According to her proof of age, published at CIPM 22:335, Margery
Berners was born at West Horsley, Surrey, on Nov. 30, 1408. Does
this raise a doubt as to whether she was daughter of Richard
Berners by his 2nd wife, Philippe Dallingridge? I show the date of
Richard and Philippe's marriage settlement as June 1, 1409 (source
not immediately retrievable). Is it plausible that the settlement was
dated more than a year after the marriage? Perhaps if the text of the
settlement could be found it would reveal whether the couple were
married by that date or not.
Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
Dear Brice ~
One further note.
The helpful online National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp) gives the
following document involving Richard Berners and his 2nd wife, Philippe
Dallingridge:
E 326/8873
(1) Parties: Thomas Knolles, citizen and alderman of London, William
son of William Cheyne of co. Sussex, Philip Amondesham and Richard atte
Sonde of co. Surrey & Richard Berners and Philippa his wife. Place and
Subject: The manor and advowson of West Horsley (West Horsele) and
lands etc. Date: 10 Henry IV [1408-1409]. END OF QUOTE.
I assume the above record is a settlement made at the time of Richard
Berners' marriage to Philippe Dallingridge, which kind of settlement
was typical in this time period. If that is correct, then Philippe
Dallingridge would not be the mother of Richard Berners' daughter,
Margery. The regnal year, 10 Henry IV, commences on 30 September 1408,
whereas you show that Richard Berners' daughter, Margery, was born 30
November 1408.
I believe the above settlement is probably the record by which we know
that Richard Berners and Philippe Dallingridge were married before 1
June 1409. However, the actual document would have to be examined to
see if it is dated 1 June 1409.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clagett, Brice" wrote:
One further note.
The helpful online National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp) gives the
following document involving Richard Berners and his 2nd wife, Philippe
Dallingridge:
E 326/8873
(1) Parties: Thomas Knolles, citizen and alderman of London, William
son of William Cheyne of co. Sussex, Philip Amondesham and Richard atte
Sonde of co. Surrey & Richard Berners and Philippa his wife. Place and
Subject: The manor and advowson of West Horsley (West Horsele) and
lands etc. Date: 10 Henry IV [1408-1409]. END OF QUOTE.
I assume the above record is a settlement made at the time of Richard
Berners' marriage to Philippe Dallingridge, which kind of settlement
was typical in this time period. If that is correct, then Philippe
Dallingridge would not be the mother of Richard Berners' daughter,
Margery. The regnal year, 10 Henry IV, commences on 30 September 1408,
whereas you show that Richard Berners' daughter, Margery, was born 30
November 1408.
I believe the above settlement is probably the record by which we know
that Richard Berners and Philippe Dallingridge were married before 1
June 1409. However, the actual document would have to be examined to
see if it is dated 1 June 1409.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clagett, Brice" wrote:
According to her proof of age, published at CIPM 22:335, Margery
Berners was born at West Horsley, Surrey, on Nov. 30, 1408. Does
this raise a doubt as to whether she was daughter of Richard
Berners by his 2nd wife, Philippe Dallingridge? I show the date of
Richard and Philippe's marriage settlement as June 1, 1409 (source
not immediately retrievable). Is it plausible that the settlement was
dated more than a year after the marriage? Perhaps if the text of the
settlement could be found it would reveal whether the couple were
married by that date or not.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
Dear Brice ~
Thank you for your good post. You've raised an excellent question.
I show that Richard Berners, Esq., of West Horsley, Sussex, married
(1st) before 15 November 1405 Isabel Moleyns, widow of Robert Morley,
Knt. He subsequently married (2nd) before 1 June 1409 Philippe
Dallingridge, who survived him. Richard Berners, Esq., died 6 August
1412.
Originally there was some question as to which of Richard Berners'
wives was the mother of his daughter, Margery, who, as you indicate,
was born 30 November 1408. However, back in 2001, Chris Phillips
posted a message in which he quoted from VCH Surrey, vol.3, pg. 353,
which states that at Philippe Dallingridge's death, her heir was stated
to be Margery the daughter of Richard de Berners, Margery then being
the wife of John Fereby. The source for this information is stated to
be Chancery Inquisition Post Mortem 9 Henry V, no. 24.
If so, I suspect that VCH Surrey has misinterpreted Philippe
Dallingridge's IPM. Philippe's heir was surely her son, Roger Lewknor,
not Margery Berners. That Roger Lewknor was Philippe Dallingridge's
son is proven by the fact that Roger Lewknor was heir in 1471 to
Philippe's brother, Richard Dallingridge, Esq., by which he inherited
Bodiam Castle, Iford, Iden, Raddingdean, and Bolebrook (in Hartfield),
Sussex, and Lockerley, Hampshire.
What I think Philippe Dallingridge's IPM actually states is that she
held various properties in dower of her marriage to Richard Berners,
and, that at Philippe's death, that Margery, Richard's daughter, was
the heir to those properties. I assume there is no direct statement
that Philippe was Margery's mother. If correct, then it is entirely
feasible I think that Margery Berners was the daughter of Isabel
Moleyns, not Philippe Dallingridge.
An abstract of Philippe Dallingridge's IPM should be available in
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 21, which volume is not
available here in Salt Lake City. If anyone has access to this volume,
I'd appreciate it greatly if they would post particulars regarding this
inquisiton here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clagett, Brice" wrote:
Thank you for your good post. You've raised an excellent question.
I show that Richard Berners, Esq., of West Horsley, Sussex, married
(1st) before 15 November 1405 Isabel Moleyns, widow of Robert Morley,
Knt. He subsequently married (2nd) before 1 June 1409 Philippe
Dallingridge, who survived him. Richard Berners, Esq., died 6 August
1412.
Originally there was some question as to which of Richard Berners'
wives was the mother of his daughter, Margery, who, as you indicate,
was born 30 November 1408. However, back in 2001, Chris Phillips
posted a message in which he quoted from VCH Surrey, vol.3, pg. 353,
which states that at Philippe Dallingridge's death, her heir was stated
to be Margery the daughter of Richard de Berners, Margery then being
the wife of John Fereby. The source for this information is stated to
be Chancery Inquisition Post Mortem 9 Henry V, no. 24.
If so, I suspect that VCH Surrey has misinterpreted Philippe
Dallingridge's IPM. Philippe's heir was surely her son, Roger Lewknor,
not Margery Berners. That Roger Lewknor was Philippe Dallingridge's
son is proven by the fact that Roger Lewknor was heir in 1471 to
Philippe's brother, Richard Dallingridge, Esq., by which he inherited
Bodiam Castle, Iford, Iden, Raddingdean, and Bolebrook (in Hartfield),
Sussex, and Lockerley, Hampshire.
What I think Philippe Dallingridge's IPM actually states is that she
held various properties in dower of her marriage to Richard Berners,
and, that at Philippe's death, that Margery, Richard's daughter, was
the heir to those properties. I assume there is no direct statement
that Philippe was Margery's mother. If correct, then it is entirely
feasible I think that Margery Berners was the daughter of Isabel
Moleyns, not Philippe Dallingridge.
An abstract of Philippe Dallingridge's IPM should be available in
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 21, which volume is not
available here in Salt Lake City. If anyone has access to this volume,
I'd appreciate it greatly if they would post particulars regarding this
inquisiton here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clagett, Brice" wrote:
According to her proof of age, published at CIPM 22:335, Margery
Berners was born at West Horsley, Surrey, on Nov. 30, 1408. Does
this raise a doubt as to whether she was daughter of Richard
Berners by his 2nd wife, Philippe Dallingridge? I show the date of
Richard and Philippe's marriage settlement as June 1, 1409 (source
not immediately retrievable). Is it plausible that the settlement was
dated more than a year after the marriage? Perhaps if the text of the
settlement could be found it would reveal whether the couple were
married by that date or not.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
Dear Brice ~
One further note.
The helpful online National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp) gives the
following document involving Richard Berners and his 2nd wife, Philippe
Dallingridge:
E 326/8873
(1) Parties: Thomas Knolles, citizen and alderman of London, William
son of William Cheyne of co. Sussex, Philip Amondesham and Richard atte
Sonde of co. Surrey & Richard Berners and Philippa his wife. Place and
Subject: The manor and advowson of West Horsley (West Horsele) and
lands etc. Date: 10 Henry IV [1408-1409]. END OF QUOTE.
I assume the above record is a settlement made at the time of Richard
Berners' marriage to Philippe Dallingridge, which kind of settlement
was typical in this time period. If that is correct, then Philippe
Dallingridge would not be the mother of Richard Berners' daughter,
Margery. The regnal year, 10 Henry IV, commences on 30 September 1408,
whereas you show that Richard Berners' daughter, Margery, was born 30
November 1408.
I believe the above settlement is probably the record by which we know
that Richard Berners and Philippe Dallingridge were married before 1
June 1409. However, the actual document would have to be examined to
see if it is dated 1 June 1409.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
One further note.
The helpful online National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp) gives the
following document involving Richard Berners and his 2nd wife, Philippe
Dallingridge:
E 326/8873
(1) Parties: Thomas Knolles, citizen and alderman of London, William
son of William Cheyne of co. Sussex, Philip Amondesham and Richard atte
Sonde of co. Surrey & Richard Berners and Philippa his wife. Place and
Subject: The manor and advowson of West Horsley (West Horsele) and
lands etc. Date: 10 Henry IV [1408-1409]. END OF QUOTE.
I assume the above record is a settlement made at the time of Richard
Berners' marriage to Philippe Dallingridge, which kind of settlement
was typical in this time period. If that is correct, then Philippe
Dallingridge would not be the mother of Richard Berners' daughter,
Margery. The regnal year, 10 Henry IV, commences on 30 September 1408,
whereas you show that Richard Berners' daughter, Margery, was born 30
November 1408.
I believe the above settlement is probably the record by which we know
that Richard Berners and Philippe Dallingridge were married before 1
June 1409. However, the actual document would have to be examined to
see if it is dated 1 June 1409.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Gjest
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
dear Douglas and all
the 3 writs refering to "Philippa widow of Thomas Leukenor" in vol. 21
of Calendar of inquisitions post portem (number 727, 728 and 729) shows
her heir as "Margery, her and Richard Berners's daughter"
(I apology for my english which is very approximate !!)
Douglas Richardson wrote:
the 3 writs refering to "Philippa widow of Thomas Leukenor" in vol. 21
of Calendar of inquisitions post portem (number 727, 728 and 729) shows
her heir as "Margery, her and Richard Berners's daughter"
(I apology for my english which is very approximate !!)
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Brice ~
Thank you for your good post. You've raised an excellent question.
I show that Richard Berners, Esq., of West Horsley, Sussex, married
(1st) before 15 November 1405 Isabel Moleyns, widow of Robert Morley,
Knt. He subsequently married (2nd) before 1 June 1409 Philippe
Dallingridge, who survived him. Richard Berners, Esq., died 6 August
1412.
Originally there was some question as to which of Richard Berners'
wives was the mother of his daughter, Margery, who, as you indicate,
was born 30 November 1408. However, back in 2001, Chris Phillips
posted a message in which he quoted from VCH Surrey, vol.3, pg. 353,
which states that at Philippe Dallingridge's death, her heir was stated
to be Margery the daughter of Richard de Berners, Margery then being
the wife of John Fereby. The source for this information is stated to
be Chancery Inquisition Post Mortem 9 Henry V, no. 24.
If so, I suspect that VCH Surrey has misinterpreted Philippe
Dallingridge's IPM. Philippe's heir was surely her son, Roger Lewknor,
not Margery Berners. That Roger Lewknor was Philippe Dallingridge's
son is proven by the fact that Roger Lewknor was heir in 1471 to
Philippe's brother, Richard Dallingridge, Esq., by which he inherited
Bodiam Castle, Iford, Iden, Raddingdean, and Bolebrook (in Hartfield),
Sussex, and Lockerley, Hampshire.
What I think Philippe Dallingridge's IPM actually states is that she
held various properties in dower of her marriage to Richard Berners,
and, that at Philippe's death, that Margery, Richard's daughter, was
the heir to those properties. I assume there is no direct statement
that Philippe was Margery's mother. If correct, then it is entirely
feasible I think that Margery Berners was the daughter of Isabel
Moleyns, not Philippe Dallingridge.
An abstract of Philippe Dallingridge's IPM should be available in
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 21, which volume is not
available here in Salt Lake City. If anyone has access to this volume,
I'd appreciate it greatly if they would post particulars regarding this
inquisiton here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Cty, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clagett, Brice" wrote:
According to her proof of age, published at CIPM 22:335, Margery
Berners was born at West Horsley, Surrey, on Nov. 30, 1408. Does
this raise a doubt as to whether she was daughter of Richard
Berners by his 2nd wife, Philippe Dallingridge? I show the date of
Richard and Philippe's marriage settlement as June 1, 1409 (source
not immediately retrievable). Is it plausible that the settlement was
dated more than a year after the marriage? Perhaps if the text of the
settlement could be found it would reveal whether the couple were
married by that date or not.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
eric.francois49@wanadoo.fr wrote:
Dear Eric ~
Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.
I assume that the lands that Philippe (Dallingridge) (Berners) Lewknor
held at her death were all properties held in dower of her first
marriage to Richard Berners, Esq. If you have access to Philippe's
inquisitions, perhaps you can post a list of her properties given in
these documents. Also, what is the age of Margery given in the
inquisitions?
If the properties all belonged to the Berners family, then the heir to
those properties would be Richard Berners' daughter, regardless if
Philippe was the child's mother. The inquisition should be worded in
such a way as to indicate that Margery was heir to the propeties, not
heir to Philippe, although sometimes the language is inexact.
My research indicates that Philippe Dalingridge's true heir was her son
by her 2nd marriage, namely Roger Lewknor. Is Roger Lewknor mentioned
in the inquistions at all?
By the way, if you feel more comfortable posting in French, by all
means, please do so.
Encore, merci beaucoup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
dear Douglas and all
the 3 writs refering to "Philippa widow of Thomas Leukenor" in vol. 21
of Calendar of inquisitions post portem (number 727, 728 and 729) shows
her heir as "Margery, her and Richard Berners's daughter"
(I apology for my english which is very approximate !!)
Dear Eric ~
Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.
I assume that the lands that Philippe (Dallingridge) (Berners) Lewknor
held at her death were all properties held in dower of her first
marriage to Richard Berners, Esq. If you have access to Philippe's
inquisitions, perhaps you can post a list of her properties given in
these documents. Also, what is the age of Margery given in the
inquisitions?
If the properties all belonged to the Berners family, then the heir to
those properties would be Richard Berners' daughter, regardless if
Philippe was the child's mother. The inquisition should be worded in
such a way as to indicate that Margery was heir to the propeties, not
heir to Philippe, although sometimes the language is inexact.
My research indicates that Philippe Dalingridge's true heir was her son
by her 2nd marriage, namely Roger Lewknor. Is Roger Lewknor mentioned
in the inquistions at all?
By the way, if you feel more comfortable posting in French, by all
means, please do so.
Encore, merci beaucoup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Gjest
Re: Cudworth/Lewknor/Echingham
Dear Douglas
thanks for your reply. It's a good occasion to improve my english !!
727 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq. in West Horsley, Surrey (7 nov 1420): she
held for life the manor of West Horsley by the king's licence to her
and Richard Berners. Margery is aged 11 years and more.
728 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq in Islington, Middlesex (4 dec 1421) : she
held in dower 1/3 manor of Berners in Islington from her former
husband "of the inheritance of her and Richard's daughter Margery wife
of John Feriby".
Margery is said aged 12 years and more.
729 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq in Icklingham, Surrey (13 nov 1421) : she
held in dower 1/3 manor of Berners in Icklingham (held of Lucy
countess of Kent). Margery is aged 12 years and more.
Margery's age agree with her proof of age.
the date of death of Philippa is always 2 oct 1420.
no more details and curiously Roger Lewknor is never mentioned.
Sincerely, Eric François.
thanks for your reply. It's a good occasion to improve my english !!
727 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq. in West Horsley, Surrey (7 nov 1420): she
held for life the manor of West Horsley by the king's licence to her
and Richard Berners. Margery is aged 11 years and more.
728 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq in Islington, Middlesex (4 dec 1421) : she
held in dower 1/3 manor of Berners in Islington from her former
husband "of the inheritance of her and Richard's daughter Margery wife
of John Feriby".
Margery is said aged 12 years and more.
729 Writ 28 oct 1420. Inq in Icklingham, Surrey (13 nov 1421) : she
held in dower 1/3 manor of Berners in Icklingham (held of Lucy
countess of Kent). Margery is aged 12 years and more.
Margery's age agree with her proof of age.
the date of death of Philippa is always 2 oct 1420.
no more details and curiously Roger Lewknor is never mentioned.
Sincerely, Eric François.