Babthorpe of Osgodby/Sothill of Stockerston

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Brad Verity

Babthorpe of Osgodby/Sothill of Stockerston

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 17 jan 2006 19:07:11

Earlier last year, John Ravilious posted on the children of Henry
Sothill, esquire, of Stockerston, Leicestershire, and his wife Jane
Empson.

therav3@aol.com wrote:

I fairly certain that the two Henrys are not the same
person. Henry Sothill or Sotehill, Esq., of Stoke Faston,
Leicestershire (1st husband of Joan Empson) was Attorney-General
to Henry VII (Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st ed., p. 88). His
daughters were

(1) Elizabeth (d. 19 May 1575), wife of Sir William Drury
of Hawstead, Suffolk

(2) Joan (twin of Elizabeth), wife of John Constable, knt.

(3) Christiana, wife of William Babthorpe of Osgodby
(parentage noted in HSP 16, pedigree of Sowthyll ; also
pedigree of Girlington of Hackford, and note, p. 141)

The first two daughters above were indeed twin daughters of Henry and
Joan Sothill, but the last one, Christiana, was not their daughter.

Per the bio of her son Sir William Babthorpe (c.1490-1555) in HOP,
Christina was one generation back - the daughter of John Sothill,
esquire, of Stockerston, and a sister of Henry Sothill. Christina
Sothill married 1st, William Babthorpe, of Osgodby, Yorkshire, younger
brother of Sir Ralph Babthorpe, of Babthorpe. Their eldest son, Sir
William Babthorpe, MP, was born 1489/90 (age 11 at the death of his
father). William Babthorpe, husband of Christina, was named an
executor in the 1493 will of Christina's father, John Sothill. William
died 10 February 1501, and Christina married 2ndly, William Bedell, and
died 8 April 1540.

As for Christina Sothill's mother, chronology seems very tight for her
to have been the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (c.1461-1506), as
Christina was a mother herself in 1489/90. If Christina was John and
Elizabeth's first child, born about 1475/6, and was herself married
young to William Babthorpe, with their first child Sir William born
1489/90, it is just possible for her to have been Elizabeth's daughter.

Could she have been a daughter of John Sothill by a wife previous to
Elizabeth Plumpton? They were contracted to marry in 1463/4, when
Elizabeth was only age 3 (if her age of 3 in 1464 was accurate). We
don't know how old John was at the time, but if he was old enough to
have fathered a child previous, that would place Christina's birth
before 1463, and make her close to age 30 at her eldest son's birth,
and close to age 80 at her death. Not impossible, but somewhat
advanced ages for both events.

If Christina was an illegitimate daughter of John Sothill, her birth
could have been in the 1465-1475 range, which would be ideal. Yet
there is nothing other than the chronological difficulty to suggest
illegitimacy, and it seems unlikely the Babthorpes would have accepted
an illegitimate Sothill daughter when there were legitimate (though
younger) ones available.

The final possibility is that Christina was a younger sister, instead
of daughter, of John Sothill. This would make her daughter of Henry
Sothill, esquire, of Stockerston, by his wife Anne Boyville, heiress of
Stockerston. It may explain how she came to be misidentified as a
daughter of Henry Sothill and Joan Empson. We don't have dates for
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, other than knowing that Henry Sothill
died before his son John (d. 1494), and Anne died after her son, and
before her grandson Henry (d. 1506). Anne's father, John Boyville of
Stockerston, died in 1467.

So more research needs to be done to identify the exact parentage of
Christina Sothill Babthorpe, but it can be ruled out that she was a
daughter of Henry Sothill and Joan Empson.

Cheers, ----------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Babthorpe of Osgodby/Sothill of Stockerston

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 20 jan 2006 18:01:22

[Apologies for any double posting. The gateway seems to be broken
again, as neither John Higgins post or my reply below made it onto
Google's soc.genealogy.medieval.]

Dear John,

Comments interspersed.

From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net

This useful note regarding the parentage of Christina Sothill raises some
other questions regarding the family of Sothill of Stoke Faston [or
Stockerston].

It took me awhile to find Stoke Faston, Leicestershire! It doesn't
come up on a Google search. Then I didn't think it could be
Stockerston because John Sothill (d. 1494) mentions he wants to be
buried in St. Botolph of Stoke Faston, and the Stockerston church is
dedicated to St. Peter. Luckily, the VCH Leicestershire volume is
online, and I could verify Stockerston is indeed what used to be called
Stoke Faston. Then I re-read the will details and realized that John
Sothill said he wanted to be buried in the CHAPEL of St. Botolph at
Stockfaston.

Henry Sothill who mar. Joan Empson was son of John Sothill who mar.
Elizabeth Plumpton, and John in turn was son of Henry Sothill who mar. Anne
Boyville. What is the ancestry of the last-named Henry Sothill, and how is
he connected to the Yorkshire family? Back in 2002 John Ravilious, in one
of his extensive posts on this family, said this Henry was son of Sir Gerard
Soothill of Redbourne (d. 1410), but Brice Claggett quickly responded to say
that this Henry was son instead of John Soothill of West Rasen (d. 1445) and
thus grandson of Sir Gerard. The latter alternative seems better
chronologically, but I don't know what evidence supports it,

FWIW, the editors of 'Testamenta Eboracensia' say that Henry Sothill of
Stockerston was a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redbourne,
Lincolnshire. As a younger son, he may have married later in life,
waiting for the right heiress (and her property) to come along, as it
were.

and the very
confused visitation pedigrees of the family don't clearly support either
alternative (and in fact suggest a third but unlikely choice).

The Sothill pedigrees in the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire, which are
indeed very confused, are the only ones I've seen.

Also, the Sothill narrative in RPA (following its predecessor Faris' PA3)
says that both the Henry who mar. Joan Empson and his grandfather Henry who
mar. Anne Boyville held the post of King's Attorney General. Did both men
actually hold this job, or is this a mistake in one case or the other?

Well, 'Testamenta Eboracensia' says that Henry Sothill, father of John
Sothill, was a lawyer. They don't say anything about Henry Sothill,
husband of Joan Empson, being one. So my money's on the grandfather
Henry being the King's Attorney General.

Also, John Sothill (d. 1494), had, not just one, but TWO younger
brothers named Henry, both alive in 1493, so for all we know, one of
them could've been the King's Attorney General. One of them went on to
perform the will of their mother, Anne Boyville Sothill, at some point
before 1506.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»