digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of Wichn

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
jeffchip9

digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of Wichn

Legg inn av jeffchip9 » 22 jan 2006 00:21:48

I re-digitized this IPM directly from the TNA/Kew copies and at a
higher dpi; I think it's probably easier to work with (the pages are
not of the same size). I emailed 2nd gen. scans to Paul Reed, and sent
blow-ups to Michael Miller. If anyone else feels like looking at this
thing, I'll be happy to email you the better scans; the IPM consists of
11 pages (page 4 was split in half due to length).
I'm finding that people who can translate medieval latin are pretty
rare. Even the local university's (Missouri State) classics department
thought it was too much to take on (not because of the length, but
because of the handwriting).
I hope this primary evidence will bring closure to this many-faceted
topic.

jeffchip9

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av jeffchip9 » 22 jan 2006 17:45:52

By the way, there is a free Latin translation program called "Words"
available on the web at:

http://www.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

I don't think it's designed to translate large and complex documents,
but it is very helpful. I inputted "nepos" into this program, and it
said that term meant "grandson/granddaughter" or "descendant," as well
as a few other meanings not of genealogical significance. I tried
inputting "nepta" and got nothing.

Maybe the meaning of the term "nepos" has changed over the years, but
according to Whitaker it doesn't mean "nephew" or its variants.

Chris Phillips

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 22 jan 2006 18:14:52

jeffchip9 wrote:
By the way, there is a free Latin translation program called "Words"
available on the web at:

http://www.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

I don't think it's designed to translate large and complex documents,
but it is very helpful. I inputted "nepos" into this program, and it
said that term meant "grandson/granddaughter" or "descendant," as well
as a few other meanings not of genealogical significance. I tried
inputting "nepta" and got nothing.

Maybe the meaning of the term "nepos" has changed over the years, but
according to Whitaker it doesn't mean "nephew" or its variants.


The problem is that the website states that "Present emphisis [sic] is on
classical Latin and late Latin, but medieval Latin entries are increasing."
One has to be a bit wary of using classical Latin dictionaries to interpret
medieval Latin. "Nepos" certainly could mean "nephew" in medieval times.

There are some good Latin word lists with more of a medieval emphasis
available on the Internet:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/gui ... tml#latvoc

Chris Phillips

jeffchip9

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av jeffchip9 » 22 jan 2006 19:38:18

Chris--
I looked at your material. Tze-Kwan's "Latin-English Dictionary"
translates "nepos" as "grandson." The reference below this, White
Trash Scriptorium tranlates it as "nephew." Some of these dictionaries
don't recognize the word. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that there
was uniformity of opinion on this topic.

I do not like giving genealogical terms a different meaning than their
usual or customary one in order to bolster a theory. The terms as used
above indicate a blood relationship. I recognize the fact that terms
can have somewhat different meanings in the medieval period, but I
think it would be prudent to be sure that it really is the case in a
given situation.

I find "Words" to be useful and it's available on my desktop. There
are commercial programs based on it. I appreciate learning of other
sources. I don't think any of them are capable of easily translating
the 1471 IPM of Sir John Griffith. I reiterate my offer to send the
scans to anybody who wants to see it whether they are capable of
translating it or not.

Jeff Chipman

Chris Phillips

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 22 jan 2006 20:31:05

Jeff Chipman wrote:
I looked at your material. Tze-Kwan's "Latin-English Dictionary"
translates "nepos" as "grandson." The reference below this, White
Trash Scriptorium tranlates it as "nephew." Some of these dictionaries
don't recognize the word. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that there
was uniformity of opinion on this topic.

I do not like giving genealogical terms a different meaning than their
usual or customary one in order to bolster a theory. The terms as used
above indicate a blood relationship. I recognize the fact that terms
can have somewhat different meanings in the medieval period, but I
think it would be prudent to be sure that it really is the case in a
given situation.


I don't think anyone familiar with medieval Latin will deny that "nephew"
was a possible meaning of "nepos" in medieval times. (I'm rather surprised
that Lynn Nelson's Word List, on which Tze-wan Kwan's dictionary is based,
doesn't include this meaning.)

This has been discussed - together with the looser usage of "younger
kinsman" - quite a lot in the past, and you should be able to find some
examples in the archives. Unfortunately it's one of those words whose
meaning was ambiguous. However, if it's used to describe the relationship of
the heir in an inquisition post mortem, it's likely to be followed by an
explicit explanation of the relationship (e.g. "viz the son and heir of
William Blogges deceased, who was the brother of Thomas Blogges named in the
writ").

Chris Phillips

jeffchip9

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av jeffchip9 » 22 jan 2006 21:20:51

I looked at Richardson's original post on 12 Jan about Thomas de
Blundeville, and in that thread he says "nepos" can mean "nephew",
"grandson", or "near kinsman". So according to him the term was
sometimes used to denote a "grandson" in the medieval period.

I don't know enough about IPMs to agree or disagree with Chris's
comment. Richardson cites an example in the Mortimer family which he
says shows that "nepos" can mean "near kinsman." Although a Mortimer
descendant, I don't know enough about the two men in his post to agree
or disagree with his assessment of their relationship.

I thought people might be interested in Whitaker's program, which
apparently is frequently updated and easily accessed without going
online; I do appreciate Chris's listing of other sources.

Jeff Chipman

Chris Phillips

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 22 jan 2006 23:47:52

Jeff Chipman wrote:
I don't know enough about IPMs to agree or disagree with Chris's
comment.


I really don't think there's anything controversial or difficult here.

In medieval Latin, "nepos" could have several meanings - either grandson, or
nephew, or (more loosely) a younger kinsman.

The only reason I pointed out that it could have the meaning of nephew was
that you seemed to be questioning this, on the basis of a translation
program based mainly on classical Latin.

Chris Phillips

JeffChipman

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av JeffChipman » 23 jan 2006 01:17:44

I did not say it was controversial or difficult; I said I inputted
"nepos" into Whitaker's program (which I named, so that the newsgroup
would know the source), and it gave the translation as
"grandson/daughter" and "descendant." You provided some other
websites, which I looked into, and Kwan's gave a definition as
"grandson." The site beneath (WTS) it said "nephew." You say it also
means "younger kinsman," while Richardson says "near kinsman." You
state this as if it were a fact; what is the source for this? Is there
a source which gives "near kinsman" or "younger kinsman" as a
definition or part of one? or is this just something learned from
experience? I don't have a problem with that, I just want to
understand the topic. If people don't want to use Whitaker, there are
other sources for those of us who do not know latin. There is a
program based on Whitaker's called "Blitz Latin," which has a 4000 word
medieval latin dictionary with it. There is another program called
"Quick Latin" also based on Whitaker. Both are commercial programs and
you can get info on them at the Whitaker website I gave above if you
want. I'm not recommending either one.

At this point I really don't care if I descend from Edward III or not;
as a researcher I'm happy with the Edward I lines I have, since they
give me a personal window onto life at the height of the middle ages
and I have seen his sarcophagus at Westminster; what concerns me is
that people have been writing posts on the Griffith/Tyrwhit family
without the data from Griffith's IPM, which I located and obtained so
that people researching this line in the future will have some primary
contemporary evidence to work with. I don't want a verbatim rendering,
just an abstract with the pertinent genealogical details. A prominent
translation service in the UK (Quintus) advises me they no longer do
manuscript work. Apparently translation of this document is going to
be difficult to accomplish. I have posted notices on two other boards
which might be of assistance.

I am bringing this up because frequently on this newsgroup people say
that there's an IPM or some other document that would be desirable to
consult, and without realizing that the document in question will be in
law french or medieval latin, and probably hard to read and translate,
people will try to locate this stuff. My advice would be that unless
you know someone who can help you, I would not obtain the document.
The National Archives/Kew site will tell you what the language of the
document is. I thought Kew did a great job, but there is some expense
involved, and frankly had I known the hassle involved, I would not have
ordered it. I think the Sancha de Ayala and William the Lion ancestry
is interesting; because people are interested in this stuff is why
Richardson and Roberts sell books; if they produce material on the
Griffiths, wouldn't it be advisable to use the best sources available,
along with the fragments of a "vanity scroll" or herald's visitation?

sic transit gloria mundi

Chris Phillips

Re: digitized 1471 (11 Edw.4--30) IPM Sir John Griffith of W

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 23 jan 2006 09:47:03

Jeff Chipman wrote:
You provided some other
websites, which I looked into, and Kwan's gave a definition as
"grandson." The site beneath (WTS) it said "nephew." You say it also
means "younger kinsman," while Richardson says "near kinsman." You
state this as if it were a fact; what is the source for this? Is there
a source which gives "near kinsman" or "younger kinsman" as a
definition or part of one? or is this just something learned from
experience?

As I mentioned, this is something that has been discussed here a lot in the
past, and I'm sure you can find more details in the archives.

The list on the WTS site is taken from Martin's "Record Interpreter", which
is one of the standard works of reference. The link I posted also gives
details of other printed works that aren't available online. For example,
one of these, Latham's "Revised medieval Latin word-list", gives "nephew"
and "kinsman" as meanings of "nepos".

I am bringing this up because frequently on this newsgroup people say
that there's an IPM or some other document that would be desirable to
consult, and without realizing that the document in question will be in
law french or medieval latin, and probably hard to read and translate,
people will try to locate this stuff. My advice would be that unless
you know someone who can help you, I would not obtain the document.

I don't think it is too hard to find people who can read these documents for
you, but in general you'll have to be willing to pay them for their time.

You mentioned that you'd sent the scan to Paul Reed. I'd be very surprised
if he couldn't read it, but it's fair to remember that he's a professional
genealogist, and this is his means of livelihood. If you can find someone
who's willing to do this for free, all well and good, but I don't think you
should be surprised if no one volunteers.

Chris Phillips

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»