Wednesday, 25 January, 2006
Hello All,
As a followup to prior threads on this subject, following is a
pedigree of the direct male line descent of Mór ingen Muirchertaig
Ua Tuathail, wife of Diarmaid mac Murchada and mother of Eva [Aoife],
wife of Richard 'Strongbow'.
This line is traced from Dúnlaing, ancestor of the Uí Dúnlainge,
the subject of a prior thread. This pedigree is somewhat abbreviated,
as the earlier generations which would have been duplicated are not
repeated below. In this case, the pedigree commences with Muiredach
mac Murchada, younger brother of Faelan mac Murchada (d. 738) and son
of Murchad mac Brain Muit, king of Leinster (d. 727)
[ #1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 in the prior pedigree of the Uí Dúnlainge].
Of 'related' interest, this pedigree shows Máelcorcre ingen
Dunlaing, wife of Óláfr Sigtryggsson, heir of Dublin (dvp 1034), and
daughter of Dúnlang mac Tuathail [# 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 in the pedigree].
Her daughter Ragnhild was the wife of the exile Cynan ap Iago, by
whom she was the great-great grandmother of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. By
their common descent from Dúnlang mac Tuathail, Llywelyn and Mór
ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail were 5th cousins 1x removed.
Cheers,
John *
1 Muiredach mac Murchada
----------------------------------------
Death: 0760[1],[2]
Father: Murchad mac Brain Muit (-0727) [see Uí Dúnlainge pedigree]
Mother: Conchenn ingen Cellaig Cualain
king of Laigin [Leinster], 738-760
'Muiredach mac Murchada (ancestor of the Uí Muiredaig branch of
Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 760 [AU] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a
(Rw.11, CGH.13); WUD] '[1]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Bran Ardchenn (-0795)
1.1 Bran Ardchenn mac Muiredach
----------------------------------------
Death: 0795[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 785-795
'Bran Ardchenn mac Muiredaig (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 795 [AU] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a
(Rw.11, CGH.13)] '[1]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: NN
Children: Cellach (-0834)
Muiredach (-0818)
1.1.1 Muiredach mac Brain
----------------------------------------
Death: 0818[1]
younger son
half-king ("leth-ri") of Laigin
'Muiredach mac Brain (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), half-king ("leth-ri") of Laigin, d. 818 [AU]
[R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a (Rw.11, CGH.13)] '[1]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Etromma ingen Indellaig
Father: Indellach mac Meic
Mother: Fidcossa
Children: Dúnlaing (-0869)
Tuathal (-0854)
1.1.1.1 Dúnlaing mac Muiredaig
----------------------------------------
Death: 0869[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 863-869
'Dúnlaing mac Muiredaig (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 869 [CS] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a
(Rw.11, CGH.12)] '[3]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Ailill (-0871)
1.1.1.1.1 Ailill mac Dúnlaing
----------------------------------------
Death: 0871[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 869-871
'Ailill mac Dúnlaing, king of Laigin (of the Uí Muiredaig branch
of Uí Dúnlainge), d. 871 [AU] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a (Rw.11,
CGH.12)] '[3]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Augaire (-0917)
1.1.1.1.1.1 Augaire mac Ailella
----------------------------------------
Death: 0917, Battle of Cennfuait[2],[3]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 909-917[2]
' Augaire mac Ailella (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí Dúnlainge),
king of Laigin, d. 917, having been killed in the Battle of Cennfuait
by Sitric ua Imair (#272) [AU] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a (Rw.11,
CGH.12)] '[3]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Tuathal (-0958)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Tuathal mac Augaire[4]
----------------------------------------
Death: 0958[5],[2],[4]
king of Laigin (Leinster), 947-958[4]
'Tuathal mac Augaire (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí Dúnlainge,
ancestor of the family of Ua Tuathail, i.e., O'Toole), king of
Laigin, d. 958 [AU] [R.117c=LL.337d=BB.138a (Rw.11, CGH.12)]'[4]
'M956, Tuathal, son of Ugaire, King of Leinster, died.
CS958, Tuathal son of Augaire, king of Laigin, dies.
AI958, Death of Tuathal son of Augaire, king of Laigin.
U958, Tuathal son of Úgaire, king of Laigin, dies. '[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Dúnlang (-1014)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Dúnlang mac Tuathail
----------------------------------------
Death: 1014[5],[2],[4]
king of Laigin [Leinster][4]
'Dúnlaing mac Tuathail' [ (of the Uí Muiredaig branch of Uí Dúnlaing),
king of Laigin d. 1014 [Stewart Baldwin, cites The Annals of Ulster
to A.D. 1131, edited by S. Mac Airt and G. Mac Niocaill
(Dublin, 1984); also "Hanes Gruffudd ap Cynan" (actually titled
"Historia hen Gruffud vab Kenan vab Iago"), of which the earliest
manuscript is Peniarth MS. 17 (mid-13th century), in EWGT,
pp. 35-37[4]]
'M1013, Dunlang, son of Tuathal, King of Leinster, died.
CS1014, ...there fell there Mael Mórdha son of Murchad son of Finn
king of Laigin, and Tuathal grandson of Ugaire heir designate of
Laigin.
CS1014, Dúnlang son of Tuathal, king of Laigin, dies.
U1014, Dúlang son of Tuathal, king of Laigin, died. '[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Máelcorcre, m. Óláfr Sigtryggsson, heir of Dublin
Donnchad mac Dúnlaing (-1016)
Murchad (-1042)
Gillacomgan (-1019)
Úgaire (-1024)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Donnchad mac Dúnlaing Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
Death: 1016[5],[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 1014-1016[2]
' Donncuan ua Tuathail, k. Laigin, d. 1016 ' [AU[6]]
'U1016.6
Donn Cuan son of Dúlang, king of Laigin, and Tadc ua Riain, king
of Uí Drona, were slain by Donnchad, son of Gilla Pátraic, in
the middle of Leithglenn.'[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Gilla Comgaill (-1041)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Gilla Comgaill Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
Death: 1041[6],[5]
'U1041.7
Gilla Comgaill son of Donn Cuan son of Dúnlang was forcibly taken
from Cell Dara and afterwards put to death.'[5]
' Gilla Comgaill Ua Tuathail, d. 1041 ' [AU[6]]
Children: Gilla Coemgin (-1059)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Gilla Coemgin Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
Death: 1059[6],[5]
heir of Laigin
'U1059.5
Cathal son of Tigernán, king of the west of Connacht, Congalach
ua Riacáin, heir designate of Temair, Duarcán ua hEgra, king
of Luigne, Gilla Coeimgein son of Gilla Comgaill, heir designate
of Laigin, were killed.'[5]
' Gilla Coemgin Ua Tuathail, d. 1059 ' [AU[6]]
Children: Donncuan
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Donncuan Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
' Donncuan Ua Tuathail '[6]
Spouse: Sadb ingen Mael Morda Ua Domnaill
Father: Mael Morda mac Donnchada ua Domnaill (-1090)
Children: Gilla Comgaill (-1127)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Gilla Comgaill Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
Death: 1127[6],[7]
' Gilla Comgaill Ua Tuathail, d. 1127 ' [AFM[6]]
'M1127.5
Gillachomhghaill Ua Tuathail, successor of Caeimhghin, was killed
by the Fortuatha.' Annals of the Four Masters, 1127[7]
Children: Muirchertach (-1164)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a Muirchertach Ua Tuathail*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1164[7],[6]
king of Ui Muiredaig
' Muirchertach Ua Tuathail, k. Uí Muiredaig, d. 1164 ' [AT[6]]
'M1154, Mac-Cuirr-na-gColpach Ua Fiachrach, lord of Ui-Feineachlais,
was slain by Muircheartach Ua Tuathail, lord of Ui-Muireadhaigh.'
' M1164.9
Muircheartach Ua Tuathail, lord of Ui-Muireadhaigh, and chief of
Leinster in hospitality and prowess, died after penance.'[7]
Spouse: Cacht ingen Loigsig Ua Morda
Father: Loigsech Ua Morda
Mother: Gormlaith ingen Finn Ua Caellaide
Children: Mór
Other Spouses NN [mother of Lorcan, 'St. Laurence O'Toole']
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a.1 Mór ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
' Mor ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail ' [Ban Senchus 232[6]]
3rd (or 4th) wife of Diarmaid [Cosgrove II:23[8]]
Spouse: Diarmaid mac Murchada, king of Leinster
Death: ca 1 May 1171[9],[7]
Father: Donchad mac Murchada (-1115)
Mother: Orlaith ingen Ua Bráenáin
Children: Aoife [Eva] (-ca1189), m. Richard 'Strongbow'
Urlachan
Conchobar (-ca1170)
Enna
1. Stewart Baldwin, "Llywelyn AT - Part 4 of 9," 26 Nov 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
2. T. W. Moody, F. X. Martin and F. J. Byrne, eds., "A New History
of Ireland," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1984, Vol. IX, Part II:Maps,
Genealogies, Lists.
3. Stewart Baldwin, "Llywelyn AT - Part 3 of 9," 26 Nov 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
4. Stewart Baldwin, "Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (Ancestor Table),"
RootsWeb (http://www.rootsweb.com), extracted 13 Sept 2000,
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/llywelyn.htm
5. "Annals of Ulster," University College Cork,
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L100005/
project CELT: The Corpus of Electronic Texts, U1206: entry re:
the Battle of Downpatrick.
6. Stewart Baldwin, "Eve of Leinster and Radnaillt of Dublin,"
27 July 1996 (restated 26 Feb 1998), cites Ban Senchus, AU and
other sources re: the ancestry of Aoife ingen Diarmaid, heiress
of Leinster, and wife of Richard 'Strongbow' de Clare.
7. "Annals of the Four Masters," University College Cork,
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L100005/
project CELT: The Corpus of Electronic Texts, M1247.4:
slaughter of Echmarcach Ua Cathain by Magnus Ua Cathain.
8. Art Cosgrove, ed., "A New History of Ireland," Oxford:
Clarendon Press, 1987 (Vol. II), Vol. II: Medieval Ireland,
1169-1534.
9. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
* John P. Ravilious
Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: Ua Tuathail (O'Toole)
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: Ua Tuathail (O'Toole)
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 04:52:39 +0000 (UTC), Therav3@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
I was holding my tongue (or the keyboard equivalent of that term), but
since it seems that these postings are continuing, I guess that I need
to speak up. In my opinion, postings like this are an excellent
example of how NOT to do source citations. The most obvious problem
(among others) is the very misleading use of what might be called the
"indirect citation". If you use a source A for a particular
statement, then that is the source you should cite. If source A cites
source B, and you have not checked source B, and you really want to do
the indiredt citation (something that should be done sparingly, in my
opinion), then the correct way to cite your source is something along
the lines of [A, citing B], or something else which makes it clear
that you have not actually consulted source B. The fact that you did
not look at the Ban-Shenchus seems clear from the fact that, had you
done so, you would have known that among Diarmait's children, Mór is
documented only as the mother of Aife/Eve and Conchobar [p. 232], that
Diarmait had another wife Sadb ingen Cerbaill of Uí Fáeláin who was
the mother of his daughter Orlaith (wife of Domnall Ua Briain of
Munster) [p. 233]. You would have seen that Mór's mother Cacht was
also the mother of three sons (Áed, Tuathal, and Conshobar) by
Muircertach Ua Tuathail [in addition to having at least three children
by two other husbands, p. 232], and that Muircertach had another wife
(an unnamed daughter of Cerball Mac Bricc) who was mother of three
sons, "the bishop" (i.e., Lorcán), Gilla Comgaill (king of Uí
Muiredaig), Dúngal, and a daughter Sadb [p.233], all within a few
entries of the entry for Aife/Eve. Furthermore, when I originally
compiled my posting, I had used the abbreviation "BS" for then Ban
Shenchus, and you have expanded each of these as "Ban Senchus" (the
spelling error being apparently due to an unfortunate copy-paste from
a typo committed by me). Are people then supposed to realize that the
conveniently abbreviated "[6]" following the citation refers to the
fact that you copied the citation itself from my work? The possible
explanation that you were saving bandwidth will not cut it, because
you seem to have plenty of room for repeating some citations in full
several times (e.g., Moody), and there is lots of rooms for
1.1.1.1.1.1's. It is true that there is one place where it is more
clearly indicated that an indirect citation came from my work, but
this only encourages the reader to misinterpret the other inadequate
citations.
To add to this, here is an excerpt from your posting of about a week
ago:
Are people supposed to realize from the "[1]" that the entire excerpt
above is a copy-paste quote from my own work? If you took the
postings that you have done on this subject during the last week or so
and eliminated all of the material that was either copy-pasted from my
work or was copy-pasted from various annals on the CELT website, what
percentage would be left?
Stewart Baldwin
[snip]
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a Muirchertach Ua Tuathail*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1164[7],[6]
king of Ui Muiredaig
' Muirchertach Ua Tuathail, k. Uí Muiredaig, d. 1164 ' [AT[6]]
'M1154, Mac-Cuirr-na-gColpach Ua Fiachrach, lord of Ui-Feineachlais,
was slain by Muircheartach Ua Tuathail, lord of Ui-Muireadhaigh.'
' M1164.9
Muircheartach Ua Tuathail, lord of Ui-Muireadhaigh, and chief of
Leinster in hospitality and prowess, died after penance.'[7]
Spouse: Cacht ingen Loigsig Ua Morda
Father: Loigsech Ua Morda
Mother: Gormlaith ingen Finn Ua Caellaide
Children: Mór
Other Spouses NN [mother of Lorcan, 'St. Laurence O'Toole']
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a.1 Mór ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail
----------------------------------------
' Mor ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail ' [Ban Senchus 232[6]]
3rd (or 4th) wife of Diarmaid [Cosgrove II:23[8]]
Spouse: Diarmaid mac Murchada, king of Leinster
Death: ca 1 May 1171[9],[7]
Father: Donchad mac Murchada (-1115)
Mother: Orlaith ingen Ua Bráenáin
Children: Aoife [Eva] (-ca1189), m. Richard 'Strongbow'
Urlachan
Conchobar (-ca1170)
Enna
I was holding my tongue (or the keyboard equivalent of that term), but
since it seems that these postings are continuing, I guess that I need
to speak up. In my opinion, postings like this are an excellent
example of how NOT to do source citations. The most obvious problem
(among others) is the very misleading use of what might be called the
"indirect citation". If you use a source A for a particular
statement, then that is the source you should cite. If source A cites
source B, and you have not checked source B, and you really want to do
the indiredt citation (something that should be done sparingly, in my
opinion), then the correct way to cite your source is something along
the lines of [A, citing B], or something else which makes it clear
that you have not actually consulted source B. The fact that you did
not look at the Ban-Shenchus seems clear from the fact that, had you
done so, you would have known that among Diarmait's children, Mór is
documented only as the mother of Aife/Eve and Conchobar [p. 232], that
Diarmait had another wife Sadb ingen Cerbaill of Uí Fáeláin who was
the mother of his daughter Orlaith (wife of Domnall Ua Briain of
Munster) [p. 233]. You would have seen that Mór's mother Cacht was
also the mother of three sons (Áed, Tuathal, and Conshobar) by
Muircertach Ua Tuathail [in addition to having at least three children
by two other husbands, p. 232], and that Muircertach had another wife
(an unnamed daughter of Cerball Mac Bricc) who was mother of three
sons, "the bishop" (i.e., Lorcán), Gilla Comgaill (king of Uí
Muiredaig), Dúngal, and a daughter Sadb [p.233], all within a few
entries of the entry for Aife/Eve. Furthermore, when I originally
compiled my posting, I had used the abbreviation "BS" for then Ban
Shenchus, and you have expanded each of these as "Ban Senchus" (the
spelling error being apparently due to an unfortunate copy-paste from
a typo committed by me). Are people then supposed to realize that the
conveniently abbreviated "[6]" following the citation refers to the
fact that you copied the citation itself from my work? The possible
explanation that you were saving bandwidth will not cut it, because
you seem to have plenty of room for repeating some citations in full
several times (e.g., Moody), and there is lots of rooms for
1.1.1.1.1.1's. It is true that there is one place where it is more
clearly indicated that an indirect citation came from my work, but
this only encourages the reader to misinterpret the other inadequate
citations.
To add to this, here is an excerpt from your posting of about a week
ago:
1 Dúnlaing
----------------------------------------
'Dúnlaing (also #4587584), ancestor of the sept of Uí
Dúnlainge, which monopolized the kingship of Laigin (Leinster) from
the seventh through the early eleventh centuries. [Note: As the
ancestor from whom the Uí Dúnlainge got their name, his existence can
be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived in the
mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son of Énnae
Niad, son of Bressal Bélach, son of Fiachu Ba hAiccid, son of Cathair
Már, at which point we are clearly in the mythical part of the
genealogy. Although the existence of Énnae and Bressal as father and
grandfather of Dúnlainge cannot be ruled out, neither can it be
accepted as probable. The official genealogy, which makes Dúnlaing a
first cousin of Énnae Cennselach (#9175936 below), ancestor of the Uí
Chennselaig (the other main powerful sect in Leinster during the
historical period), thus causing the two main Leinster septs to branch
off from each other just prior to the historical period, looks
suspicious, and is just as likely to be the invention of the later
pseudohistorians as genuine tradition.] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)] '[1]
Are people supposed to realize from the "[1]" that the entire excerpt
above is a copy-paste quote from my own work? If you took the
postings that you have done on this subject during the last week or so
and eliminated all of the material that was either copy-pasted from my
work or was copy-pasted from various annals on the CELT website, what
percentage would be left?
Stewart Baldwin