Hi,
I was reading interesting posts on Segrave, Despenser, Prestwold connection.
And I was wondering if it were any link between Segrave and de Jorz Family.
I ask that because first these families lived in the same area
leicestershire
Prestwold, Burton on wold etc... at the same period of time (1086-1300)
Also we can find the Segrave blason (a crowned rampant lion) on the burial
stone of Rob. de Jorz (1300) still visible in Burton Joyce church along with
the Jorz ones (a bend with 3 water bouges).
For Jorz Genealogy details see Antiquities of Nott. by Rob. Thoroton TIII
p18.
Also a certain number of doc. show donators like the despenser along with
the Jorz.
see for example Sir Christopher Hatton 's book of Seals
Charter N°3 circa. 1170
"Notification by Thomas The Despenser, Geof. de Jort , Will. de Munford,
Henry son of Serlo and Rich. his brother and Rob son of Picot that they have
given 'Locholmuvro de fulifen beside Holywell Hall to Garendon abbey"
and Garendon Cartulary in Monasticon by Dugsdale T5 p332 : we have in a
charter (EdwIII):
"Concessionem etiam et confirmationem quas idem comes per idem scriptum
fecit eisdem abbati et monachis , de donationibus quas Robertus de Torz
(Jorz) , Willielmus de Torz (Jorz), et Thomas Dispensiarus fecerunt
praedictis monachis in feudo ipsius comitis de Haliwellhawe (Holywell Hall)
"
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... ail&id=265
9
That's not all.
De Jorz Family was feudal tenant in Goscote Wapentake where you find
Prestwold, Burton, Hoton, Wymeswold Loughborough few miles apart each
others.
Rob. de Jorz is mentionned in Domesday book as a tenant of Wymeswold and
Hoton from the king.
An other Rob. de Jort (Jorz) is mentioned in the leicester survey (J.H.
Round) in Prestwold in 1130.
Does it sound ridiculous that a Jorz family member who held the manor of
Prestwold at that time were named de Prestwold?
This will explain the link between Segrave and Jorz and Prestwold.
Around 1200 a Jorz branch appreared in Nottinghamshire by Geoffroy de Jorz
at Burton Joyce.
I could mention also Ansger and Anschetil de Jorz around 1150 mentioned in
the Winchester Domesday.
See Winchester in early Middle ages by Martin Biddle.
Jean Jacques.
Prestwold-Segrave-Jorz connection?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Prestwold-Segrave-Jorz connection?
Dear JeanJacques,
I agree that there is likely a connection between the Despensers
and the Jorz family beyond that of land tenure; however, to date I have
not found one. The next chance I have to obtain a copy of the
Antiquities of Notts. you mention below, I will see what details may be
there re: the Jorz family.
It was not until ca. 1208 when we find a marriage between the
Despensers and the Segraves. It is possible that there was no marriage
with the Jorz family; it is also possible that one or more did occur,
but successes in locating connections in the period 1086 to say 1200
are few and far between.
Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
Cheers,
John
JeanJacques wrote:
<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>.
I agree that there is likely a connection between the Despensers
and the Jorz family beyond that of land tenure; however, to date I have
not found one. The next chance I have to obtain a copy of the
Antiquities of Notts. you mention below, I will see what details may be
there re: the Jorz family.
It was not until ca. 1208 when we find a marriage between the
Despensers and the Segraves. It is possible that there was no marriage
with the Jorz family; it is also possible that one or more did occur,
but successes in locating connections in the period 1086 to say 1200
are few and far between.
Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
Cheers,
John
JeanJacques wrote:
Hi,
I was reading interesting posts on Segrave, Despenser, Prestwold connection.
And I was wondering if it were any link between Segrave and de Jorz Family.
I ask that because first these families lived in the same area
leicestershire
Prestwold, Burton on wold etc... at the same period of time (1086-1300)
Also we can find the Segrave blason (a crowned rampant lion) on the burial
stone of Rob. de Jorz (1300) still visible in Burton Joyce church along with
the Jorz ones (a bend with 3 water bouges).
For Jorz Genealogy details see Antiquities of Nott. by Rob. Thoroton TIII
p18.
<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>.
-
fherbert
Re: Prestwold-Segrave-Jorz connection?
Dear John
I can give you the transcription of interesting info. on Jorz family
from Antiquities of Notts.:
....
"a.[Rot. Pip. 30 H2 Warw: & Legrecest] Galfr. de Georz 30 HII gave
account of xxs that the deed or charter which he had of Will. de Georz
concerning the land of Littlebury (Loughborough) should be read in the
kings court.
b. [Pip. 13 John & rot: ii: Test de Nev.]Agnes was wife of Geof. (13
John)
c[ Autog. pen. J. Walker de Eperston, Gen.] *
Galfr. de Jorz paid 2 marks for one knights fee in Burton during HIII
reign afterward Rich. de Jorz was found to holda knight fee of Oliver
de Eyncourt , who held it of the king of the old feoffment.
Rob. de Jorce of Burton , son of Rich. Jorce , knight, settled his
manor of burton by bulcote, and 32 shillings rent, with the
appartenances in Hokkesworth, and 3 mess. and 5 bov. in Gedeling and 41
shillings rent in Ester-Leyk in this cowntry (Nott.), 14 mess.
and 14 virgats of land with appartenances in Bakewell in derbyshire
and 1 mess. and 1 carr. of land and 32 acres of meadow and 13l... rent,
with appartenances in Lugtheburgh (Loughborough) in Leicestershire, on
Rich. his son and the heirs male of his body laufully begotten;
remainder to Rob de Jorz another son of his; remainder to Will another
son of his; remainder to the right heirs of the said Rob. de Jorz the
father; on whole seal , as upon divers other of his family is a Bend
charged with tree Waterbougets. This deed bears date at Burton Jorce
1EdwII
witnesses: John de Herrys, Ralph de Crumwell, Ralph de Crophil,
knights, Will. son of Rich. de Burton, Rob. de Burstall of the same
town, Thomas le Palmer of the same, Rob Jorce cousin of the said Rob.
de Lughburgh, Rob. le Ster of the same .
Rich. Arre de Ebreston gave this manor of Ebreston to Rob. de Jorce and
Isolda his wife.
Their 2nd son Robert de Jorz , afterward knight, married Isabell de
Wasteneys. (18EdwII)"
etc...
* note. The sources ref. are written as it is. I suppose that 's mean
Genealogical
doc. manuscript. from Walker family who were the only descendant of
Jorz in Nott.
The genealogy given is :
"Robertus de Jortz, 8H.2 who gives:
1 Will. 30 H. 2
2 Galfridus de Georz 30 H.2 & Agnes vidua superstes 13 Joh.
2.1 Ralph & Cecilia de Marteney
2.2 Rich. de Jorz miles who gives:
2.2.1Thomas de Jorz (Cardinal)**,
2.2.2 Walter**,
2.2.3 Roland**,
2.2.4 Will.**,
2.2.5 ? & Will. de Burton**
2.2.6 ? & Rob. de Risley**
2.2.7
Dom. Robertus de Jorce*, superst. 1E.2 Isolda-Idolna superst. 12E.2
*The burrial stone with Segrave Blason.
2.2.7.1 Will. & Agnes
2.2.7.2 Rich.
2.2.7.3 Rob &(1347) Isab. de Wasteney daughter of Will & Johana Bret
2.2.7.3.1 John & Mathilde
2.2.7.3.1.1 Rob.
2.2.7.3.1.2 John a daugther cecilia married Rob de Hauwburgh
2.2.7.3.1.3 Will. a daughter elianora married John Walker of Eperston"
etc...
** I got this information from a thesis on Card. Thomas de Jorz.
We can also read the description of the tomb and the church windows as:
"In the noth side of the church is a plain stone tomb, whereon lyeth
the image of an armed knight , on whose shield is embossed a bend and
on it 3 waterbougetts; and on one shield on the south side of the tomb
is a lion rampant crowned (Segrave blason)
and upon another shield the same with that on his arm?.
In the east window of the chancel is represented a women praying viz:
on her knees her upper coat is paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable, 3 waterbougets Argent.
In the same window is Azure a Bend between six Escallops argent with a
Mullet on the Bend, Frechville.
In the same also --------Azure a fesse Arg. between ----------
in another south window , -----paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable 3 waterbougets Arg, Jorz I suppose." etc...
The description of the windows is valuable because I think the windows
don't exist anymore.
It 's not the case of the armories on the stone tomb still visible.
As I said we can have more informations on Jorce family. See for
example the prosopography of Keat Rohan.
Concerning the hypothesis Prestwold=Jorz branch.
I will try to see if it works.
Any hints are wellcome. Thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Jean Jacques.
PS: I have trouble with my newsgroup server. It 's the reason why I use
google some time.
John P. Ravilious a écrit :
I can give you the transcription of interesting info. on Jorz family
from Antiquities of Notts.:
....
"a.[Rot. Pip. 30 H2 Warw: & Legrecest] Galfr. de Georz 30 HII gave
account of xxs that the deed or charter which he had of Will. de Georz
concerning the land of Littlebury (Loughborough) should be read in the
kings court.
b. [Pip. 13 John & rot: ii: Test de Nev.]Agnes was wife of Geof. (13
John)
c[ Autog. pen. J. Walker de Eperston, Gen.] *
Galfr. de Jorz paid 2 marks for one knights fee in Burton during HIII
reign afterward Rich. de Jorz was found to holda knight fee of Oliver
de Eyncourt , who held it of the king of the old feoffment.
Rob. de Jorce of Burton , son of Rich. Jorce , knight, settled his
manor of burton by bulcote, and 32 shillings rent, with the
appartenances in Hokkesworth, and 3 mess. and 5 bov. in Gedeling and 41
shillings rent in Ester-Leyk in this cowntry (Nott.), 14 mess.
and 14 virgats of land with appartenances in Bakewell in derbyshire
and 1 mess. and 1 carr. of land and 32 acres of meadow and 13l... rent,
with appartenances in Lugtheburgh (Loughborough) in Leicestershire, on
Rich. his son and the heirs male of his body laufully begotten;
remainder to Rob de Jorz another son of his; remainder to Will another
son of his; remainder to the right heirs of the said Rob. de Jorz the
father; on whole seal , as upon divers other of his family is a Bend
charged with tree Waterbougets. This deed bears date at Burton Jorce
1EdwII
witnesses: John de Herrys, Ralph de Crumwell, Ralph de Crophil,
knights, Will. son of Rich. de Burton, Rob. de Burstall of the same
town, Thomas le Palmer of the same, Rob Jorce cousin of the said Rob.
de Lughburgh, Rob. le Ster of the same .
Rich. Arre de Ebreston gave this manor of Ebreston to Rob. de Jorce and
Isolda his wife.
Their 2nd son Robert de Jorz , afterward knight, married Isabell de
Wasteneys. (18EdwII)"
etc...
* note. The sources ref. are written as it is. I suppose that 's mean
Genealogical
doc. manuscript. from Walker family who were the only descendant of
Jorz in Nott.
The genealogy given is :
"Robertus de Jortz, 8H.2 who gives:
1 Will. 30 H. 2
2 Galfridus de Georz 30 H.2 & Agnes vidua superstes 13 Joh.
2.1 Ralph & Cecilia de Marteney
2.2 Rich. de Jorz miles who gives:
2.2.1Thomas de Jorz (Cardinal)**,
2.2.2 Walter**,
2.2.3 Roland**,
2.2.4 Will.**,
2.2.5 ? & Will. de Burton**
2.2.6 ? & Rob. de Risley**
2.2.7
Dom. Robertus de Jorce*, superst. 1E.2 Isolda-Idolna superst. 12E.2
*The burrial stone with Segrave Blason.
2.2.7.1 Will. & Agnes
2.2.7.2 Rich.
2.2.7.3 Rob &(1347) Isab. de Wasteney daughter of Will & Johana Bret
2.2.7.3.1 John & Mathilde
2.2.7.3.1.1 Rob.
2.2.7.3.1.2 John a daugther cecilia married Rob de Hauwburgh
2.2.7.3.1.3 Will. a daughter elianora married John Walker of Eperston"
etc...
** I got this information from a thesis on Card. Thomas de Jorz.
We can also read the description of the tomb and the church windows as:
"In the noth side of the church is a plain stone tomb, whereon lyeth
the image of an armed knight , on whose shield is embossed a bend and
on it 3 waterbougetts; and on one shield on the south side of the tomb
is a lion rampant crowned (Segrave blason)
and upon another shield the same with that on his arm?.
In the east window of the chancel is represented a women praying viz:
on her knees her upper coat is paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable, 3 waterbougets Argent.
In the same window is Azure a Bend between six Escallops argent with a
Mullet on the Bend, Frechville.
In the same also --------Azure a fesse Arg. between ----------
in another south window , -----paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable 3 waterbougets Arg, Jorz I suppose." etc...
The description of the windows is valuable because I think the windows
don't exist anymore.
It 's not the case of the armories on the stone tomb still visible.
As I said we can have more informations on Jorce family. See for
example the prosopography of Keat Rohan.
Concerning the hypothesis Prestwold=Jorz branch.
I will try to see if it works.
Any hints are wellcome. Thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Jean Jacques.
PS: I have trouble with my newsgroup server. It 's the reason why I use
google some time.
John P. Ravilious a écrit :
Dear JeanJacques,
I agree that there is likely a connection between the Despensers
and the Jorz family beyond that of land tenure; however, to date I have
not found one. The next chance I have to obtain a copy of the
Antiquities of Notts. you mention below, I will see what details may be
there re: the Jorz family.
It was not until ca. 1208 when we find a marriage between the
Despensers and the Segraves. It is possible that there was no marriage
with the Jorz family; it is also possible that one or more did occur,
but successes in locating connections in the period 1086 to say 1200
are few and far between.
Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
Cheers,
John
-
fherbert
Re: Prestwold-Segrave-Jorz connection?
Dear John
I can give you the transcription of interesting info. on Jorz family
from Antiquities of Notts.:
....
"a.[Rot. Pip. 30 H2 Warw: & Legrecest] Galfr. de Georz 30 HII gave
account of xxs that the deed or charter which he had of Will. de Georz
concerning the land of Littlebury (Loughborough) should be read in the
kings court.
b. [Pip. 13 John & rot: ii: Test de Nev.]Agnes was wife of Geof. (13
John)
c[ Autog. pen. J. Walker de Eperston, Gen.] *
Galfr. de Jorz paid 2 marks for one knights fee in Burton during HIII
reign afterward Rich. de Jorz was found to holda knight fee of Oliver
de Eyncourt , who held it of the king of the old feoffment.
Rob. de Jorce of Burton , son of Rich. Jorce , knight, settled his
manor of burton by bulcote, and 32 shillings rent, with the
appartenances in Hokkesworth, and 3 mess. and 5 bov. in Gedeling and 41
shillings rent in Ester-Leyk in this cowntry (Nott.), 14 mess.
and 14 virgats of land with appartenances in Bakewell in derbyshire
and 1 mess. and 1 carr. of land and 32 acres of meadow and 13l... rent,
with appartenances in Lugtheburgh (Loughborough) in Leicestershire, on
Rich. his son and the heirs male of his body laufully begotten;
remainder to Rob de Jorz another son of his; remainder to Will another
son of his; remainder to the right heirs of the said Rob. de Jorz the
father; on whole seal , as upon divers other of his family is a Bend
charged with tree Waterbougets. This deed bears date at Burton Jorce
1EdwII
witnesses: John de Herrys, Ralph de Crumwell, Ralph de Crophil,
knights, Will. son of Rich. de Burton, Rob. de Burstall of the same
town, Thomas le Palmer of the same, Rob Jorce cousin of the said Rob.
de Lughburgh, Rob. le Ster of the same .
Rich. Arre de Ebreston gave this manor of Ebreston to Rob. de Jorce and
Isolda his wife.
Their 2nd son Robert de Jorz , afterward knight, married Isabell de
Wasteneys. (18EdwII)"
etc...
* note. The sources ref. are written as it is. I suppose that 's mean
Genealogical
doc. manuscript. from Walker family who were the only descendant of
Jorz in Nott.
The genealogy given is :
"Robertus de Jortz, 8H.2 who gives:
1 Will. 30 H. 2
2 Galfridus de Georz 30 H.2 & Agnes vidua superstes 13 Joh.
2.1 Ralph & Cecilia de Marteney
2.2 Rich. de Jorz miles who gives:
2.2.1Thomas de Jorz (Cardinal)**,
2.2.2 Walter**,
2.2.3 Roland**,
2.2.4 Will.**,
2.2.5 ? & Will. de Burton**
2.2.6 ? & Rob. de Risley**
2.2.7
Dom. Robertus de Jorce*, superst. 1E.2 Isolda-Idolna superst. 12E.2
*The burrial stone with Segrave Blason.
2.2.7.1 Will. & Agnes
2.2.7.2 Rich.
2.2.7.3 Rob &(1347) Isab. de Wasteney daughter of Will & Johana Bret
2.2.7.3.1 John & Mathilde
2.2.7.3.1.1 Rob.
2.2.7.3.1.2 John a daugther cecilia married Rob de Hauwburgh
2.2.7.3.1.3 Will. a daughter elianora married John Walker of Eperston"
etc...
** I got this information from a thesis on Card. Thomas de Jorz.
We can also read the description of the tomb and the church windows as:
"In the noth side of the church is a plain stone tomb, whereon lyeth
the image of an armed knight , on whose shield is embossed a bend and
on it 3 waterbougetts; and on one shield on the south side of the tomb
is a lion rampant crowned (Segrave blason)
and upon another shield the same with that on his arm?.
In the east window of the chancel is represented a women praying viz:
on her knees her upper coat is paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable, 3 waterbougets Argent.
In the same window is Azure a Bend between six Escallops argent with a
Mullet on the Bend, Frechville.
In the same also --------Azure a fesse Arg. between ----------
in another south window , -----paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable 3 waterbougets Arg, Jorz I suppose." etc...
The description of the windows is valuable because I think the windows
don't exist anymore.
It 's not the case of the armories on the stone tomb still visible.
As I said we can have more informations on Jorce family. See for
example the prosopography of Keat Rohan.
Concerning the hypothesis Prestwold=Jorz branch.
I will try to see if it works.
Any hints are wellcome. Thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Jean Jacques.
PS: I have trouble with my newsgroup server. It 's the reason why I use
google some time.
John P. Ravilious a écrit :
I can give you the transcription of interesting info. on Jorz family
from Antiquities of Notts.:
....
"a.[Rot. Pip. 30 H2 Warw: & Legrecest] Galfr. de Georz 30 HII gave
account of xxs that the deed or charter which he had of Will. de Georz
concerning the land of Littlebury (Loughborough) should be read in the
kings court.
b. [Pip. 13 John & rot: ii: Test de Nev.]Agnes was wife of Geof. (13
John)
c[ Autog. pen. J. Walker de Eperston, Gen.] *
Galfr. de Jorz paid 2 marks for one knights fee in Burton during HIII
reign afterward Rich. de Jorz was found to holda knight fee of Oliver
de Eyncourt , who held it of the king of the old feoffment.
Rob. de Jorce of Burton , son of Rich. Jorce , knight, settled his
manor of burton by bulcote, and 32 shillings rent, with the
appartenances in Hokkesworth, and 3 mess. and 5 bov. in Gedeling and 41
shillings rent in Ester-Leyk in this cowntry (Nott.), 14 mess.
and 14 virgats of land with appartenances in Bakewell in derbyshire
and 1 mess. and 1 carr. of land and 32 acres of meadow and 13l... rent,
with appartenances in Lugtheburgh (Loughborough) in Leicestershire, on
Rich. his son and the heirs male of his body laufully begotten;
remainder to Rob de Jorz another son of his; remainder to Will another
son of his; remainder to the right heirs of the said Rob. de Jorz the
father; on whole seal , as upon divers other of his family is a Bend
charged with tree Waterbougets. This deed bears date at Burton Jorce
1EdwII
witnesses: John de Herrys, Ralph de Crumwell, Ralph de Crophil,
knights, Will. son of Rich. de Burton, Rob. de Burstall of the same
town, Thomas le Palmer of the same, Rob Jorce cousin of the said Rob.
de Lughburgh, Rob. le Ster of the same .
Rich. Arre de Ebreston gave this manor of Ebreston to Rob. de Jorce and
Isolda his wife.
Their 2nd son Robert de Jorz , afterward knight, married Isabell de
Wasteneys. (18EdwII)"
etc...
* note. The sources ref. are written as it is. I suppose that 's mean
Genealogical
doc. manuscript. from Walker family who were the only descendant of
Jorz in Nott.
The genealogy given is :
"Robertus de Jortz, 8H.2 who gives:
1 Will. 30 H. 2
2 Galfridus de Georz 30 H.2 & Agnes vidua superstes 13 Joh.
2.1 Ralph & Cecilia de Marteney
2.2 Rich. de Jorz miles who gives:
2.2.1Thomas de Jorz (Cardinal)**,
2.2.2 Walter**,
2.2.3 Roland**,
2.2.4 Will.**,
2.2.5 ? & Will. de Burton**
2.2.6 ? & Rob. de Risley**
2.2.7
Dom. Robertus de Jorce*, superst. 1E.2 Isolda-Idolna superst. 12E.2
*The burrial stone with Segrave Blason.
2.2.7.1 Will. & Agnes
2.2.7.2 Rich.
2.2.7.3 Rob &(1347) Isab. de Wasteney daughter of Will & Johana Bret
2.2.7.3.1 John & Mathilde
2.2.7.3.1.1 Rob.
2.2.7.3.1.2 John a daugther cecilia married Rob de Hauwburgh
2.2.7.3.1.3 Will. a daughter elianora married John Walker of Eperston"
etc...
** I got this information from a thesis on Card. Thomas de Jorz.
We can also read the description of the tomb and the church windows as:
"In the noth side of the church is a plain stone tomb, whereon lyeth
the image of an armed knight , on whose shield is embossed a bend and
on it 3 waterbougetts; and on one shield on the south side of the tomb
is a lion rampant crowned (Segrave blason)
and upon another shield the same with that on his arm?.
In the east window of the chancel is represented a women praying viz:
on her knees her upper coat is paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable, 3 waterbougets Argent.
In the same window is Azure a Bend between six Escallops argent with a
Mullet on the Bend, Frechville.
In the same also --------Azure a fesse Arg. between ----------
in another south window , -----paly of six or and gules on a bend
sable 3 waterbougets Arg, Jorz I suppose." etc...
The description of the windows is valuable because I think the windows
don't exist anymore.
It 's not the case of the armories on the stone tomb still visible.
As I said we can have more informations on Jorce family. See for
example the prosopography of Keat Rohan.
Concerning the hypothesis Prestwold=Jorz branch.
I will try to see if it works.
Any hints are wellcome. Thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Jean Jacques.
PS: I have trouble with my newsgroup server. It 's the reason why I use
google some time.
John P. Ravilious a écrit :
Dear JeanJacques,
I agree that there is likely a connection between the Despensers
and the Jorz family beyond that of land tenure; however, to date I have
not found one. The next chance I have to obtain a copy of the
Antiquities of Notts. you mention below, I will see what details may be
there re: the Jorz family.
It was not until ca. 1208 when we find a marriage between the
Despensers and the Segraves. It is possible that there was no marriage
with the Jorz family; it is also possible that one or more did occur,
but successes in locating connections in the period 1086 to say 1200
are few and far between.
Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
Cheers,
John