
in the pedigree of the Stanleys of Elford. She is often (eg, Harl.
2187, Gresleys of Drakelow I think) given as daughter of the younger
John Stanley (1446-1508), but the fact that she had a son in 1463
(sometimes said to be 1474 though) would prove she was daughter to the
elder Sir John Stanley, as below; what's more, (if 1463 is correct) she
must have been born by 1450 or so, so would be by Sir John's first
marriage, to Cecilia Arderne.

Dear Matthew,

The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34 at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the
1474 birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct. Perhaps
Wedgwood misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498. 1463 just
seems too early as Thomas II and Anne Hastings were not married until
1448. A date of 1474 for John II's birth also fits in better
chronologically with the known birthdates of his sisters' husbands.

I agree with you that Maud Stanley wife of John Ferrers I was the
daughter of the elder Sir John Stanley of Elford. Two children of
Thomas Ferrers II married first cousins: his son John I married Maud,
daughter of Sir John Stanley, son of Thomas Stanley; and his daughter
Anne Ferrers married Sir Thomas Gresley, son of Anne Stanley Gresley,
daughter of Thomas Stanley.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Gjest

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 16:42:32

Brad Verity wrote:
mvernonconnolly wrote:
Very interesting about the corrections to the placements of Ferrers
daughters in the tree; the same effect has happened with Maud Stanley
in the pedigree of the Stanleys of Elford. She is often (eg, Harl.
2187, Gresleys of Drakelow I think) given as daughter of the younger
John Stanley (1446-1508), but the fact that she had a son in 1463
(sometimes said to be 1474 though) would prove she was daughter to the
elder Sir John Stanley, as below; what's more, (if 1463 is correct) she
must have been born by 1450 or so, so would be by Sir John's first
marriage, to Cecilia Arderne.

Dear Matthew,

The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34 at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the
1474 birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct. Perhaps
Wedgwood misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498. 1463 just
seems too early as Thomas II and Anne Hastings were not married until
1448. A date of 1474 for John II's birth also fits in better
chronologically with the known birthdates of his sisters' husbands.

I agree with you that Maud Stanley wife of John Ferrers I was the
daughter of the elder Sir John Stanley of Elford. Two children of
Thomas Ferrers II married first cousins: his son John I married Maud,
daughter of Sir John Stanley, son of Thomas Stanley; and his daughter
Anne Ferrers married Sir Thomas Gresley, son of Anne Stanley Gresley,
daughter of Thomas Stanley.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Thanks Brad; I guess that means Maud's birthdate can't be pinpointed
sufficiently to say who her mother was- if Maud was a few years younger
than her husband, she could be by Sir John's Vernon wife instead.

Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 22 feb 2006 23:13:23

Brad Verity wrote:

The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34 at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the
1474 birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct. Perhaps
Wedgwood misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498.

It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."

So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands.

Cheers, ----------Brad

Brad Verity

Ferrers of Fiddington (Was Re: Sir John Ferrers MP)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 23 feb 2006 02:03:03

"John Higgins" wrote:

This is another useful piece of information in the Ferrers puzzle, in
helping to deal with the Ferrers/Hungerford marriage. The marriage of John
Ferrers "of Plowden" to Margaret Hungerford is mentioned in Burke's Dormant
and Extinct Peerages (but not his Baronetcies book). FWIW, the Tudorplace
website shows Margaret as marrying John Ferrers of Blunsden, whose
descendants are called Ferrers of Fiddington in Gloucestershire. Tudorplace
gives no parentage for John Ferrers of Blunsden, and of course no sources.
Interestingly, his great-grandson is shown as marrying a daughter of the
family of Ferrers of Baddesley Clinton.

Last week at the UCLA Library I had time to copy the pages on
Fiddington from VCH Gloucestershire Vol. 8. Here is a transcription
(pp. 177-179):

"Rowland Cole and his son Thomas were both living at Northway in 1623,
but in 1626 Henry Ferrers (created a baronet in 1628) had the freehold
of Cole's Place, which Thomas Ferrers held at his death in 1636.
Thomas's son and heir William was then a minor. The Ferrerses did not
have the whole of the Coles' estate ... Richard Kemble had in 1651
acquired lands in Fiddington from Sir Henry Ferrers, Bt., son of John
Ferrers of Fiddington. John Ferrers's father, Roger, who came from
Corsham (Wilts.), had married Margaret, daughter of Giles Badger of
Fiddington (fl. 1536), and was recorded in 1547 as a copyholder of the
Warwick manor of Fiddington and Natton, along with Christopher Kemble
who had succeeded to the holding of his father, Richard. John
Ferrers's younger brother, William (d. 1625), a citizen of London,
whose monument is in Ashchurch church, endowed charities in Ashchurch
and Tewkesbury."

The above information does match up to the Ferrers of Fiddington line
on the Tudor Place website. Apparently the source for Tudor Place (and
the VCH Gloucestershire entry above) was a pedigree (p. 59) in the 1623
Visitation of Gloucestershire. Another source VCH Glos. used was
Burke's Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies (1838), p. 195.

Unfortunately, the VCH Wiltshire series has not yet covered Chippenham
hundred, which is where Corsham is. Per the info on the Tudor Place
website, Roger Ferrers of Corsham who married Margaret Badger, was the
grandson of John Ferrers (1454-1485) of "Blunsden, Wiltshire," who
married Margaret Hungerford of Down Ampney.

So we're still not yet able to verify the marriage of Margaret
Hungerford to a John Ferrers, or determine, if there was one, how her
John Ferrers fit into the Ferrers of Groby or Chartley lines.

Cheers, ---------------Brad

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»