Difference between ab and ap
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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W David Samuelsen
Difference between ab and ap
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
W. David Samuelsen
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Gjest
Re: Difference between ab and ap
W David Samuelsen wrote:
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
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David Rorer
Re: Difference between ab and ap
<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138697140.087668.115500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
David Rorer
news:1138697140.087668.115500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
David Rorer
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Gjest
Re: Difference between ab and ap
David Rorer wrote:
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.
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CE Wood
Re: Difference between ab and ap
Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?
CE Wood
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?
CE Wood
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
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Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Difference between ab and ap
CE Wood wrote:
In whose English is 'h' a vowel?
taf
Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?
In whose English is 'h' a vowel?
taf
CE Wood
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
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Stewart Baldwin
Re: Difference between ab and ap
On 31 Jan 2006 00:45:40 -0800, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
As I understand it, this is true for modern Welsh. However, there are
numerous cases (e.g., during the wave of early Welsh immigration to
America) where "ap" can be found in front of names beginning with
vowels (e.g., ap Owen, ap Evan, etc.), although I assume (from the
fact that you don't see surnames like Powen, Pevan, etc.) that even
then it was pronounced like a "b".
Stewart Baldwin
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
As I understand it, this is true for modern Welsh. However, there are
numerous cases (e.g., during the wave of early Welsh immigration to
America) where "ap" can be found in front of names beginning with
vowels (e.g., ap Owen, ap Evan, etc.), although I assume (from the
fact that you don't see surnames like Powen, Pevan, etc.) that even
then it was pronounced like a "b".
Stewart Baldwin
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Carl Boyer
Re: Difference between ab and ap
I kept all Welsh names in Welsh in my Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans simply because the English are so inconsistent at spelling them. Of course in more recent years many Welsh had English names so they were kept in English. Carl Boyer of Santa Clarita
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
David Rorer wrote:
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.
---------------------------------
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mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
David Rorer wrote:
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.
---------------------------------
What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
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CE Wood
Re: Difference between ab and ap
Right. Sorry.
It's just that one uses "an" rather than "a" before the letter "h" for
ease of pronunciation in English. I assume the "ab" versus "ap" is for
the same reason, but since "b" and "p" are both hard sounds, there is
not the same need.
CE Wood
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
It's just that one uses "an" rather than "a" before the letter "h" for
ease of pronunciation in English. I assume the "ab" versus "ap" is for
the same reason, but since "b" and "p" are both hard sounds, there is
not the same need.
CE Wood
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
CE Wood wrote:
Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?
In whose English is 'h' a vowel?
taf
CE Wood
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?
W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels
eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.
as opposed to 'ap' before consonants
eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.
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R. Battle
Re: Difference between ab and ap
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, CE Wood wrote:
<snip>
The difference between "ap" and "ab" is only one of voicing; it represents
a process of voicing assimilation--the [p] becomes [b] between two vowels.
That could very well be why, as Stewart Baldwin noted, early Welsh
immigrants to America generally used the spelling "ap" regardless of its
actual pronunciation--that was how the word was spelled, regardless of its
actual pronunciation in context (rather like how we spell the English
plural ending "s" regardless of whether it's actually pronounced [s] or
[z]).
-Robert Battle
<snip>
It's just that one uses "an" rather than "a" before the letter "h" for
ease of pronunciation in English. I assume the "ab" versus "ap" is for
the same reason, but since "b" and "p" are both hard sounds, there is
not the same need.
snip
The difference between "ap" and "ab" is only one of voicing; it represents
a process of voicing assimilation--the [p] becomes [b] between two vowels.
That could very well be why, as Stewart Baldwin noted, early Welsh
immigrants to America generally used the spelling "ap" regardless of its
actual pronunciation--that was how the word was spelled, regardless of its
actual pronunciation in context (rather like how we spell the English
plural ending "s" regardless of whether it's actually pronounced [s] or
[z]).
-Robert Battle
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Gary Smith
Re: Difference between ab and ap
A single 'f' in Welsh is pronounced as a 'v'. They use a double 'f' (ff) for
the 'f' sound.To be pronounced 'ferch' it would need two 'f's. Since it is
spelled in Welsh with only one 'f'; it is always pronounced 'verch'. Ap, the
word for 'son of', it should always be spelled with a 'p' ('ap').
<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138738744.885771.32290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
the 'f' sound.To be pronounced 'ferch' it would need two 'f's. Since it is
spelled in Welsh with only one 'f'; it is always pronounced 'verch'. Ap, the
word for 'son of', it should always be spelled with a 'p' ('ap').
<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138738744.885771.32290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
David Rorer wrote:
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.