Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

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Brad Verity

Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 18 jan 2006 02:37:26

In Douglas Richardson's PA3, sub Danby, the marriage of Elizabeth
Chaworth to John, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, is discussed. Also
discussed is a previous marriage for the 4th Lord Scrope that is not
covered in CP.

PA3[p. 254]: "He [4th Lord Scrope of Masham] was married previously to
Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke, Knt., 4th Lord Greystoke,
by Elizabeth, daughter and co-heiress of Robert Ferrers, Knt., 2nd Lord
Ferrers of Wem. They had no issue."

Apparently the sources Douglas used for this Scrope of Masham/Greystoke
marriage were N.H. Nicolas 'Controversy between Scrope and Grosvenor' 2
(1832), pp. 134-137: "(identifies 1st wife as "Elizabeth, dau. of
Ralph, Lord Greystock")"; and W. Flower 'Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4'
(H.S.P. 16) (1881): 151: "(Greystoke pedigree: "Matilda [Greystoke]
nupta Domino Scrope de Upsall sans issu.")".

I have no access (unfortunately - I'd love to see it someday) to the
Nicolas 'Scrope and Grosvenor' book, but I did look at the 1563-4
Visitation of Yorkshire Greystoke pedigree, which does indeed give
John, 4th Lord Greystoke & Elizabeth Ferrers a daughter Matilda married
to Domino Scrope of Upsall, without issue.

Going further back, to the Visitation of the North 1480-1500, published
by the Surtees Society, in the Greystoke pedigree, as daughter of John
4th Lord & Elizabeth Ferrers, is "Matildis nupta domino Scrop de
Vpshall et obijt sine prole". This is also the case in the Neville
pedigree, which takes it one step further, giving "Elizabeth nupta
baroni de Graystok" a daughter "Matildis nupta Iohanni domino Scrope de
Vpshall".

But this creates chronological difficulties. Elizabeth Ferrers, lady
of Wem, and John, 4th Lord Greystoke, were married in October 1407, so
the soonest a child could be born to them is 1408. Here are dates of
marriage for some of their offspring:

A) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke, married 1436 (Papal dispensation 1 July),
Elizabeth Fitzhugh
B) Joan Greystoke, married before 1424, Sir John Darcy, born 13 Nov.
1406, and had her eldest son about 1424.
C) Anne Greystoke, married 1433 (dispensation 18 Feb.), Sir Ralph
Bigod, born about 1410.
D) Elizabeth Greystoke, married before 1428, Roger Thornton
E) Eleanor Greystoke, married Sir Ralph Eure. The dates of their
marriage and of his birth are not known, but his parents had license to
marry in Jan. 1411, so he was born after that.

From the above, it would be expected that Maud Greystoke, if daughter
of John, 4th Lord Greystoke, married in the 1420s or 1430s. But John,

4th Lord Scrope of Masham, was married to his second wife Elizabeth
Chaworth before 24 August 1418. So any first wife had to have been
dead by then.

Even if Maud Greystoke was the eldest child of John, 4th Lord
Greystoke, she could not have been born before 1408, making her age 10
at the most when she died. This would make sense if her husband was
also a child, but John, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham was born about 1388,
so at least 20 years Maud's senior if she was daughter of John
Greystoke. We don't have a birthdate for Elizabeth Chaworth, but we
know her parents Thomas Chaworth and Nicola Braybrooke were married in
1394.

There is nothing in the evidence, though, that says Maud Greystoke
married the 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, other than the given name of
'Johanni' for her husband in the Neville pedigree of the 1480-1500
Visitation of the North.

What is more likely is that if John, 4th Lord Greystoke & Elizabeth
Ferrers had a daughter named Maud who married a John Scrope of Masham,
it was not John, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, but his eldest surviving
son John Scrope (d. 1452), who was her husband. It's documented in his
will that he was married to Margaret Dacre, daughter of Thomas, 6th
Lord Dacre and Philippa Nevill. But he was born in the 1420s (perhaps
earlier), so there is time for him to have made a marriage prior to the
Dacre one. He died without issue.

The Scropes of Masham and the Greystoke families remained closely
allied in the 15th century. In May 1453, a mere 8 months after the
death of John Scrope of Masham, eldest son of the 4th Lord, the
23-year-old next brother and heir Thomas (later 5th Lord Scrope of
Masham) married Elizabeth Greystoke, daughter of Ralph, 5th Lord
Greystoke and Elizabeth Fitzhugh, and thus a niece of Maud Greystoke.
Curiously, in the Greystoke pedigree of the 1480-1500 Visitation of the
North, Elizabeth Greystoke's husband is called "Iohannes dominus Scrop
de Vpshall".

And what of Nicolas, in his 'Scrope and Grosvenor' book, identifying a
first wife for John, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, as "Elizabeth, daughter
of Ralph, Lord Greystock"? Without seeing the book, I don't know what
is his evidence for this. Ralph, 3rd Lord Greystoke (d. 1418) and his
wife Katherine Clifford (d. 1413 - she is called "Isabella" in the
Greystoke Visitation pedigrees of 1480-1500 & 1563/4) have no daughter
married to a Scrope of Upsall in the pedigrees, nor a daughter named
Elizabeth. The only two daughters given for them are Maud, married to
"domino de Welles" and Joan, married to "Willelmo Bowys militi".

This is another example of how information in a Visitation pedigree
needs to be double checked with available contemporary documentation
and known chronology.

Cheers, --------Brad

Douglas Richardson

Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 jan 2006 08:14:44

Dear Brad ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Yes, you are correct. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004),
pg. 254, as well as Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp.
742-743, states that John le Scrope, Knt. (died 1455), 4th Lord Scrope
of Masham, married (1st) Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
Knt., 4th Lord Greystoke, by his wife, Elizabeth Ferrers. This
marriage is attested by two Greystoke pedigrees, one of which is drawn
from the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North and one from the 1564-4
Visitation of Yorkshire, both of which sources are in print. The first
visitation is extremely accurate, and should be given the most
consideration due to two factors: (1) it is much earlier and closer to
the events in question; and (2) it is more reliable than the 1563-4
visitation. As you have noted, the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North
specifically states that Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
4th Lord Greystoke, married "Lord Scrope of Upshall" and died without
issue. I might point out that it did not say she married Lord Scrope's
younger son, as you have construed it to read.

Inasmuch as the 1480-1500 Visitation is very reliable, and inasmuch as
the ONLY Lord Scrope available to marry Maud Greystoke is John le
Scrope, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham (also known as of Upsall), I conclude
that the visitation is sound and that Maud was in fact this John le
Scrope's 1st wife. Yes, admittedly the chronology is tight. But, it
is certainly not impossible, particularly in an age of child bride
marriages. If at some point, however, you should find evidence which
sheds additional light on the matter, I would certainly like to know
about it. It would be great to have more evidence than a visitation,
albeit a reliable one, to vouch for this marriage.

For interest's sake, I've copied below the information on Sir John le
Scrope and his two wives, Maud Greystoke and Elizabeth Chaworth, taken
from Magna Carta Ancestry (2005). I've listed all my sources.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp. 742-743.

7. JOHN LE SCROPE, Knt., 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, Privy Councillor,
Treasurer of England, 4th son, born about 1388 (aged 30 years in 1418).
He married (1st) MAUD GREYSTOKE, daughter of John Greystoke, Knt., 4th
Lord Greystoke, by Elizabeth, daughter and co-heiress of Robert
Ferrers, Knt., 2nd Lord Ferrers of Wem. They had no issue. He was
heir in 1415 to his older brother, Henry le Scrope, K.G., 3rd Lord
Scope of Masham. He married (2nd) before 24 August 1418 ELIZABETH
CHAWORTH, daughter of Thomas Chaworth, Knt., of Wiverton,
Nottinghamshire, and Alfreton and Norton, Derbyshire, by his 1st wife,
Nichole, daughter of Gerard Braybrooke, Knt. [see SHIRLEY 9.i for her
ancestry]. They had three sons, Henry, John, Esq., and Thomas, Knt.
[4th Lord Scrope of Masham], and five daughters, Magistrix, Eleanor,
Anne, Elizabeth, and Elizabeth (again). He was admitted to the Guild
of Corpus Christi, York, 1416-1417. He was summoned to Parliament
from 7 Jan. 1425/6 by writs directed Johanni Lescrop de Masham. SIR
JOHN LE SCROPE, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, died testate 15 Nov. 1455,
and was buried at York Cathedral. His widow, Elizabeth, took the veil
13 Dec. 1455, and is said to have died in 1466.

References:

Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790):
197-199. Nichols, Hist. & Antiqs. of Leicestershire 2(2) (1798): 477
(Scrope pedigree). Blore, Hist. & Antiqs. of Rutland 1(2) (1811): 8
(Scrope pedigree). Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2
(1832): 134-137 (identifies 1st wife as "Elizabeth, dau. of Ralph,
Lord Greystock"). Coll. Top. & Gen. 2 (1835): 148-149. Mundy et
al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 123-128
(Chaworth pedigree: "Elizabeth [Chaworth] heire to her mother ux.
John Lord Scroope of Vpsall and Massam"). Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire
1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 151 (Greystoke pedigree: "Matilda
[Greystoke] nupta Domino Scrope de Upsall sans issu."), 278-281
(Scrope pedigree: "John Lord Scrope of Upsall = Elsabeth doughter of
Sir Thomas Chaworth, son of William."). List of Early Chancery
Procs. 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 12) (1901): 67. Genealogist n.s. 20
(1904): 162. Baildon, Baildon & Baildons 1 (1912): 554-560, 570.
Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 22 (1913): 226-230; 27 (1924): 154; 28 (1926):
72-73. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages of the Northern Counties
(1913): 204 (P.C., employed in Diplomatic missions, and in the wars in
France, see D.N.B.). Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235 (John
Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, styled "cousin" by John le Scrope,
Lord Scrope). C.P. 11 (1949): 543, 566-568 (sub Scrope); 12(2)
(1959): 441 (sub Welles). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 492: 1
(identification of children). Pugh, Henry V & Southampton Plot of 1415
(1988): 109-121. Payling, Political Soc. in Lancastrian England
(1991): 232. Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office:
Peake (Nevill of Holt) MSS, Reference: DE221/2/1/11, granted dated 3
Dec. 1424 from Thomas Chaworth, Knt. to John, Lord Lescrop & Elizabeth
his wife a certain annual rent of 40 marks issucing from his manor of
Medbourne in county of Leicester to hold to John and Elizabeth for the
term of their term of their lives (abstract of document available
online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

Brad Verity

Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 18 jan 2006 20:44:41

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

No problem. Thanks for the response. Comments interspersed.

Yes, you are correct. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004),
pg. 254, as well as Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp.
742-743, states that John le Scrope, Knt. (died 1455), 4th Lord Scrope
of Masham, married (1st) Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
Knt., 4th Lord Greystoke, by his wife, Elizabeth Ferrers.

OK.

This
marriage is attested by two Greystoke pedigrees, one of which is drawn
from the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North and one from the 1564-4
Visitation of Yorkshire, both of which sources are in print.

Neither of these sources state that Maud marrried, specifically, John,
4th Lord Scrope of Masham. The 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire
Greystoke pedigree states, "Matilda nupta Domino Scrope de Upsall sans
issu". The 1480-1500 Visitation of the North Greystoke pedigree
states, "Matildis nupta domino Scrop de Vpshall et obijt sine prole",
and the Neville pedigree in the same Visitation states "Matildis nupta
Iohanni domino Scrope de Vpshall".

The first
visitation is extremely accurate, and should be given the most
consideration due to two factors: (1) it is much earlier and closer to
the events in question; and (2) it is more reliable than the 1563-4
visitation.

Agreed. But why then did you not cite it as a source in PA3 or the MCA
references you provide below? You use the Visitation of Yorkshire
source instead.

As you have noted, the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North
specifically states that Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
4th Lord Greystoke, married "Lord Scrope of Upshall" and died without
issue.

Yes, in the Greystoke pedigree.

I might point out that it did not say she married Lord Scrope's
younger son, as you have construed it to read.

John Scrope, esquire (d. 1452) was the heir to his father for most, if
not all, of his life, as his elder brother Henry died in infancy. In
his own will, he calls himself "Johannes Lescrop, filius et heres
Johannis domini Lescrop". So he was never a "younger son", except
perhaps in his infancy.

Inasmuch as the 1480-1500 Visitation is very reliable,

Agreed, but errors do occur. In the Greystoke pedigree from that
Visitation, Elizabeth, daughter of Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke, is stated
to have "renupta Iohannes dominus Scrop de Vpshall" when in actuality,
her husband was named Thomas, not John.

and inasmuch as
the ONLY Lord Scrope available to marry Maud Greystoke is John le
Scrope, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham (also known as of Upsall),

He's not the only one available. His son and heir John is also
available, and fits in much better chronologically. If you are
implying that "domino" has to mean "baron" or "lord", that's not the
case. In the Neville pedigree in the 1480-1500 Visitation of the
North, an unnamed daughter of Philippa Nevill and Thomas, Lord Dacre,
is stated, "nupta Domino le Scrope de Vpshal", and in the Henry VII
Relations pedigrees compiled about 1505, an unnamed daughter of
Philippa Lady Dacre is stated "wedded to the Lord Scrope of Upsal". We
know this is referring to Margaret Dacre, wife of John le Scrope,
esquire (d. 1452), son and heir of the 4th Lord Scrope of Masham.

If he's referred to as a "Lord" or "Domino" in those pedigrees, he
could have been referred the same way in the Greystoke ones.

I conclude
that the visitation is sound and that Maud was in fact this John le
Scrope's 1st wife.

I also conclude the visitation is sound, but I don't conclude Maud was
the first wife of the 4th Lord Scrope.

Yes, admittedly the chronology is tight. But, it
is certainly not impossible, particularly in an age of child bride
marriages.

The chronology is close to impossible. Let's say Maud Greystoke was
the firstborn child of Elizabeth Ferrers and John, 4th Lord Greystoke.
Even though all evidence points to Joan being their firstborn child.
Not just the name 'Joan', with Elizabeth wanting to name her first
daughter after her own formidable mother Joan (Beaufort), countess of
Westmorland, but also because Joan Greystoke Darcy was a mother herself
in 1424. But let's put Maud as firstborn, and even make her born right
after her parents wed, so born in 1408. Maud would have been heir to
the Greystoke barony only until her younger siblings were born, and
evidence indicates they followed her into the world rather quickly.
So, Maud the bride was not a direct heir, and what of John the groom?
Up until 1415, John, the future 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, was a
younger brother of Henry, 3rd Lord Scrope of Masham. And not even the
immediate heir to the childless Henry, for there were two brothers,
Geoffrey and Stephen, before him, until both died in 1418. Then of
course in 1415, the Scropes of Masham suffer loss of lands and
respectability with the execution and attainder of the 3rd Lord Scrope
due to his involvement in the Southampton Plot. It wasn't until 1425
that John, 4th Lord Scrope, recovered the barony and most (but not all)
of the lands, by using the fraudulent claim that those lands were
entailed.

Doesn't it make more sense for John Scrope, a younger son of a baronial
family, to not have had an infant first wife (who would bring him
nothing but a marriage portion) when he was in his twenties, but to
have married a lady only a few years younger than him - Elizabeth
Chaworth, who was the only child and heiress of her mother Nichole
Braybrooke, and could bring lands and an inheritance to the match?

If at some point, however, you should find evidence which
sheds additional light on the matter, I would certainly like to know
about it.

I'll do so.

It would be great to have more evidence than a visitation,
albeit a reliable one, to vouch for this marriage.

Is the lack of evidence outside of visitation pedigrees the reason you
didn't post on this first marriage for the 4th Lord Scrope of Masham to
the newsgroup as a CP Addition?

For interest's sake, I've copied below the information on Sir John le
Scrope and his two wives,

You've copied below the information on Sir John le Scrope and what you
believe to be, his two wives.

Maud Greystoke and Elizabeth Chaworth, taken
from Magna Carta Ancestry (2005). I've listed all my sources.

Great. And I see they match exactly to the ones from PA3, with two
additions: The reference of John Talbot as "cousin" of John le Scrope
(from the Catalogue of Ancient Deeds), and the A2A database abstract of
the 1424 grant of income to the couple from Thomas Chaworth.

It's curious that among all the references, you don't include the will
of John, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, published in 'Testamenta
Eboracensia', ii, pp. 184-193.

[snip]
They had three sons, Henry, John, Esq., and Thomas, Knt.
[4th Lord Scrope of Masham], and five daughters, Magistrix, Eleanor,
Anne, Elizabeth, and Elizabeth (again).

And what do you make of the first name 'Magistrix'? I've never seen it
before or since. Of course, it probably never existed. From
'Testamenta Eboracensia', ii, p. 161: "Item lego Magistrici sorori meae
sex cocliaria argenti de Parysh. [footnote: In all probability, the
lady who is mentioned in this respectful manner was Eleanor Scrope, the
testator's sister, and the widow of Richard Darcy, Esq. son and heir of
Sir John Darcy of Hirst, Knight. Her husband had just died, leaving
behind him an infant son and heir, William Darcy. She passed her
widowhood in her father's house, but it was not of a long duration, as
she remarried William Claxton, Esq. in 1460. Sir Harris Nicolas, in
his invaluable publication the Scrope and Grosvenor Roll, adds
Magistrix to the pedigree of Scrope of Upsal, as a lady's name, but in
this he must certainly be mistaken.]"

[snip]
His widow, Elizabeth, took the veil 13 Dec. 1455, and is said to have died in 1466.

Said by whom, to have died in 1466? And you've left out the fact that
administration for her was granted 12 March 1467, so she was certainly
dead by then.

[snip of the references]

Cheers, --------Brad

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 19 jan 2006 00:00:02

Dear Douglas and Brad
Thankyou for the interesting information abut the Greystoke/le Scrope
marriage.
I notice, Doug, that you referred to having the ancestry of Nichole
Braybrooke. Any chance of seeing that?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 01/18/06 17:53:16
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Dear Brad ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Yes, you are correct. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004),
pg. 254, as well as Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp.
742-743, states that John le Scrope, Knt. (died 1455), 4th Lord Scrope
of Masham, married (1st) Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
Knt., 4th Lord Greystoke, by his wife, Elizabeth Ferrers. This
marriage is attested by two Greystoke pedigrees, one of which is drawn
from the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North and one from the 1564-4
Visitation of Yorkshire, both of which sources are in print. The first
visitation is extremely accurate, and should be given the most
consideration due to two factors: (1) it is much earlier and closer to
the events in question; and (2) it is more reliable than the 1563-4
visitation. As you have noted, the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North
specifically states that Maud Greystoke, daughter of John Greystoke,
4th Lord Greystoke, married "Lord Scrope of Upshall" and died without
issue. I might point out that it did not say she married Lord Scrope's
younger son, as you have construed it to read.

Inasmuch as the 1480-1500 Visitation is very reliable, and inasmuch as
the ONLY Lord Scrope available to marry Maud Greystoke is John le
Scrope, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham (also known as of Upsall), I conclude
that the visitation is sound and that Maud was in fact this John le
Scrope's 1st wife. Yes, admittedly the chronology is tight. But, it
is certainly not impossible, particularly in an age of child bride
marriages. If at some point, however, you should find evidence which
sheds additional light on the matter, I would certainly like to know
about it. It would be great to have more evidence than a visitation,
albeit a reliable one, to vouch for this marriage.

For interest's sake, I've copied below the information on Sir John le
Scrope and his two wives, Maud Greystoke and Elizabeth Chaworth, taken
from Magna Carta Ancestry (2005). I've listed all my sources.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp. 742-743.

7. JOHN LE SCROPE, Knt., 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, Privy Councillor,
Treasurer of England, 4th son, born about 1388 (aged 30 years in 1418).
He married (1st) MAUD GREYSTOKE, daughter of John Greystoke, Knt., 4th
Lord Greystoke, by Elizabeth, daughter and co-heiress of Robert
Ferrers, Knt., 2nd Lord Ferrers of Wem. They had no issue. He was
heir in 1415 to his older brother, Henry le Scrope, K.G., 3rd Lord
Scope of Masham. He married (2nd) before 24 August 1418 ELIZABETH
CHAWORTH, daughter of Thomas Chaworth, Knt., of Wiverton,
Nottinghamshire, and Alfreton and Norton, Derbyshire, by his 1st wife,
Nichole, daughter of Gerard Braybrooke, Knt. [see SHIRLEY 9.i for her
ancestry]. They had three sons, Henry, John, Esq., and Thomas, Knt.
[4th Lord Scrope of Masham], and five daughters, Magistrix, Eleanor,
Anne, Elizabeth, and Elizabeth (again). He was admitted to the Guild
of Corpus Christi, York, 1416-1417. He was summoned to Parliament
from 7 Jan. 1425/6 by writs directed Johanni Lescrop de Masham. SIR
JOHN LE SCROPE, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, died testate 15 Nov. 1455,
and was buried at York Cathedral. His widow, Elizabeth, took the veil
13 Dec. 1455, and is said to have died in 1466.

References:

Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790):
197-199. Nichols, Hist. & Antiqs. of Leicestershire 2(2) (1798): 477
(Scrope pedigree). Blore, Hist. & Antiqs. of Rutland 1(2) (1811): 8
(Scrope pedigree). Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2
(1832): 134-137 (identifies 1st wife as "Elizabeth, dau. of Ralph,
Lord Greystock"). Coll. Top. & Gen. 2 (1835): 148-149. Mundy et
al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 123-128
(Chaworth pedigree: "Elizabeth [Chaworth] heire to her mother ux.
John Lord Scroope of Vpsall and Massam"). Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire
1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 151 (Greystoke pedigree: "Matilda
[Greystoke] nupta Domino Scrope de Upsall sans issu."), 278-281
(Scrope pedigree: "John Lord Scrope of Upsall = Elsabeth doughter of
Sir Thomas Chaworth, son of William."). List of Early Chancery
Procs. 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 12) (1901): 67. Genealogist n.s. 20
(1904): 162. Baildon, Baildon & Baildons 1 (1912): 554-560, 570.
Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 22 (1913): 226-230; 27 (1924): 154; 28 (1926):
72-73. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages of the Northern Counties
(1913): 204 (P.C., employed in Diplomatic missions, and in the wars in
France, see D.N.B.). Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235 (John
Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, styled "cousin" by John le Scrope,
Lord Scrope). C.P. 11 (1949): 543, 566-568 (sub Scrope); 12(2)
(1959): 441 (sub Welles). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 492: 1
(identification of children). Pugh, Henry V & Southampton Plot of 1415
(1988): 109-121. Payling, Political Soc. in Lancastrian England
(1991): 232. Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office:
Peake (Nevill of Holt) MSS, Reference: DE221/2/1/11, granted dated 3
Dec. 1424 from Thomas Chaworth, Knt. to John, Lord Lescrop & Elizabeth
his wife a certain annual rent of 40 marks issucing from his manor of
Medbourne in county of Leicester to hold to John and Elizabeth for the
term of their term of their lives (abstract of document available
online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

Douglas Richardson

Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 jan 2006 00:01:02

My comments are interspersed below. DR

Brad Verity wrote:

He's not the only one available. His son and heir John is also
available, and fits in much better chronologically. If you are
implying that "domino" has to mean "baron" or "lord", that's not the
case. In the Neville pedigree in the 1480-1500 Visitation of the
North, an unnamed daughter of Philippa Nevill and Thomas, Lord Dacre,
is stated, "nupta Domino le Scrope de Vpshal", and in the Henry VII
Relations pedigrees compiled about 1505, an unnamed daughter of
Philippa Lady Dacre is stated "wedded to the Lord Scrope of Upsal". We
know this is referring to Margaret Dacre, wife of John le Scrope,
esquire (d. 1452), son and heir of the 4th Lord Scrope of Masham.

Excellent point. Usually when the visitations refer to Lord so-and-so,
they are referring to someone who has been summoned to Parliament, not
his heir apparent. However, you have pointed out two cases where John,
son and heir apparent of John, Lord Scrope, is in fact called "Lord
Scrope of Upsal" in the two different visitations. As such, I believe
you have made your case. Nice work, Brad.

The chronology is close to impossible.

If I had to judge the matter purely on chronology (as I often do), I'd
say you are correct. John le Scrope and Maud Greystoke's father, John
Greystoke, were virtually the same age. Under normal conditions, one
would expect John le Scrope to marry a sister of John Greystoke, not
his daughter. Or, conversely, one would expect Maud Greystoke to have
married a son of John le Scrope, not John himself.

Another point in your favor is that Maud Greystoke is not named as the
wife of John le Scrope, 4th Lord Scrope of Masham, in the Scrope
pedigree found in the 1563-4 Visitation of Yorkshire. His only wife
named in that pedigree in Elizabeth Chaworth.

Doesn't it make more sense for John Scrope, a younger son of a baronial
family, to not have had an infant first wife (who would bring him
nothing but a marriage portion) when he was in his twenties, but to
have married a lady only a few years younger than him - Elizabeth
Chaworth, who was the only child and heiress of her mother Nichole
Braybrooke, and could bring lands and an inheritance to the match?

Excellent point. Again, the tight chronology favors your argument.

And what do you make of the first name 'Magistrix'? I've never seen it
before or since. Of course, it probably never existed. From
'Testamenta Eboracensia', ii, p. 161: "Item lego Magistrici sorori meae
sex cocliaria argenti de Parysh. [footnote: In all probability, the
lady who is mentioned in this respectful manner was Eleanor Scrope, the
testator's sister, and the widow of Richard Darcy, Esq. son and heir of
Sir John Darcy of Hirst, Knight. Her husband had just died, leaving
behind him an infant son and heir, William Darcy. She passed her
widowhood in her father's house, but it was not of a long duration, as
she remarried William Claxton, Esq. in 1460. Sir Harris Nicolas, in
his invaluable publication the Scrope and Grosvenor Roll, adds
Magistrix to the pedigree of Scrope of Upsal, as a lady's name, but in
this he must certainly be mistaken.]"

Until now I've accepted Nicolas' placement of Magistrix as a daughter
of John le Scrope and Elizabeth Chaworth. However, like you, I've
never seen the name, Magistrix, before as a given name. Nor, for that
matter, have I seen a woman addressed such as a title. Be that as it
may, I agree that Testamenta Eboracensia is probably correct that it
was a term of courtesy. As such, I will remove "Magistrix" as a
daughter from my Scrope account. Thank you for bringing the comments
of Testament Eboracensia to my attention.

< > His widow, Elizabeth, took the veil 13 Dec. 1455, and is said to
have died in 1466.
< Said by whom, to have died in 1466? And you've left out the fact
that
< administration for her was granted 12 March 1467, so she was
certainly
< dead by then.

Thank you for this date. What is the source of the grant of the
administration?

Cheers, --------Brad

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Brad Verity

Re: Scrope of Masham/Greystoke Marriage(s)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 19 jan 2006 00:52:10

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Excellent point. Usually when the visitations refer to Lord so-and-so,
they are referring to someone who has been summoned to Parliament, not
his heir apparent. However, you have pointed out two cases where John,
son and heir apparent of John, Lord Scrope, is in fact called "Lord
Scrope of Upsal" in the two different visitations. As such, I believe
you have made your case. Nice work, Brad.

Thanks.

[snip]

Said by whom, to have died in 1466? And you've left out the fact
that
administration for her was granted 12 March 1467, so she was
certainly
dead by then.

Thank you for this date. What is the source of the grant of the
administration?

CP, Volume 11, p. 568. And CP's source was likely 'Testamenta
Eboracensia', iv, p. 72: "The father of the testator was Thomas, the
fifth baron of Masham, who, on March 12, 1466-7, along with Robert
Abbot, gent., administered to Elizabeth lady le Scrope, his mother, the
widow of John lord Scrope. (Reg. Test. Dec. et Capit. Ebor. i.
311b.)".

Cheers, --------Brad

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