Tesserae gentilitiae
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John P. DuLong
Tesserae gentilitiae
Hello Folks,
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin?
I have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even
close?
Apparently, these words are used in the title of Silvester Petra
Sancta's second treatise on heraldry (_Tesserae Gentilitiae ex legibus
Fecialium descriptae_ published in Rome in 1638).
Barton uses this term in his 1788 essay on heraldry in America.
Any help translating this term would be appreciated.
JP
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin?
I have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even
close?
Apparently, these words are used in the title of Silvester Petra
Sancta's second treatise on heraldry (_Tesserae Gentilitiae ex legibus
Fecialium descriptae_ published in Rome in 1638).
Barton uses this term in his 1788 essay on heraldry in America.
Any help translating this term would be appreciated.
JP
-
George Lucki
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"John P. DuLong" <dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in message
news:n6KdnQ6BifTU2EHeRVn-jA@comcast.com...
I would be looking at something like arms of the aristocracy or ensigns of
nobility.
George Lucki
news:n6KdnQ6BifTU2EHeRVn-jA@comcast.com...
Hello Folks,
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin? I
have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even close?
Apparently, these words are used in the title of Silvester Petra Sancta's
second treatise on heraldry (_Tesserae Gentilitiae ex legibus Fecialium
descriptae_ published in Rome in 1638).
Barton uses this term in his 1788 essay on heraldry in America.
Any help translating this term would be appreciated.
JP
I would be looking at something like arms of the aristocracy or ensigns of
nobility.
George Lucki
-
Odysseus
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"John P. DuLong" wrote:
Maybe overly literal or classical: something like "familial ensigns
(or insignia)" might be more natural in an early-modern English title.
--
Odysseus
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin?
I have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even
close?
Maybe overly literal or classical: something like "familial ensigns
(or insignia)" might be more natural in an early-modern English title.
--
Odysseus
-
Chris Pitt Lewis
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In message <43DC736D.4D43C95D@yahoo-dot.ca>, Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> writes
"coat of arms" - Latham, Revised Medieval Latin Word List from British
and Irish sources quotes it in that sense from 1654.
Gentilitius or gentilicius is more complicated - it is an adjective
whose meaning is "pertaining to a gens", and the primary meaning of gens
is "family" or "clan" depending on context. But gens can also be used in
the post classical and medieval periods in the sense of "nation", and
so, by extension, gentiles, pagans or just foreigners. And "gentilis" is
used to mean "of gentle birth", so I suppose it would be possible to use
"gentilitius" in a similar sense.
So probably "family", but you may need to look at the contents of the
book to check that it is not intended in some other sense.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> writes
"John P. DuLong" wrote:
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin?
I have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even
close?
Maybe overly literal or classical: something like "familial ensigns
(or insignia)" might be more natural in an early-modern English title.
Or just "family coats of arms". Tessera can be used in the sense of
"coat of arms" - Latham, Revised Medieval Latin Word List from British
and Irish sources quotes it in that sense from 1654.
Gentilitius or gentilicius is more complicated - it is an adjective
whose meaning is "pertaining to a gens", and the primary meaning of gens
is "family" or "clan" depending on context. But gens can also be used in
the post classical and medieval periods in the sense of "nation", and
so, by extension, gentiles, pagans or just foreigners. And "gentilis" is
used to mean "of gentle birth", so I suppose it would be possible to use
"gentilitius" in a similar sense.
So probably "family", but you may need to look at the contents of the
book to check that it is not intended in some other sense.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"Tesserae gentilitiae" is one of the terms used to mark 'coat of arms',
and it is very often used in Papal briefs of nobility during XV-XVII
c. Others names: Arma Gentilitia, Insignia Gentilitia, etc. By the Jus
Imaginum just nobles ( including patrizians and equestrian class) have
the right to use Coat of Arms because it is a mark of the rightful
bearing of a weapons. Ignobiles (plebeians, commoners) has the right
bears Insignia Exteriora (exterior Heraldic Devise, that is the
personal plebian sign or mark of profession).
and it is very often used in Papal briefs of nobility during XV-XVII
c. Others names: Arma Gentilitia, Insignia Gentilitia, etc. By the Jus
Imaginum just nobles ( including patrizians and equestrian class) have
the right to use Coat of Arms because it is a mark of the rightful
bearing of a weapons. Ignobiles (plebeians, commoners) has the right
bears Insignia Exteriora (exterior Heraldic Devise, that is the
personal plebian sign or mark of profession).
-
Francois R. Velde
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Chris Pitt Lewis <chris@cjpl.demon.co.uk> os suum:
I think that's the right translation. See this passage in George Mackenzie's
Science of Herauldry, 1680 (p. 1):
"Arms may be defin'd to be Marks of Hereditary honour, given or authorized by
some Supream Power, to gratify the Bearer, or distinguish Families.
The first name given to such Bearings, was, Imagines, [quote of Pliny].
The Grecians called them, apasphragismata. [...] The Civilians call them,
Insignia; [quote from Digest]. But Bart[olus] is tax'd for, insigniis &
insigniorum; whereas the true Latine is, insignibus & insignium, us'd in
the former texts. Some call them, Insignia Armorum, the Latine of which
is also doubted by Tiraquel. Others call them, Tesserae Gentilitiae; and
in the civil Law they are called, Tituli [quote from Code and Bartolus.]
The Germans call them Wappen, or Clenodia: The Italians, Carmas: The French,
Armoiries: The Scots and English, Arms; from the Latine, Arma, which was us'd
in this sense even amongst the Romans, Virgil,
Et genti nomen dedit, armáque fixit Troiae."
Nisbet cites Imhoff as using the phrase rather routinely: "tessera
<family> gentilitia" the arms of the family of <>.
Innes of Learney altered the phrase to "tesserae nobilitatis", perhaps
a (voluntary?) confusion between gens, family and gentility.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
In message <43DC736D.4D43C95D@yahoo-dot.ca>, Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> writes
"John P. DuLong" wrote:
Would anyone out there know what "Tesserae gentilitiae" means in Latin?
I have translated it as a "token of clan membership." Is this even
close?
Maybe overly literal or classical: something like "familial ensigns
(or insignia)" might be more natural in an early-modern English title.
Or just "family coats of arms".
I think that's the right translation. See this passage in George Mackenzie's
Science of Herauldry, 1680 (p. 1):
"Arms may be defin'd to be Marks of Hereditary honour, given or authorized by
some Supream Power, to gratify the Bearer, or distinguish Families.
The first name given to such Bearings, was, Imagines, [quote of Pliny].
The Grecians called them, apasphragismata. [...] The Civilians call them,
Insignia; [quote from Digest]. But Bart[olus] is tax'd for, insigniis &
insigniorum; whereas the true Latine is, insignibus & insignium, us'd in
the former texts. Some call them, Insignia Armorum, the Latine of which
is also doubted by Tiraquel. Others call them, Tesserae Gentilitiae; and
in the civil Law they are called, Tituli [quote from Code and Bartolus.]
The Germans call them Wappen, or Clenodia: The Italians, Carmas: The French,
Armoiries: The Scots and English, Arms; from the Latine, Arma, which was us'd
in this sense even amongst the Romans, Virgil,
Et genti nomen dedit, armáque fixit Troiae."
Nisbet cites Imhoff as using the phrase rather routinely: "tessera
<family> gentilitia" the arms of the family of <>.
Innes of Learney altered the phrase to "tesserae nobilitatis", perhaps
a (voluntary?) confusion between gens, family and gentility.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Francois R. Velde wrote:
Innes was correct. The meaning "gentilitiae" is nothing to do with
simple family
(gens) meaning, it means relation to the noble class of society. In
Latin the concept 'gentilitae' it is synonymous to 'nobilitae' and
never officially used as an simple mark of family relation.
About Nisbett opinion:
Nisbett,System of Heraldry, Chap.II, p.9. : "Hereditary mark of honour
,
regularily composed of certain tinctures and figures, granted or
authorised by sovereigns, for distinguishing, differencing, and
illustrating persons, families and communities." " The words granted or
authorised by sovereigns exclude all arbitrary marks and signs; such as
thouse assumed by ignoble at their own pleasure , which can not be
called ensigns of honour, however like to arms they may seem"....
"..called arms, coat of arms and armorial ensigns; by French armories;
and in Latin, Arms Gentilitia, Tesserae Gentilitae..."
Innes of Learney altered the phrase to "tesserae nobilitatis", perhaps
a (voluntary?) confusion between gens, family and gentility.
Innes was correct. The meaning "gentilitiae" is nothing to do with
simple family
(gens) meaning, it means relation to the noble class of society. In
Latin the concept 'gentilitae' it is synonymous to 'nobilitae' and
never officially used as an simple mark of family relation.
About Nisbett opinion:
Nisbett,System of Heraldry, Chap.II, p.9. : "Hereditary mark of honour
,
regularily composed of certain tinctures and figures, granted or
authorised by sovereigns, for distinguishing, differencing, and
illustrating persons, families and communities." " The words granted or
authorised by sovereigns exclude all arbitrary marks and signs; such as
thouse assumed by ignoble at their own pleasure , which can not be
called ensigns of honour, however like to arms they may seem"....
"..called arms, coat of arms and armorial ensigns; by French armories;
and in Latin, Arms Gentilitia, Tesserae Gentilitae..."
-
Francois R. Velde
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Andrew <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> os suum:
Of course it does, as Chris showed.
What Latin are you talking about? For starters, the form "nobilitae"
does not exist. Check any standard Latin dictionary, e.g. Lewis and
Short (available online) for a definition: "the relationship of those
who belong to the same gens; relatives bearing the same name, kindred."
recte: arma gentilita, tesserae gentilitiae.
Nisbett's opinion is correct for Scottish heraldry in the 18th c., not
for heraldry in other countries where the phrase "tesserae gentilitiae"
was used (Petra Sancta's treatise on heraldry, published in Rome, was
titled "tesserae gentilitiae".)
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Francois R. Velde wrote:
Innes of Learney altered the phrase to "tesserae nobilitatis", perhaps
a (voluntary?) confusion between gens, family and gentility.
Innes was correct. The meaning "gentilitiae" is nothing to do with
simple family
(gens) meaning, it means relation to the noble class of society.
Of course it does, as Chris showed.
In
Latin the concept 'gentilitae' it is synonymous to 'nobilitae' and
never officially used as an simple mark of family relation.
What Latin are you talking about? For starters, the form "nobilitae"
does not exist. Check any standard Latin dictionary, e.g. Lewis and
Short (available online) for a definition: "the relationship of those
who belong to the same gens; relatives bearing the same name, kindred."
About Nisbett opinion:
Nisbett,System of Heraldry, Chap.II, p.9. : "Hereditary mark of honour,
regularily composed of certain tinctures and figures, granted or
authorised by sovereigns, for distinguishing, differencing, and
illustrating persons, families and communities." " The words granted or
authorised by sovereigns exclude all arbitrary marks and signs; such as
thouse assumed by ignoble at their own pleasure , which can not be
called ensigns of honour, however like to arms they may seem"....
"..called arms, coat of arms and armorial ensigns; by French armories;
and in Latin, Arms Gentilitia, Tesserae Gentilitae..."
recte: arma gentilita, tesserae gentilitiae.
Nisbett's opinion is correct for Scottish heraldry in the 18th c., not
for heraldry in other countries where the phrase "tesserae gentilitiae"
was used (Petra Sancta's treatise on heraldry, published in Rome, was
titled "tesserae gentilitiae".)
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
It was my typing error.I meant "nobilitatis". Innes was quite right.
In Latin the concept 'gentilitae' it is synonymous to 'nobilitatis'
and never, again, never officially used as an simple mark of family
relation. It was used just unofficially to show "the relationship of
those who belong to the same gens; relatives bearing the same name,
kindred.", but never in official documentatin, such a Diploma, Bull, or
Brevet, where it always means a relation to the noble class of society
(and not to plebean (commoners) family). Tesserae Gentilitae is just a
'coat of arms' ( ensigns armorial, as ensigns of nobility) and nothing
to do with "family coat of arms". You may apply the world 'Gentlemen'
to anybody you wish as personal mark of respect, but it does not create
anybody you wish a Gentlemen for official purpouses in a Society with
social definition.
In Latin the concept 'gentilitae' it is synonymous to 'nobilitatis'
and never, again, never officially used as an simple mark of family
relation. It was used just unofficially to show "the relationship of
those who belong to the same gens; relatives bearing the same name,
kindred.", but never in official documentatin, such a Diploma, Bull, or
Brevet, where it always means a relation to the noble class of society
(and not to plebean (commoners) family). Tesserae Gentilitae is just a
'coat of arms' ( ensigns armorial, as ensigns of nobility) and nothing
to do with "family coat of arms". You may apply the world 'Gentlemen'
to anybody you wish as personal mark of respect, but it does not create
anybody you wish a Gentlemen for official purpouses in a Society with
social definition.
-
Francois R. Velde
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Andrew <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> os suum:
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
You may apply the world 'Gentlemen'
to anybody you wish as personal mark of respect, but it does not create
anybody you wish a Gentlemen for official purpouses in a Society with
social definition.
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
Sorry, but this sentention is a rubbish. You may read and pay an
attention on who is considered of the official category a 'Gentlemen'
in the Society with social definition. There are good sources:
Debrett's, Burke's, Nisbett, Blankton, etc. An Indian ice-cream trader
from the corner of the street who has 2 class of lesser education is
not a Gentlemen for official purposes (with only one exception: if he
bear a coat of arms granted by virtue of Royal Prerogative he is a
Gentlemen).
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In message of 30 Jan, "Andrew" <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
This raises the old conundrum. Which comes first the chicken or the
egg? You say that if you are an armiger then you are automatically
a gentleman. But I have seen visitations where people were disclaimed
from using their arms on the grounds that they were not gentlemen.
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
Sorry, but this sentention is a rubbish. You may read and pay an
attention on who is considered of the official category a 'Gentlemen'
in the Society with social definition. There are good sources:
Debrett's, Burke's, Nisbett, Blankton, etc. An Indian ice-cream trader
from the corner of the street who has 2 class of lesser education is
not a Gentlemen for official purposes (with only one exception: if he
bear a coat of arms granted by virtue of Royal Prerogative he is a
Gentlemen).
This raises the old conundrum. Which comes first the chicken or the
egg? You say that if you are an armiger then you are automatically
a gentleman. But I have seen visitations where people were disclaimed
from using their arms on the grounds that they were not gentlemen.
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Andrew Chaplin
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"Andrew" <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138583853.153245.194100@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Why did you bring nationality into it? Could you not have said "An
ice-cream trader"?
--
Andrew Chaplin
A Gentleman, if only for drill purposes, since 1978
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
news:1138583853.153245.194100@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
Sorry, but this sentention is a rubbish. You may read and pay an
attention on who is considered of the official category a
'Gentlemen'
in the Society with social definition. There are good sources:
Debrett's, Burke's, Nisbett, Blankton, etc.
from the corner of the street who has 2 class of lesser education
is
not a Gentlemen for official purposes (with only one exception: if
he
bear a coat of arms granted by virtue of Royal Prerogative he is a
Gentlemen).
Why did you bring nationality into it? Could you not have said "An
ice-cream trader"?
--
Andrew Chaplin
A Gentleman, if only for drill purposes, since 1978
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
I told that I told. I told " indian ise-cream trader", as well I may
to tolk about "nigerian ise-cream trader", "american ise-cream trader"
"european ise-cream trader", etc. What is a problem???
Certainly, only for drill purposes, no doubt.
to tolk about "nigerian ise-cream trader", "american ise-cream trader"
"european ise-cream trader", etc. What is a problem???
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Certainly, only for drill purposes, no doubt.
-
Andrew Chaplin
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"Andrew" <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138587982.410768.234230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It smacks of bigotry.
The order, "Get your finger out!" is from drill for the 32 pounder
muzzle-loading cannon and its miniature version, and is given
immediately before the order to fire. On receipt of the former order,
the Number 2, who has been in the "Protect" position with his hand
covering the vent since the gun was primed, removes his hand
preparatory to applying the portfire to the touch hole.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
news:1138587982.410768.234230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I told that I told. I told " indian ise-cream trader", as well I
may
to tolk about "nigerian ise-cream trader", "american ise-cream
trader"
"european ise-cream trader", etc. What is a problem???
It smacks of bigotry.
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger."
out.)
Certainly, only for drill purposes, no doubt.
The order, "Get your finger out!" is from drill for the 32 pounder
muzzle-loading cannon and its miniature version, and is given
immediately before the order to fire. On receipt of the former order,
the Number 2, who has been in the "Protect" position with his hand
covering the vent since the gun was primed, removes his hand
preparatory to applying the portfire to the touch hole.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
-
Odysseus
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
My grandfather used to say that a gentleman is someone who uses a
butter-knife when dining alone.
--
Odysseus
snip
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
My grandfather used to say that a gentleman is someone who uses a
butter-knife when dining alone.
--
Odysseus
-
Francois R. Velde
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Andrew <kirklistoun@yahoo.co.uk> os suum:
I don't have the patience to hold a discussion with someone who
writes in this manner. We've had this discussion on rec.heraldry long
before you came along, I've laid out my arguments (with citations from
references a little more serious than Debrett's) on my web site.
The citation from Mackenzie makes clear that "tesserae gentilitiae"
means nothing more than family coats of arms. Mr. Dulong can decide
on his own the translation of a Latin phrase used by a 17th c. Italian
jesuit should be guided by the fabrications of a 20th c. Scottish king
of arms. Unless you have something substantial and constructive to add
(not to mention polite), that's all I have to say.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Actually, there is no other definition of a gentleman, for official
purposes, than being called by everyone a gentleman.
Sorry, but this sentention is a rubbish. You may read and pay an
attention on who is considered of the official category a 'Gentlemen'
in the Society with social definition. There are good sources:
Debrett's, Burke's, Nisbett, Blankton, etc. An Indian ice-cream trader
from the corner of the street who has 2 class of lesser education is
not a Gentlemen for official purposes (with only one exception: if he
bear a coat of arms granted by virtue of Royal Prerogative he is a
Gentlemen).
I don't have the patience to hold a discussion with someone who
writes in this manner. We've had this discussion on rec.heraldry long
before you came along, I've laid out my arguments (with citations from
references a little more serious than Debrett's) on my web site.
The citation from Mackenzie makes clear that "tesserae gentilitiae"
means nothing more than family coats of arms. Mr. Dulong can decide
on his own the translation of a Latin phrase used by a 17th c. Italian
jesuit should be guided by the fabrications of a 20th c. Scottish king
of arms. Unless you have something substantial and constructive to add
(not to mention polite), that's all I have to say.
--
François R. Velde
velde@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Ok. Again...Read below. It is nothing to do with " 20th c. Scottish
king
of arms". ( you probably means Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, who was a
much more learned and recognised expert in these matters then anybody
from here or even alltogether from this board)
Nisbett,System of Heraldry, Chap.II, p.9. : "Hereditary mark of honour,
regularily composed of certain tinctures and figures, granted or
authorised by sovereigns, for distinguishing, differencing, and
illustrating persons, families and communities." " The words granted or
authorised by sovereigns exclude all arbitrary marks and signs; such as
thouse assumed by ignoble at their own pleasure , which can not be
called ensigns of honour, however like to arms they may seem"....
"..called arms, coat of arms and armorial ensigns; by French armories;
and in Latin, Arma Gentilitia, Tesserae Gentilitae..."
Read below:
"illustrating Persons, Families and Communities"
Where you find just "family coat of arms"?
Tesserae Gentilitae is just simple meant a "coat of arms" ( as ensigns
of honour), no any meaning.
About Debrett's...you may be know that a Gentlemen is a special social
status (allowed for certain categories) within the UK, you may find it
in the Table of Precedence.
king
of arms". ( you probably means Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, who was a
much more learned and recognised expert in these matters then anybody
from here or even alltogether from this board)
Nisbett,System of Heraldry, Chap.II, p.9. : "Hereditary mark of honour,
regularily composed of certain tinctures and figures, granted or
authorised by sovereigns, for distinguishing, differencing, and
illustrating persons, families and communities." " The words granted or
authorised by sovereigns exclude all arbitrary marks and signs; such as
thouse assumed by ignoble at their own pleasure , which can not be
called ensigns of honour, however like to arms they may seem"....
"..called arms, coat of arms and armorial ensigns; by French armories;
and in Latin, Arma Gentilitia, Tesserae Gentilitae..."
Read below:
"illustrating Persons, Families and Communities"
Where you find just "family coat of arms"?
Tesserae Gentilitae is just simple meant a "coat of arms" ( as ensigns
of honour), no any meaning.
About Debrett's...you may be know that a Gentlemen is a special social
status (allowed for certain categories) within the UK, you may find it
in the Table of Precedence.
-
Don Aitken
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:49:24 GMT, Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
Or alternatively, a gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes,
but doesn't. You can substitute your own unfavorite musical instrument
in this saying!
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
snip
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
My grandfather used to say that a gentleman is someone who uses a
butter-knife when dining alone.
Or alternatively, a gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes,
but doesn't. You can substitute your own unfavorite musical instrument
in this saying!
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
-
Andrew Chaplin
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
"Don Aitken" <don-aitken@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:2rfst193j7jr4vjqjdlpvar3vhpnbl0hj0@4ax.com...
Gosh, that standard was easily met. Mind you, I had help, the table was
already set. :^)
A gentleman is one who does not contribute to the discomfort of others, even
when he is telling them how disappointed in them he is or when he has to
sack them.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
news:2rfst193j7jr4vjqjdlpvar3vhpnbl0hj0@4ax.com...
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:49:24 GMT, Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
snip
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
My grandfather used to say that a gentleman is someone who uses a
butter-knife when dining alone.
Gosh, that standard was easily met. Mind you, I had help, the table was
already set. :^)
Or alternatively, a gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes,
but doesn't. You can substitute your own unfavorite musical instrument
in this saying!
A gentleman is one who does not contribute to the discomfort of others, even
when he is telling them how disappointed in them he is or when he has to
sack them.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
-
Joseph McMillan
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Andrew wrote:
Yes: as the last entry. Making it synonymous with "everyone else."
There was a time when being described in a legal document as, "John
Doe, gentleman" was evidence of a status higher than that of the
riffraff. Not any more, and not for a long time.
Joseph McMillan
About Debrett's...you may be know that a Gentlemen is a special social
status (allowed for certain categories) within the UK, you may find it
in the Table of Precedence.
Yes: as the last entry. Making it synonymous with "everyone else."
There was a time when being described in a legal document as, "John
Doe, gentleman" was evidence of a status higher than that of the
riffraff. Not any more, and not for a long time.
Joseph McMillan
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Joseph McMillan wrote:
Again and again.... May be is enough to put such a passage: bla, bla,
Gentlemen is nobody, bla.....assuming arms is honest procedure, bla,
bla, etc....
Perhaps you wrongly imagine yourself that nobody understand, that such
a passage against granting arms and Gentility (noblesse, etc) itself
especially directed to put in the mind of the forumers such a creasy
idea about the status of assumed heraldic picture = status of legally
granted arms (therefore such a passage directed to defend imaginary
position about self-assuming heraldic devise are is a "coat of arms" as
well). Really, such a passage against gentility is ridiculous.
A Gentleman - is a Gentleman. Not an "everyone else".
There was a time when being described in a legal document as, "John
Doe, gentleman" was evidence of a status higher than that of the
riffraff. Not any more, and not for a long time.
Again and again.... May be is enough to put such a passage: bla, bla,
Gentlemen is nobody, bla.....assuming arms is honest procedure, bla,
bla, etc....
Perhaps you wrongly imagine yourself that nobody understand, that such
a passage against granting arms and Gentility (noblesse, etc) itself
especially directed to put in the mind of the forumers such a creasy
idea about the status of assumed heraldic picture = status of legally
granted arms (therefore such a passage directed to defend imaginary
position about self-assuming heraldic devise are is a "coat of arms" as
well). Really, such a passage against gentility is ridiculous.
A Gentleman - is a Gentleman. Not an "everyone else".
-
Joseph McMillan
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Andrew wrote:
Talk about blah,blah, blah! If you're going to keep asserting that no
one can be a gentleman (in England) without a grant of arms, then
kindly present at least some shred of evidence that this is the
*current* position of any modern English authority. And since you've
tied this issue to the order of precedence, why don't you present
evidence that Buckingham Palace, the FCO, or any other plausibly
authoritative institution differentiates between armigers and others in
assigning precedence at official events?
OK. So under what category does everyone else fall in the order of
precedence, if not gentlemen?
Again and again.... May be is enough to put such a passage: bla, bla,
Gentlemen is nobody, bla.....assuming arms is honest procedure, bla,
bla, etc....
Perhaps you wrongly imagine yourself that nobody understand, that such
a passage against granting arms and Gentility (noblesse, etc) itself
especially directed to put in the mind of the forumers such a creasy
idea about the status of assumed heraldic picture = status of legally
granted arms (therefore such a passage directed to defend imaginary
position about self-assuming heraldic devise are is a "coat of arms" as
well). Really, such a passage against gentility is ridiculous.
Talk about blah,blah, blah! If you're going to keep asserting that no
one can be a gentleman (in England) without a grant of arms, then
kindly present at least some shred of evidence that this is the
*current* position of any modern English authority. And since you've
tied this issue to the order of precedence, why don't you present
evidence that Buckingham Palace, the FCO, or any other plausibly
authoritative institution differentiates between armigers and others in
assigning precedence at official events?
A Gentleman - is a Gentleman. Not an "everyone else".
OK. So under what category does everyone else fall in the order of
precedence, if not gentlemen?
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Joseph McMillan wrote:
To the category of commoners (anyone who is not a Sovereign and who is
not belongs to nobility (a peerage, if England observed) and
gentility). Formerly, it was discribed as yeomen and servants.
OK. So under what category does everyone else fall in the order of
precedence, if not gentlemen?
To the category of commoners (anyone who is not a Sovereign and who is
not belongs to nobility (a peerage, if England observed) and
gentility). Formerly, it was discribed as yeomen and servants.
-
Derek Howard
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Andrew wrote:
I am sure you are aware that in reality in England commoners are all
those other than titled peers. Some are proud of it, take for instance
Winston Churchill, a commoner despite being at various times Prime
Minister, Privy Councillor, Knight of the Garter, Nobel Prize winner,
Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, all of which would have made him
entitled to the status of gentleman. Oh, and of course he was
armigerous.
For those on this forum who are unaware, you and I have discussed your
views on the status of armigerous gentleman equating to nobilty, etc.
on the Heraldry Society of Scotland Forum so perhaps I need not list
here the arguments I have raised to your position, they can be read at
<http://scotshistoryonline.co.uk/HSSforum/viewtopic.php?t=1359&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0>
by those that log on.
Derek Howard
Joseph McMillan wrote:
OK. So under what category does everyone else fall in the order of
precedence, if not gentlemen?
To the category of commoners (anyone who is not a Sovereign and who is
not belongs to nobility (a peerage, if England observed) and
gentility). Formerly, it was discribed as yeomen and servants.
I am sure you are aware that in reality in England commoners are all
those other than titled peers. Some are proud of it, take for instance
Winston Churchill, a commoner despite being at various times Prime
Minister, Privy Councillor, Knight of the Garter, Nobel Prize winner,
Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, all of which would have made him
entitled to the status of gentleman. Oh, and of course he was
armigerous.
For those on this forum who are unaware, you and I have discussed your
views on the status of armigerous gentleman equating to nobilty, etc.
on the Heraldry Society of Scotland Forum so perhaps I need not list
here the arguments I have raised to your position, they can be read at
<http://scotshistoryonline.co.uk/HSSforum/viewtopic.php?t=1359&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0>
by those that log on.
Derek Howard
-
Andrew
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Derek Howard wrote:
May be is enough :He was of ancient noble family.
May be you consider an untitled member of the Royal Family under the
term of "commoner". This is your position, not mine. To be honest it is
nothing to do with "reality".
The Encyclopædia Britannica: "a gentleman is one, who without any
title, bears a coat of arms, or whose ancestors have been freemen".
«All above the rank of yeomen".
The rank of Gentlemen (nobiles minores) is a social status higher then
a simple Commoner (ignoble, sine nobilitatis) who does not bear such a
status.
For example, Solicitors (not barristers- in -law, because they are
Esquires ex-officio) Commissioned officers below the rank stated under
the description of esquire are given the rank of Gentlemen.
I am sure you are aware that in reality in England commoners are all
those other than titled peers. Some are proud of it, take for instance
Winston Churchill, a commoner despite being at various times Prime
Minister, Privy Councillor, Knight of the Garter, Nobel Prize winner,
Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, all of which would have made him
entitled to the status of gentleman. Oh, and of course he was
armigerous.
May be is enough :He was of ancient noble family.
May be you consider an untitled member of the Royal Family under the
term of "commoner". This is your position, not mine. To be honest it is
nothing to do with "reality".
The Encyclopædia Britannica: "a gentleman is one, who without any
title, bears a coat of arms, or whose ancestors have been freemen".
«All above the rank of yeomen".
The rank of Gentlemen (nobiles minores) is a social status higher then
a simple Commoner (ignoble, sine nobilitatis) who does not bear such a
status.
For example, Solicitors (not barristers- in -law, because they are
Esquires ex-officio) Commissioned officers below the rank stated under
the description of esquire are given the rank of Gentlemen.
-
Anton Sherwood
Re: Tesserae gentilitiae
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
I don't think being a gent is susceptible to definition.
Odysseus wrote:
My grandfather used to say that a gentleman is someone who uses a
butter-knife when dining alone.
Oscar Wilde, of course, said a gentleman is one who never
unintentionally gives offense.
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
"How'd ya like to climb this high *without* no mountain?" --Porky Pine