Thornhills by Charles Travis Clay

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Tim Powys-Lybbe

Thornhills by Charles Travis Clay

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 jan 2006 12:22:11

I have finally got a copy of C T Clay's article "The Family of
Thornhill" from the Yorks Arch Journal, Vol 29 of 1929, pp. 286-321,
though the line to the Savile marriage is only in 287-307. I have
not seen this article reported elsewhere on sgm, though doubtless
someone will prove me wrong on that! Clay shows the line to the
Saviles as (use a non-proportional font, eg Courier, for a better
display):

(1) Essulf
(2) Jordan fitz Essulf ( - >1194)
(3) Richard de Thornhill ( - <1209)
& Alice ( - >1209)
(4) Sir John de Thornhill (<1203 - <1250)
& Olivia de la Mare
(5) Sir Richard de Thornhill* (ca1228 - <1290)
& Margaret
(6) Sir John Thornhill ( - 1322)
& Beatrice ( - ca1328)
m. bef 1286
(7) Brian Thornhill ( - <1369)
& Joan
m. bef 1342
(8) Sir Simon de Thornhill ( - ca1369)
& Elizabeth (?)
(9) Elizabeth Thornhill (ca1368 - >1414)
& Henry Savile ( - 1412)
(5) Sir Richard de Thornhill* (ca1228 - <1290)
& Maud ( - >1290)

Anyone who wants a copy of the (excellent) article for strictly research
purposes only, please e-mail me.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John P. Ravilious

Re: Thornhills by Charles Travis Clay

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 26 jan 2006 13:30:40

Dear Tim,

Many thanks for that.

I've not seen the article: much of Clay's work I've used (re:
Thornhill and others) comes from "Early Yorkshire Families". I'd be
most interested in a copy of the article.

The pedigree as you lay it out agrees in almost all regards with
what I have, minus a sibling or two. I note the following, the second
of which is of greater promise:

A. Jordan fitz Essulf had a son Jordan, most likely an elder son, who
either ob.v.p. or has been conflated over time with his father; the
pedigree is sound genealogically, as the ultimate successor was Jordan
fitz Essulf's son, " (3) Richard de Thornhill ( - <1209)". The
following is what I have re: Jordan de Thornhill, son of Jordan (the
second item is not so clear as to which individual is intended):

grant dated c1199-c1216:
' Grant by William, son of Pain de Denebj, to Jordan, son of Jordan de
Thornhill, of two bovates of land in Denebj, held of Simon, son of
Michael de Denebi, paying annually half a pound of cumin, or two-pence.

Witnesses, John de Birkin, and Roger his brother, Germanns de
Thornhill, Richard, son of Jordan, William son of Thomas, William son
of John, Robert son of Dolrin, Adam de Mirefield, Simon de Denebj, John
de Thornhill, who wrote the Charter.' - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive
Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall
[KM/1 - KM/857], KM/2

' Grant by Richard son of Henry de Tofteschath to Jordan de Thorenhill
of all his land etc in Tofeschath' (Toftshaw, Yk) ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/28/1/7


B. The pedigree below shows Sir Richard de Thornhill (# 5) with two
wives: (1) Margaret, mother of his children, and (2) Maud. This is
most interesting, as all sources I've seen to date give him the one
wife, Maud, called Matilda de Fixby by Joseph Foster [1].

I had theorized previously that the mother Sir John de Thornhill
and his brother Brian, rector of Bedale, co. Yorks. ca 1301-1343, was
more likely a sister of Sir Brian fitz Alan of Bedale. If in fact
their mother was named Margaret, and was a prior spouse of Sir Richard
de Thornhill, that possibility certainly looks more promising.

Sir Brian fitz Alan of Bedale did have a sister Margery, but she
is a poor candidate to have been the wife of Sir Richard de Thornhill
as she was still alive in 1310 [2]. The chronology you present below,
with Sir Richard being b. ca. 1228 and his son Sir John marrying
Beatrice before 1286, makes it more likely that Margaret, wife of Sir
Richard, could have been an aunt (not sister) of Sir Brian fitz Alan:
if this were true, she would have been daughter to Brian fitz Alan of
Bedale (d. aft 17 Jul 1242, grandfather of the famous Sir Brian),
probably by his wife Alice Hansard. This would also (if true) make
Brian de Thornhill, rector of Bedale, the namesake of his grandfather
Brian fitz Alan.

If any FitzAlan connections show themselves in Clay's Thornhill
article, that would be of great interest.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] Evidence re: Maud (or Matilda), wife of Sir Richard de Thornhill:

' Matilda, daughter of Thomas de Fixby. ' [pedigree of Thornhill, of
Fixby and Riddlesworth: Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees]

record of grant (undated):
' Grant: Thomas Worre of Thornhill to Lord Richard of Thornhill and
Matilda his wife house, toft and croft in Thornhill. ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], DD/SR/209/114

' Lady Maud de Thornehill ', had dower of a third part of a messuage
and of a bovate of land in 'Akenschag' , acknowledged, undated [est. c
1300]
' Acknowledgement by John son of Ric de Gomersal that he is bound to
John de Thornehill for an annual rent of 6s 8d of sterling for two
parts of a messuage and of a bovate in Akenschag', formerly leased but
now sold to the said John son of Ric, by John de Thornehill - the third
part, which is the dower of lady Maud de Thornehill during her life, to
pass to the said John son of Ric after her death ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205] , DD/SR/36/13


[2] This record dated 15 Sept 1310:
' Licence to Margery, sister of the late Sir Brian Fitzalan, to have
an oratory for three years in the manor of Baynton. ' [Dixon, Fasti
Eboracenses I:380]





Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
I have finally got a copy of C T Clay's article "The Family of
Thornhill" from the Yorks Arch Journal, Vol 29 of 1929, pp. 286-321,
though the line to the Savile marriage is only in 287-307. I have
not seen this article reported elsewhere on sgm, though doubtless
someone will prove me wrong on that! Clay shows the line to the
Saviles as (use a non-proportional font, eg Courier, for a better
display):

(1) Essulf
(2) Jordan fitz Essulf ( - >1194)
(3) Richard de Thornhill ( - <1209)
& Alice ( - >1209)
(4) Sir John de Thornhill (<1203 - <1250)
& Olivia de la Mare
(5) Sir Richard de Thornhill* (ca1228 - <1290)
& Margaret
(6) Sir John Thornhill ( - 1322)
& Beatrice ( - ca1328)
m. bef 1286
(7) Brian Thornhill ( - <1369)
& Joan
m. bef 1342
(8) Sir Simon de Thornhill ( - ca1369)
& Elizabeth (?)
(9) Elizabeth Thornhill (ca1368 - >1414)
& Henry Savile ( - 1412)
(5) Sir Richard de Thornhill* (ca1228 - <1290)
& Maud ( - >1290)

Anyone who wants a copy of the (excellent) article for strictly research
purposes only, please e-mail me.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Thornhills by Charles Travis Clay

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 jan 2006 15:51:28

In message of 26 Jan, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

I've not seen the article: much of Clay's work I've used (re:
Thornhill and others) comes from "Early Yorkshire Families".

Yes, Clay refers to this Thornhill article in his Early Yorkshire
Families which prompted me to search it out.

The pedigree as you lay it out agrees in almost all regards with
what I have, minus a sibling or two. I note the following, the second
of which is of greater promise:

A. Jordan fitz Essulf had a son Jordan, most likely an elder son, who
either ob.v.p. or has been conflated over time with his father; the
pedigree is sound genealogically, as the ultimate successor was Jordan
fitz Essulf's son, " (3) Richard de Thornhill ( - <1209)". The
following is what I have re: Jordan de Thornhill, son of Jordan (the
second item is not so clear as to which individual is intended):

grant dated c1199-c1216:
' Grant by William, son of Pain de Denebj, to Jordan, son of Jordan de
Thornhill, of two bovates of land in Denebj, held of Simon, son of
Michael de Denebi, paying annually half a pound of cumin, or
two-pence.

Witnesses, John de Birkin, and Roger his brother, Germanns de
Thornhill, Richard, son of Jordan, William son of Thomas, William son
of John, Robert son of Dolrin, Adam de Mirefield, Simon de Denebj,
John de Thornhill, who wrote the Charter.' - A2A, West Yorkshire
Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family of
Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/2

Clay gives an abstract of this.

' Grant by Richard son of Henry de Tofteschath to Jordan de Thorenhill
of all his land etc in Tofeschath' (Toftshaw, Yk) ' - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/28/1/7

Clay does not show this but says Jordan held of the king one carucate of
land in Lancs, from Book of Fees, I, 210.

Clay is not clear why he reports Richard as the elder brother to Jordan
and there in only one deed that he refers to that contains anything on
Richard.

B. The pedigree below shows Sir Richard de Thornhill (# 5) with two
wives: (1) Margaret, mother of his children, and (2) Maud. This is
most interesting, as all sources I've seen to date give him the one
wife, Maud, called Matilda de Fixby by Joseph Foster [1].

Clay refers to a fine of 1256 that includes Richard de Thornhill and
Margaret his wife; (Final Concorde of Lincoln, Lincoln record series
vol xvii, 127)

I had theorized previously that the mother Sir John de Thornhill
and his brother Brian, rector of Bedale, co. Yorks. ca 1301-1343, was
more likely a sister of Sir Brian fitz Alan of Bedale.

Clay includes "it is quite possible that the pedigree in Harleian Soc,
xvi, 317, which gives Maud as a sister of Brian FitzAlan of Bedale is
correct".

If in fact their mother was named Margaret, and was a prior spouse of
Sir Richard de Thornhill, that possibility certainly looks more
promising.

Sir Brian fitz Alan of Bedale did have a sister Margery, but she
is a poor candidate to have been the wife of Sir Richard de Thornhill
as she was still alive in 1310 [2]. The chronology you present below,
with Sir Richard being b. ca. 1228 and his son Sir John marrying
Beatrice before 1286, makes it more likely that Margaret, wife of Sir
Richard, could have been an aunt (not sister) of Sir Brian fitz Alan:
if this were true, she would have been daughter to Brian fitz Alan of
Bedale (d. aft 17 Jul 1242, grandfather of the famous Sir Brian),
probably by his wife Alice Hansard. This would also (if true) make
Brian de Thornhill, rector of Bedale, the namesake of his grandfather
Brian fitz Alan.

If any FitzAlan connections show themselves in Clay's Thornhill
article, that would be of great interest.

Sir Brian de Thornhill, d. 1343, son of Sir Richard, son of Sir John,
son of Richard, son of Jordan fitz Essulf, was rector of Bedale (and was
not a knight). Clay refers to the possibility that his step-mother may
have been a FitzAlan of Bedale, leading one to the conclusion that this
was how Brian got that job. In 1292, his nephew Sir John was in
Scotland on the king's service with Brian FitzAlan (Cal. Pat. Rolls,
1281-92, p. 468) and in 1294 he was in the household of Brian FitzAlan
(Cal. Chancery Warrants, i, 47).

Clay has an explanation of how Maud was referred to by Foster as Maud
of Fixby: "Apart from the Christian name there seems to be no evidence
whatever for this statement [by Foster]; and is is probable that the
marriage was confused with that of a later Richard de Thornhill, who
acquired Fixby my marriage with Margaret de Totehill." There are
several refutations of Foster's work in this account by Clay, leading
one, or me anyhow, to wonder what Foster was doing. Though Clay adds
later, on the misidentification of Simon Thornhill's wife as Mary or
Elizabeth Babthorpe: "This is only another illustration of the
difficulties which prevent a satisfactory identification of the wives of
most members of the Thornhill family".

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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