CP error? or is ES wrong ?

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Leo van de Pas

CP error? or is ES wrong ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jan 2006 02:46:02

One kind lady asked me a question and I found I had the wife of Thomas I, Count of Savoie as Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven has it, and that turned out to have been outdated when looking at ES Schwennicke. As I was looking at this couple, I realised I had only five of their 17 children in my system and started adding them.

I found (probably wrong) a daughter
Avita (no birth or death info) in 1237 she married Baldwin de Revieres, Earl of Devonshire, he died 13 November 1261
Avita is shown to be a sister of Beatrice who about 1216 married the Count of Provence and is mother of Eleanor wife of Henry III, King of England. Eleanor married (aged about 19) in 1236.

CP Volume IV pages 319 and onwards shows a different relationship.
Baldwin de Reviers, Earl of Devon, Lord of the Isle of Wight, born 1 January 1235/6, he died before 13 September 1262 and in 1257 had married Margaret (first cousin of Queen Eleanor) daughter of count Thomas, Count of Savoie and (jure uxoris) Count of Flanders and Hainault and (2nd wife) Beatrice Fieschi sister of Pope Innocent IV. Margaret married (2) 1269 Sir Robert Aguillon

There is a huge footnote.
Basically it states that, according to L'Art de Verifier les Dates, tom iii, page 615, Thomas de Savoie (who died in 1233) had two daughters, Marguerite who in 1218 married Hartman von Kyburg and Avoie who married Baudouin de Riviere, Comte de Devonshire. (However, ES II 190 gives him five daughters).

Then it starts to demolish this statement as absurd and impossible as the family tree of the Counts of Kyburg is known and then gives a _wong_ tree in regards of the house of Savoie, wrong according to ES. And so what is correct?

Thomas de Savoie, who died in 1233, was the father of Thomas who married Beatrice Fieschi.
As Thomas who died in 1233 had 17 legitimate (and two illegitimate) children (according to ES) married about 1196, he _could_ have a daughter Avita/Avoise who marries in 1237 and possibly in 1257. Thomas and his wife married about 1196 and the first son was born in 1197. If the wife was, say sixteen giving birth to the first child, could she (guesswork) have given birth to a child close to 1230?

Now going back to CP. Baldwin de Reviers was born in 1235/6. "His marriage was granted to Pierre de Savoie, with the intention that he should marry such a one of the Queen's cousins as Pierre select. Patent Rolls, 36 Hen III." The most likely Pierre is an uncle of Queen Eleanor, an ex-priest who became Earl of Richmond. Could Baldwin have married (1257) a woman about five years older? Making her an aunt of Queen Eleanor instead of a cousin? It would mean that one sister married about 1216 and the other in 1257-----quite a stretch. But if Avita/Avoise was born about 1230 (14 years after her sister married) she was only 27 or so when she married.

Any suggestions to this weird situation?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

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