Thursday, 19 January, 2006
Hello All,
The ongoing discussion re: Niall of the Nine Hostages, DNA, & c.
brings up the matter of specific documented (vs. alleged) descents
from the early Irish kings. One such descent is given below, that of
Aoife (or Eva), wife of William Marshall and daughter of Diarmaid mac
Murchada [aka 'Dermot MacMurrough'] from Dúnlaing, traditional
ancestor of ancestor of the Uí Dúnlainge of Leinster. The reasons
for commencing the record with Dúnlaing are shown under his name in
the pedigree.
A number of interesting individuals are included in this
particular lineage, including Gormlaith ingen Murchada
[1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1a], 3rd wife of Brian Boru and a
central figure in the history leading to Clontarf (1014). Besides
the Marshal descent as shown, she is also the ancestress of Llywelyn
ap Iorwerth, the well-known Welsh prince, by her son Sigtryggr
'Silky-Beard'.
As indicated, a number of sources have been used: I refer anyone
of the list with an interest in the matter to see the archives for
the messages and threads indicated (primarily the contributions of
Stewart Baldwin). The chronology that can be ascertained is not
problematic: from Fáelán mac Colmáin [d. 666, see #1.1.1.1.1.1] to
Aoife [d. ca. 1189] there is a span of 17 generations over approx.
523 years (birth dates not being available for a better count). The
average generation for this period is 30.7 years, which appears
reasonable - especially as the line is primarily male.
Please note also: this is only one of a number of lines tracing
back to the 6th century. Depending on the interest shown, others may
be produced for review.
Cheers,
John *
1 Dúnlaing
----------------------------------------
'Dúnlaing (also #4587584), ancestor of the sept of Uí
Dúnlainge, which monopolized the kingship of Laigin (Leinster) from
the seventh through the early eleventh centuries. [Note: As the
ancestor from whom the Uí Dúnlainge got their name, his existence can
be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived in the
mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son of Énnae
Niad, son of Bressal Bélach, son of Fiachu Ba hAiccid, son of Cathair
Már, at which point we are clearly in the mythical part of the
genealogy. Although the existence of Énnae and Bressal as father and
grandfather of Dúnlainge cannot be ruled out, neither can it be
accepted as probable. The official genealogy, which makes Dúnlaing a
first cousin of Énnae Cennselach (#9175936 below), ancestor of the Uí
Chennselaig (the other main powerful sect in Leinster during the
historical period), thus causing the two main Leinster septs to branch
off from each other just prior to the historical period, looks
suspicious, and is just as likely to be the invention of the later
pseudohistorians as genuine tradition.] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)] '[1]
Children: Ailill
Eochaid
1.1 Ailill mac Dúnlainge
----------------------------------------
'Ailill mac Dúnlainge (of Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin
(Leinster) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14);
R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, 338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)] '[1]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Cormac
1.1.1 Cormac mac Ailella
----------------------------------------
'Cormac mac Ailella (of Uí Dúnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423); WUD] [Note: He appears as king of Laigin (Leinster) in the
official king lists, but his actual status as king is doubtful. See
#286720.] '[1]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Cairpre
1.1.1.1 Cairpre mac Cormaic
----------------------------------------
'Cairpre mac Cormaic (of Uí Dúnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.338-9, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423); WUD] [Note: He appears as king of Laigin (Leinster) in the
official king lists, but his actual status as king is doubtful. See
#286720.] '[3]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Colmán
1.1.1.1.1 Colmán mac Cairpri
----------------------------------------
'Colmán mac Cairpri (of Uí Dúnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.338-40, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423); WUD] [Note: He appears as king of Laigin (Leinster) in the
official king lists, but his actual status as king is doubtful, and it
is quite likely that he, his father, and his grandfather were
retroactively added to the king lists by later Uí Dúnlainge
propogandists.] '[3]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Fedelm ingen Óengusa
Father: Óengus
Mother: Lassi ingen Fergna
Children: Fáelán (-0666)
1.1.1.1.1.1 Fáelán mac Colmáin
----------------------------------------
Death: 0666[4],[2]
king of Laigin
'Fáelán mac Colmáin (of Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 666
[CS] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a
(Rw.340, CGH.74); LL.337f (CGH.423); WUD] '[4]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Sárnat ingen Echach
Father: Eochu mac Báeth
Children: Conall
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Conall mac Fáeláin
----------------------------------------
'Conall mac Fáeláin (of Uí Dúnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); LL.337f (CGH.423); WUD] '[4]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Condadil ingen Crundmáel
Father: Crundmáel mac Fínáin
Children: Bran Mut (-0693)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Bran Mut mac Conaill
----------------------------------------
Death: 0693[5],[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster]
' Bran Mut mac Conaill (of Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 693
[AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); LL.337f (CGH.423); WUD] '[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Almaith ingen Blathmaic
Father: Blathmac mac Eogain
Mother: Etain ingen Mongáin
Children: Murchad (-0727)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Murchad mac Brain Muit
----------------------------------------
Death: 0727[5],[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 715-727
'Murchad mac Brain Muit (of Uí Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d.
727 [AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); LL.337f (CGH.433), WUD]
(also #35072) '[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: Conchenn ingen Cellaig Cualain
Father: Cellach Cualann mac Gerthide (-0715)
Mother: Mugain ingen Faílbe
Children: Donchad (-0728)
Faelan (-0738)
Bran Becc (-0738)
Muiredach (-0760) [ancestor of
Mor ingen Muirchertaig Ua Tuathail, wife
of 'Dermot mac Murrough' below
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Faelan mac Murchada
----------------------------------------
Death: 0738[5],[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], to 738
'Fáelán mac Murchada, king of Laigin (ancestor of the Uí Fáeláin
branch of Uí Dúnlainge), d. 738 [AU] [R.117c=BB.138a (Rw.13, CGH.13);
R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); LL337f (CGH.423)] '[5]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Spouse: NN
Children: Ruaidri (-0785)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Ruaidri mac Fáeláin
----------------------------------------
Death: 0785[2]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 776-785
'Ruaidri mac Fáeláin (of the Uí Fáeláin branch of Uí Dúnlainge),
king of Laigin, d. 785 [AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); LL337f
(CGH.423)] '[6]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Muredach (-0829)
Diarmaid (-0832)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Diarmaid mac Ruadrach
----------------------------------------
Death: 0832[6]
younger son
king of Airthir Liphi
'Diarmait mac Ruadrach (of the Uí Fáeláin branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), king of Airthir Liphi, d. 832 [AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); LL337f (CGH.423)] '[6]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Muirecán (-0863)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Muirecán mac Diarmata
----------------------------------------
Death: 0863[2],[7]
king of Laigin [Leinster], 862-863
'Muirecán mac Diarmata (of the Uí Fáeláin branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), king of Laigin, d. 863 [AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); LL337f (CGH.423)] '[7]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Domnall (-0884)
Máel Mórda (-0917)
Cerball (-0909)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Máel Mórda mac Muirecáin
----------------------------------------
Death: 0917[7]
king of Airthir Liphi
younger son
'Máel Mórda mac Muirecáin (of the Uí Fáeláin branch of Uí
Dúnlainge), king of Airthir Liphi, d. 917 (killed in the Battle of
Cennfuait by Sitric ua Imair, #272) [AU] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); LL337f (CGH.423)] '[7]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Broen (-0947)
Finn (-0923)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Finn mac Mael Mórda
----------------------------------------
Death: 0923[8],[7]
younger son
'Finn mac Máel Mórda (of the Uí Fáeláin branch of Uí Dúnlainge),
rígdamna of Laigin, d. 923 [AU] [R.117c=LL334c (Rw.13, CGH.13);
R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14); LL337f (CGH.423)] [Note: There is some
disagreement about the exact meaning of the term rígdamna. "Prince"
or "royal heir" are two possible translations which have been
suggested.] '[7]
' Finn mac Mael Morda, d. 923 ' [AU[8]]
cf. Moody, A New History of Ireland IX:134, Kings of Leinster[2]
Children: Murchad (-ca0972)
[END of Part I: to be continued]
Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: the Uí Dúnlainge
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: the Uí Dúnlainge
John P. Ravilious wrote:
Amazing work John- as always.
As this sprang from the DNA discussions, it forcibly reminded me of the
strange fact that my de facto sister-in-law is matrilineally, ergo
mitochondrially, descended from Eva of Leinster; and if there is one
such descent there are presumably many, many more. I say 'strange'
because it's been observed how a lot of these matrilineal lines
(including my own) tend to obscurity after fairly few generations- eg
QE II and Diana's; my sis-in-law isn't herself titled, but the lineage
only rarely strays from CP, and the 'paper-trail' seems sound. Whether
this will prove to be of use one day who knows- fortunately she has a
daughter of her own, who in turn has two daughters, so this particular
strand is continuing.
-Matthew
The ongoing discussion re: Niall of the Nine Hostages, DNA, & c.
brings up the matter of specific documented (vs. alleged) descents
from the early Irish kings. One such descent is given below, that of
Aoife (or Eva), wife of William Marshall and daughter of Diarmaid mac
Murchada [aka 'Dermot MacMurrough']
(snip)
Amazing work John- as always.
As this sprang from the DNA discussions, it forcibly reminded me of the
strange fact that my de facto sister-in-law is matrilineally, ergo
mitochondrially, descended from Eva of Leinster; and if there is one
such descent there are presumably many, many more. I say 'strange'
because it's been observed how a lot of these matrilineal lines
(including my own) tend to obscurity after fairly few generations- eg
QE II and Diana's; my sis-in-law isn't herself titled, but the lineage
only rarely strays from CP, and the 'paper-trail' seems sound. Whether
this will prove to be of use one day who knows- fortunately she has a
daughter of her own, who in turn has two daughters, so this particular
strand is continuing.
-Matthew
-
John Brandon
Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: the Uí Dúnlainge
a lot of these matrilineal lines (including my own) tend to obscurity after fairly few
generations- eg QE II and Diana's
I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line. I find the topic very
interesting. As I mentioned last May, my earliest known matrilineal
ancestor was Agnes, daughter of the Revd John Hart, minister of
Taughboyne, co. Donegal, Ireland (fl. late 1600s).
-
Gjest
Re: Female lines, was: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster
John Brandon wrote:
That's a lot better than my line, which currently terminates with one
Ann MacIver, who was alive- and fertile- in Dingwall (Scotland) in
1814. Unfortunately, certain name combinations are very common in the
Highlands so it may be difficult going any further; I have another
ancestor of the same name in the next generation, for instance.
I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line. I find the topic very
interesting. As I mentioned last May, my earliest known matrilineal
ancestor was Agnes, daughter of the Revd John Hart, minister of
Taughboyne, co. Donegal, Ireland (fl. late 1600s).
That's a lot better than my line, which currently terminates with one
Ann MacIver, who was alive- and fertile- in Dingwall (Scotland) in
1814. Unfortunately, certain name combinations are very common in the
Highlands so it may be difficult going any further; I have another
ancestor of the same name in the next generation, for instance.
-
David Teague
Re: Female lines, was: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster
I know what you mean. My own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line only goes back
6 generations, to a Martha Ann (Richardson) Hasty, b. in what was then Anson
Co., N.C., sometime around 1820.
David Teague
6 generations, to a Martha Ann (Richardson) Hasty, b. in what was then Anson
Co., N.C., sometime around 1820.
David Teague
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Female lines, was: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster
Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:51:58 -0800
John Brandon wrote:
I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line. I find the topic very
interesting. As I mentioned last May, my earliest known matrilineal
ancestor was Agnes, daughter of the Revd John Hart, minister of
Taughboyne, co. Donegal, Ireland (fl. late 1600s).
That's a lot better than my line, which currently terminates with one
Ann MacIver, who was alive- and fertile- in Dingwall (Scotland) in
1814. Unfortunately, certain name combinations are very common in the
Highlands so it may be difficult going any further; I have another
ancestor of the same name in the next generation, for instance.
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: the Uí Dún lainge
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
very interesting: if she gets DNA sequenced, she will probably
win the oldest mtDNA sweekstakes, as at least in my files
the maternal line goes back two more generations from Eve of Leinster
Doug McDonald
As this sprang from the DNA discussions, it forcibly reminded me of the
strange fact that my de facto sister-in-law is matrilineally, ergo
mitochondrially, descended from Eva of Leinster;
very interesting: if she gets DNA sequenced, she will probably
win the oldest mtDNA sweekstakes, as at least in my files
the maternal line goes back two more generations from Eve of Leinster
Doug McDonald
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: the Uí Dún lainge
John Brandon wrote:
Mine mtDNA dead end is a rather blah woman named Sarah Clawson,
d. 1847.
My father's maternal line, however, goes back to a woman
who may have been an Indian. We await a DNA test results of my cousin.
Doug McDonald
a lot of these matrilineal lines (including my own) tend to obscurity after fairly few
generations- eg QE II and Diana's
I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line.
Mine mtDNA dead end is a rather blah woman named Sarah Clawson,
d. 1847.
My father's maternal line, however, goes back to a woman
who may have been an Indian. We await a DNA test results of my cousin.
Doug McDonald