Difference between ab and ap

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W David Samuelsen

Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 31 jan 2006 07:27:02

What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen

Gjest

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jan 2006 09:45:40

W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels


eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.

David Rorer

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av David Rorer » 31 jan 2006 19:08:34

<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138697140.087668.115500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels

eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.

Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's

names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
David Rorer

Gjest

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jan 2006 21:19:04

David Rorer wrote:
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single

f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.

CE Wood

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av CE Wood » 31 jan 2006 21:44:35

Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?

CE Wood

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels

eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 31 jan 2006 23:26:38

CE Wood wrote:
Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?

In whose English is 'h' a vowel?

taf


CE Wood

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

W David Samuelsen wrote:

What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen

'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels

eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.


Stewart Baldwin

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 01 feb 2006 00:25:29

On 31 Jan 2006 00:45:40 -0800, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

W David Samuelsen wrote:
What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen
'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels

eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.

As I understand it, this is true for modern Welsh. However, there are
numerous cases (e.g., during the wave of early Welsh immigration to
America) where "ap" can be found in front of names beginning with
vowels (e.g., ap Owen, ap Evan, etc.), although I assume (from the
fact that you don't see surnames like Powen, Pevan, etc.) that even
then it was pronounced like a "b".

Stewart Baldwin

Carl Boyer

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Carl Boyer » 01 feb 2006 01:16:02

I kept all Welsh names in Welsh in my Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans simply because the English are so inconsistent at spelling them. Of course in more recent years many Welsh had English names so they were kept in English. Carl Boyer of Santa Clarita

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
David Rorer wrote:
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single

f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.





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CE Wood

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av CE Wood » 01 feb 2006 01:41:28

Right. Sorry.

It's just that one uses "an" rather than "a" before the letter "h" for
ease of pronunciation in English. I assume the "ab" versus "ap" is for
the same reason, but since "b" and "p" are both hard sounds, there is
not the same need.

CE Wood


Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
CE Wood wrote:
Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"?

In whose English is 'h' a vowel?

taf


CE Wood

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

W David Samuelsen wrote:

What's the difference of ab and ap in Welsh records?

W. David Samuelsen

'ab' is used before names beginning with vowels

eg, ab Owen (to Bowen), ab Evan (Bevan) etc.

as opposed to 'ap' before consonants

eg, ap Hywel (Powell), ap Richard (Pritchard) etc.


R. Battle

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av R. Battle » 01 feb 2006 03:27:05

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, CE Wood wrote:
<snip>
It's just that one uses "an" rather than "a" before the letter "h" for
ease of pronunciation in English. I assume the "ab" versus "ap" is for
the same reason, but since "b" and "p" are both hard sounds, there is
not the same need.
snip


The difference between "ap" and "ab" is only one of voicing; it represents
a process of voicing assimilation--the [p] becomes [b] between two vowels.
That could very well be why, as Stewart Baldwin noted, early Welsh
immigrants to America generally used the spelling "ap" regardless of its
actual pronunciation--that was how the word was spelled, regardless of its
actual pronunciation in context (rather like how we spell the English
plural ending "s" regardless of whether it's actually pronounced [s] or
[z]).

-Robert Battle

Gary Smith

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Gary Smith » 01 feb 2006 05:07:14

A single 'f' in Welsh is pronounced as a 'v'. They use a double 'f' (ff) for
the 'f' sound.To be pronounced 'ferch' it would need two 'f's. Since it is
spelled in Welsh with only one 'f'; it is always pronounced 'verch'. Ap, the
word for 'son of', it should always be spelled with a 'p' ('ap').

<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138738744.885771.32290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
David Rorer wrote:
Does the same rule apply to the usage of "verch" and "ferch" in women's
names or is there some other rule for those prefixes?
That's to do with pronunciation; in Welsh 'ferch' is used, but a single
f is pronounced v and so verch is the 'anglicised' spelling. Thus
Catrin ferch Madog ap Bleddyn could be anglicised to Catherine verch
Madoc ap Blethyn.

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