A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farrar

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Clive West

A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farrar

Legg inn av Clive West » 23 jan 2006 01:33:01

In his pedigree of the de Arden family John Ravilious refers to the dispute between Thomas de Arden and his cousin John de Bracebridge concerning ownership of the manor of Kingsbury in Warwicks. (curia regis roll 48, 1208 m.9). It is interesting to note that de Bracebridge based his successful claim on the fact that he was descended from Leofrun (Thorkell's second wife) who held Kingsbury in her own right as her maritagium. Now as Thorkell and Leofrun were probably married in the last quarter of the 11th century, it might be possible to identify the origins of Leofrun if we knew who held Kingsbury at this time. Does anyone have this information? In 1066 it was held by Lady Godiva.

Another interesting feature of this case is that Thomas de Arden initially suggested that the dispute should be settled by armed combat and generously offered his freeman William de Kopland to fight the duel on his behalf. Does anybody know what the rules were for these judicial combats (quite common in the 13th century) and how the result was decided?

CNW

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 23 jan 2006 05:16:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clive West" <clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farrar


In his pedigree of the de Arden family John Ravilious refers to the
dispute between Thomas de Arden and his cousin John de Bracebridge

concerning ownership of the manor of Kingsbury in Warwicks. (curia regis
roll 48, 1208 m.9). It is interesting to note that de Bracebridge based his
successful claim on the fact that he was descended from Leofrun (Thorkell's
second wife) who held Kingsbury in her own right as her maritagium. Now as
Thorkell and Leofrun were probably married in the last quarter of the 11th
century, it might be possible to identify the origins of Leofrun if we knew
who held Kingsbury at this time. Does anyone have this information? In 1066
it was held by Lady Godiva.

It seems to me that you are indicating that Leofrun MIGHT be the daughter of
Godiva. Since Godiva's husband was Leofric, such a reconstruction would
certainly make onomastic sense.
Respectfully,
Ford

'Men no longer aspire to win praise for noble deeds,
but think only of profit, profit, profit.
Clutching their money, always looking for more.
too stingy to give away the tarnish that comes off their coins!'
- Theocritus, XVIth Idyll

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 jan 2006 08:42:21

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

It seems to me that you are indicating that Leofrun MIGHT be the daughter of
Godiva. Since Godiva's husband was Leofric, such a reconstruction would
certainly make onomastic sense.

But terribly long chronology.

taf

Clive West

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Clive West » 23 jan 2006 09:44:01

No, I don't think Leofrun was the daughter of Godiva because she was of the
wrong generation, though she may have been a grandchild. However Kingsbury
does not appear to have been held by a relative of Godiva in 1086.

CNW

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:53 AM


It seems to me that you are indicating that Leofrun MIGHT be the daughter
of
Godiva. Since Godiva's husband was Leofric, such a reconstruction would
certainly make onomastic sense.
Respectfully,
Ford

Gjest

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 jan 2006 01:41:05

Am I not correct in thinking that there is no mention at all of Leofrun
before 1208?

Ian.

Gjest

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jan 2006 00:37:32

Have you seen Keats-Rohan, K.S.B.(1989) The making of Henry of Oxford:
Englishmen in a Norman World, Oxoniensa, 54, pp.301-304? Apparently
this discusses the idea that Thorkell's paternal grandfather was
married to a sister of Earl Leofric. I have seen the evidence for this
described as late and largely unverifiable, (as might be expected).

Ian.

Clive West

Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farra

Legg inn av Clive West » 25 jan 2006 19:06:01

I haven't seen this article but as the identity of Thorkell's paternal
grandfather is uncertain (possibly Beortwine according to Ann Williams),
there seems little point in speculating about who his wife was.

A more definite connection between the de Arden family and the earls of
Mercia is through his daughter-in-law Cecily, wife of his son Siward. There
is convincing evidence that Cecily was the daughter of Osbern fitzRichard
(of Richard's Castle) whose wife Nest (if we are to trust the combined
reports of Orderic Vitalis, Giraldus Cambrensis and Florence of Worcester)
was a granddaughter of Aelfgar, son of Leofric.

CNW

----- Original Message -----
From: <shrowl@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: A Domesday descent: Thorkill of Warwick to William Farrar


Have you seen Keats-Rohan, K.S.B.(1989) The making of Henry of Oxford:
Englishmen in a Norman World, Oxoniensa, 54, pp.301-304? Apparently
this discusses the idea that Thorkell's paternal grandfather was
married to a sister of Earl Leofric. I have seen the evidence for this
described as late and largely unverifiable, (as might be expected).

Ian.

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