Marjorie Chibnall, in her book "The Empress Matilda", records that the
Emperor Henry IV married his illegitimate daughter, Bertha, to Count
Ptolemy of Tusculum. Cited for this is the Chronica Monasterii
Casinensis. The name Ptolemy is rather exotic, derived from the Greek
Ptolemaios, "warlike", from ptolemos (modern Greek polemos). Does
anyone have an accurate genealogy of the counts of Tusculum, where this
Ptolemy fits in, and any descendants he and Bertha might have?
Count Ptolemy of Tusculum
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Kelsey Williams
Re: Count Ptolemy of Tusculum
Mississippienne@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
Fortunately the Chronicle of Monte Cassino is readily available online
at:
http://mdz1.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00000604/ ... tiveno=524
and the following can be readily gleaned from it:
p. 524 (1116/17) - Ptolomeus II, Count of Tusculum, "son of the most
magnificent Ptolomeus, consul of the Romans," and grandson of
Gregorious, married Bertha, [illegitimate] daughter of Emperor Heinrich
V [sic in note 4].
He left a son, Reginulfus (pp. 600-601) but the Chronicle doesn't
appear to follow his descendants any further. Judging from the
footnotes you might want to check Hartmut Hoffmann, "Petrus Diaconus,
die Herren von Tusculum und der sturz Oderisius' II. von Montecassino,"
_Deutsches Archiv_ 27 (1971): 1-109. Sardimpex has a skeletal
genealogy of this family sub Colonna but it looks as though it's based
on rather outdated sources.
As for Ptolomeus II's ancestry, that can easily be gleaned from the
chronicle. He was, as already mentioned, son of Count Ptolomeus I who
was, in turn, son of Count Gregorius III, son of Count Gregorius II who
d. 5 April 1058 (CMC, 356) and who was the brother of Pope Benedict IX
and son of Albericus, described as a patrician from Tusculum by the
Chronicle (CMC, 285). This Albericus was, in fact, Albericus III,
consul & Count of Tusculum (d. ca. 1044) who was himself the son of
Count Gregorius I (d. before 1013), grandson and great-nephew of the
infamous Theodora and Marozia, respectively. For the counts of
Tusculum prior to Gregorius II and particularly for their intimate
connections with the papacy see Lindsay Brook, "Popes and Pornocrats:
Rome in the Early Middle Ages," _Foundations: Journal of the Foundation
for Medieval Genealogy_ 1.1 (January 2003):5-21.
The name Ptolomeus doesn't appear in the family of the counts of
Tusculum prior to Ptolomeus I which makes it tempting to suppose that
it may derive from the family of Gregorius III's wife (whoever she may
have been).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Marjorie Chibnall, in her book "The Empress Matilda", records that the
Emperor Henry IV married his illegitimate daughter, Bertha, to Count
Ptolemy of Tusculum. Cited for this is the Chronica Monasterii
Casinensis. The name Ptolemy is rather exotic, derived from the Greek
Ptolemaios, "warlike", from ptolemos (modern Greek polemos). Does
anyone have an accurate genealogy of the counts of Tusculum, where this
Ptolemy fits in, and any descendants he and Bertha might have?
Hello,
Fortunately the Chronicle of Monte Cassino is readily available online
at:
http://mdz1.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00000604/ ... tiveno=524
and the following can be readily gleaned from it:
p. 524 (1116/17) - Ptolomeus II, Count of Tusculum, "son of the most
magnificent Ptolomeus, consul of the Romans," and grandson of
Gregorious, married Bertha, [illegitimate] daughter of Emperor Heinrich
V [sic in note 4].
He left a son, Reginulfus (pp. 600-601) but the Chronicle doesn't
appear to follow his descendants any further. Judging from the
footnotes you might want to check Hartmut Hoffmann, "Petrus Diaconus,
die Herren von Tusculum und der sturz Oderisius' II. von Montecassino,"
_Deutsches Archiv_ 27 (1971): 1-109. Sardimpex has a skeletal
genealogy of this family sub Colonna but it looks as though it's based
on rather outdated sources.
As for Ptolomeus II's ancestry, that can easily be gleaned from the
chronicle. He was, as already mentioned, son of Count Ptolomeus I who
was, in turn, son of Count Gregorius III, son of Count Gregorius II who
d. 5 April 1058 (CMC, 356) and who was the brother of Pope Benedict IX
and son of Albericus, described as a patrician from Tusculum by the
Chronicle (CMC, 285). This Albericus was, in fact, Albericus III,
consul & Count of Tusculum (d. ca. 1044) who was himself the son of
Count Gregorius I (d. before 1013), grandson and great-nephew of the
infamous Theodora and Marozia, respectively. For the counts of
Tusculum prior to Gregorius II and particularly for their intimate
connections with the papacy see Lindsay Brook, "Popes and Pornocrats:
Rome in the Early Middle Ages," _Foundations: Journal of the Foundation
for Medieval Genealogy_ 1.1 (January 2003):5-21.
The name Ptolomeus doesn't appear in the family of the counts of
Tusculum prior to Ptolomeus I which makes it tempting to suppose that
it may derive from the family of Gregorius III's wife (whoever she may
have been).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Count Ptolemy of Tusculum
Dear 'Mississippie', Kelsey, et al.,
Most interesting. Thanks for this 'unusual' line.
I might note, it is more likely that Henry V had an illegitimate
daughter Bertha, vs. his father Henry IV. Henry IV m. Bertha of Savoy
(or Maurienne, if you prefer), so it would seem unlikely his
illegitimate dau. would have been named Bertha - certainly would
otherwise have made for interesting tabletalk at dinnertime.....
Cheers,
John
Kelsey Williams wrote:
Most interesting. Thanks for this 'unusual' line.
I might note, it is more likely that Henry V had an illegitimate
daughter Bertha, vs. his father Henry IV. Henry IV m. Bertha of Savoy
(or Maurienne, if you prefer), so it would seem unlikely his
illegitimate dau. would have been named Bertha - certainly would
otherwise have made for interesting tabletalk at dinnertime.....
Cheers,
John
Kelsey Williams wrote:
Mississippienne@gmail.com wrote:
Marjorie Chibnall, in her book "The Empress Matilda", records that the
Emperor Henry IV married his illegitimate daughter, Bertha, to Count
Ptolemy of Tusculum. Cited for this is the Chronica Monasterii
Casinensis. The name Ptolemy is rather exotic, derived from the Greek
Ptolemaios, "warlike", from ptolemos (modern Greek polemos). Does
anyone have an accurate genealogy of the counts of Tusculum, where this
Ptolemy fits in, and any descendants he and Bertha might have?
Hello,
Fortunately the Chronicle of Monte Cassino is readily available online
at:
http://mdz1.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00000604/ ... tiveno=524
and the following can be readily gleaned from it:
p. 524 (1116/17) - Ptolomeus II, Count of Tusculum, "son of the most
magnificent Ptolomeus, consul of the Romans," and grandson of
Gregorious, married Bertha, [illegitimate] daughter of Emperor Heinrich
V [sic in note 4].
He left a son, Reginulfus (pp. 600-601) but the Chronicle doesn't
appear to follow his descendants any further. Judging from the
footnotes you might want to check Hartmut Hoffmann, "Petrus Diaconus,
die Herren von Tusculum und der sturz Oderisius' II. von Montecassino,"
_Deutsches Archiv_ 27 (1971): 1-109. Sardimpex has a skeletal
genealogy of this family sub Colonna but it looks as though it's based
on rather outdated sources.
As for Ptolomeus II's ancestry, that can easily be gleaned from the
chronicle. He was, as already mentioned, son of Count Ptolomeus I who
was, in turn, son of Count Gregorius III, son of Count Gregorius II who
d. 5 April 1058 (CMC, 356) and who was the brother of Pope Benedict IX
and son of Albericus, described as a patrician from Tusculum by the
Chronicle (CMC, 285). This Albericus was, in fact, Albericus III,
consul & Count of Tusculum (d. ca. 1044) who was himself the son of
Count Gregorius I (d. before 1013), grandson and great-nephew of the
infamous Theodora and Marozia, respectively. For the counts of
Tusculum prior to Gregorius II and particularly for their intimate
connections with the papacy see Lindsay Brook, "Popes and Pornocrats:
Rome in the Early Middle Ages," _Foundations: Journal of the Foundation
for Medieval Genealogy_ 1.1 (January 2003):5-21.
The name Ptolomeus doesn't appear in the family of the counts of
Tusculum prior to Ptolomeus I which makes it tempting to suppose that
it may derive from the family of Gregorius III's wife (whoever she may
have been).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
-
Gjest
Re: Count Ptolemy of Tusculum
John, you are indeed correct. I made a typo in my original post, the
illegitimate Bertha's father was Henry V. Henry IV and Bertha of Savoy
were her grandparents.
As a sidenote, Bruno's "Buch von Sachsenkrieg" perserves a story about
how Henry IV endeavored to get rid of Bertha by sending another man to
tempt her into adultery, so that he'd have grounds on which to divorce
her. The wiley Bertha caught onto the scheme and thrashed Henry with a
chair leg so furiously that he was bedridden for a month! Bertha of
Savoy must've been a bruiser!
illegitimate Bertha's father was Henry V. Henry IV and Bertha of Savoy
were her grandparents.
As a sidenote, Bruno's "Buch von Sachsenkrieg" perserves a story about
how Henry IV endeavored to get rid of Bertha by sending another man to
tempt her into adultery, so that he'd have grounds on which to divorce
her. The wiley Bertha caught onto the scheme and thrashed Henry with a
chair leg so furiously that he was bedridden for a month! Bertha of
Savoy must've been a bruiser!