will correct Ida claim to be mother of him?

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W David Samuelsen

will correct Ida claim to be mother of him?

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 30 jan 2006 02:58:01

Who is real mother of Hugh Bigod, born about 1185, died
Feb 1224/1225, son of Roger Bigod, who died bef 2 Aug 1221

Hugh (1185), wife Maud Marshal, parents of isabel Bigod, wife of John
Fitz Geoffrey

who is the real mother?
Ida de Toeni (Tony, Toni), born about 1152, dau of Ralph de Toeni and
Margaret de Beaumont, concubine of Henry II Curtmantle, King of England

or

Ida (Isabel) de Planatagent, dau of Hamelin Plantagent and Isabel de Warenne

???

Sooner these are cleared up with evidentary statements, the better it is
for all of us.

W. David Samuelsen

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: will correct Ida claim to be mother of him?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 30 jan 2006 03:12:57

In message of 30 Jan, dsam@sampubco.com (W David Samuelsen) wrote:

Who is real mother of Hugh Bigod, born about 1185, died
Feb 1224/1225, son of Roger Bigod, who died bef 2 Aug 1221

Hugh (1185), wife Maud Marshal, parents of isabel Bigod, wife of John
Fitz Geoffrey

who is the real mother?

Ida. Anything more is speculation, though she is now known to be, ex
inform Ray Phair, the mother also of William Longspee.

Ida de Toeni (Tony, Toni), born about 1152, dau of Ralph de Toeni and
Margaret de Beaumont, concubine of Henry II Curtmantle, King of England

or

Ida (Isabel) de Planatagent, dau of Hamelin Plantagent and Isabel de Warenne

???

Sooner these are cleared up with evidentary statements, the better it is
for all of us.

This is the fun and the challenge of medieval, and indeed all genealogy,
that of finding the best evidence you can. But you have to define your
personal standards. Will you accept the evidence of the likes of an
internet site, or of Burke's volumes, or of the likes of CP, or the
compendiums of abstracts of surviving documents? Or do you really want
to get, at the very least, a photocopy of relevant documents for
yourself?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Chris Phillips

Re: will correct Ida claim to be mother of him?

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 30 jan 2006 10:24:22

W David Samuelsen wrote:
Who is real mother of Hugh Bigod, born about 1185, died
Feb 1224/1225, son of Roger Bigod, who died bef 2 Aug 1221

Tim Powys-Lybbe replied:
Ida. Anything more is speculation, though she is now known to be, ex
inform Ray Phair, the mother also of William Longspee.


Though as Linda Jack pointed out in September 2005, there is record evidence
to support the old identification of her as a Tony, which is mentioned in
Marc Morris's recent book, "The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the Thirteenth
Century" (Boydell, 2005). No explicit evidence of her parentage, though.

Chris Phillips

John P. Ravilious

Re: will correct Ida claim to be mother of him?

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 31 jan 2006 03:36:15

Monday, 30 January, 2006


Dear David, Tim, Chris, et al.,

The evidence that the mother of Hugh le Bigod (d. bef 18 Feb
1224/5) was Ida de Tony (and not an Ida de Warenne, or 'Plantagenet')
is reasonably persuasive:

1. Leaving aside past discussions accessible in the SGM archives,
Ralph le Bigod (brother of Hugh) was identified by Ray Phair as the
'brother' [actually half-brother] of William Longespee, earl of
Salisbury, from the French account of the prisoners taken at the Battle
of Bouvines in 1214. This provides sound evidence that his mother Ida,
countess of Norfolk, was also the mother of William Longespee by King
Henry II.

2. If this Ida had been the daughter of Hamelin, earl of Warenne
as you mentioned, she would have been Henry II's niece (or half-niece
if you prefer).

A. There is no known daughter Ida of the marriage of Hamelin
and Isabel de Warenne.

B. The incest between Henry II and a niece would hardly have
gone unnoticed by the many chroniclers of the era.

C. Hamelin was a solid supporter of Henry, during the dire
times of the 1173 rebellion, and throughout his reign (he is found
witnessing at least one charter of Henry II in the Leiston chartulary
ca. 1185-1189). He evidently tolerated one daughter having been
ravished by his nephew John (she was the mother of Richard de Warenne,
of the 'Chilham' branch of the family); such an act by his own brother
would undoubtedly have left a different trail in the records of 12th
century England.

Cheers,

John




W David Samuelsen wrote:
Who is real mother of Hugh Bigod, born about 1185, died
Feb 1224/1225, son of Roger Bigod, who died bef 2 Aug 1221

Hugh (1185), wife Maud Marshal, parents of isabel Bigod, wife of John
Fitz Geoffrey

who is the real mother?
Ida de Toeni (Tony, Toni), born about 1152, dau of Ralph de Toeni and
Margaret de Beaumont, concubine of Henry II Curtmantle, King of England

or

Ida (Isabel) de Planatagent, dau of Hamelin Plantagent and Isabel de Warenne

???

Sooner these are cleared up with evidentary statements, the better it is
for all of us.

W. David Samuelsen

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